2014-2015 NCAA football thread

[Jenksismyhero]

As much as I defend ND, I am not at all a fan of Kelly. The problem is that if you don't have personal knowledge of the university, you don't understand the difference between the university and the football program. The university, with little factual doubt, demands more academically of football players (and all athletes) than any FBS school except Northwestern and possibly Stanford. The university also holds football program itself accountable in ways that doesn't happen at other big time programs. At most SEC, ACC, and Big 12 schools, the football/basketball programs run pretty much unchecked. There is at least some accountability in the Big 10 and Pac 12, because most of those schools do have academic reputations, but even there (again except for NW and Stan) the athletic programs still have a lot more leeway than at ND.

 

I never wanted Kelly hired in the first place. He always seemed shady to me. Of course, I wanted Skip Holtz and he couldn't even manage to keep a job at South Florida, so I admit I didn't have the right alternative to Kelly.

 

The problem is that Kelly can't actually be tied to all of these problems. I truly believe that he was not involved in or even aware of all of these academic fraud problems, but I also believe that he has created a culture where this sort of thing seems to happen. Unfortunately it's going to be hard to fire him based on that.

 

Also, he gets to skate on the videographer accident because his boss was present at practice that day and supported the decision to run practice as usual. If anything, that has to get pinned on the AD (who I actually like much more than Kelly).

 

So the university is most definitely "special" among FBS institutions in how its athletic programs relate to the university as a whole, but the football program itself has become a lot less "special" under Kelly.

 

Again, just proving Magary's point - ND is different, you guys. It's not. It's really, really not.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

Doesn't bother me either if people are against ND, but when people falsely accuse someone I know of rape, then yeah, that bothers me. Maybe I just need to start sending screenshots to his attorney.

 

What will that accomplish?

[cabiness42]

Again, just proving Magary's point - ND is different, you guys. It's not. It's really, really not.

 

OK fine, you can say that all you want. Find me some schools where the coursework requirements for football players come close to that of ND. If "it's really, really not," then that should be very simple for you to do.

 

It's very easy for you to make any sort of claim you want if you don't back it up.

[Jenksismyhero]

OK fine, you can say that all you want. Find me some schools where the coursework requirements for football players come close to that of ND. If "it's really, really not," then that should be very simple for you to do.

 

It's very easy for you to make any sort of claim you want if you don't back it up.

 

Pretty much everyone agrees that Stanford is far and away the toughest academically for football. So the fact that ND continues to tout itself as "different" in that respect is ludicrous. Yes, it's got higher standards than some s*** school, but so what? Who decides that? ND. That doesn't make ND "special."

 

ND just has a bug up its ass about being different and special from the rest of college sports. Other than having their own TV deal - which by the way puts them way down the list of schools that make $$ from TV - they're a f***ing football program just like the rest of them. They have scandals (more than the average even!), they have academic issues, they have personnel issues, they have off-the-field issues, etc. etc. They are not "special" in any sense of the word.

 

And on top of all of that, ND fans STILL think they're some glorious program despite not having done jack s*** in football for how many decades now? 3 s***-bowl wins since 1995. Scheduling s*** schools like Navy and Purdue must be real tough. Hell, Illinois has 2 bowl wins in the same span and they are a TERRIBLE football program.

 

I love the stadium, I love the old uniform. I love watching some of those awesome night games on real grass. But Christ please WIN something before crowning yourselves as the best program to ever exist.

 

edit: actually I short changed the s*** program that is Illinois: they have the same amount of bowl wins in that span.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Chisoxfn]

Pretty much everyone agrees that Stanford is far and away the toughest academically for football. So the fact that ND continues to tout itself as "different" in that respect is ludicrous. Yes, it's got higher standards than some s*** school, but so what? Who decides that? ND. That doesn't make ND "special."

 

ND just has a bug up its ass about being different and special from the rest of college sports. Other than having their on TV deal - which by the way puts them way down the list of schools that make $$ from TV - they're a f***ing football program just like the rest of them. They have scandals (more than the average even!), they have academic issues, they have personnel issues, they have off-the-field issues, etc. etc. They are not "special" in any sense of the word.

 

And on top of all of that, ND fans STILL think they're some glorious program despite not having done jack s*** in football for how many decades now? 3 s***-bowl wins since 1995. Scheduling s*** schools like Navy and Purdue must be real tough. Hell, Illinois has 2 bowl wins in the same span and they are a TERRIBLE football program.

 

I love the stadium, I love the old uniform. I love watching some of those awesome night games on real grass. But Christ please WIN something before crowning yourselves as the best program to ever exist.

The one thing I'll never get is this ND is a phenomenal institution. While the athletes are held to a higher degree of standard, the school in and of itself, while good, is not the caliber of Stanford or Northwestern, not even close. In fact, in the big ten, there would be numerous schools that as a whole offer a superior education. That said, the alumni base is obviously very strong in the midwest. Notre Dame is much like USC out here, from an education perspective (not comparing anything other then the pure education; get by largely due to significant alumni base vs. necessarily being an extremely difficult school to get into).

[RockRaines]

OK fine, you can say that all you want. Find me some schools where the coursework requirements for football players come close to that of ND. If "it's really, really not," then that should be very simple for you to do.

 

It's very easy for you to make any sort of claim you want if you don't back it up.

How is theirs above and beyond any other school? (granted they do their own work)

[cabiness42]

How is theirs above and beyond any other school? (granted they do their own work)

 

General requirements for all students (including athletes):

 

1 course in University Seminar

1 course in Writing and Rhetoric

2 courses in mathematics

2 courses in science

1 course in history*

1 course in social science*

2 courses in philosophy*

2 courses in theology*

1 course in fine arts* or literature*

2 courses in physical education or ROTC

*A University seminar will fulfill one University requirement in one of these disciplines.

 

Now, the only exception that varsity athletes get is that their sport fulfills their physical education requirement for them. However, there are no courses in any of the above fields that are "dumbed down" versions just for athletes. All classes that athletes take are open to all students.

 

Of the general requirements, these have to be completed in the first year:

 

1 University Seminar

1 Writing and Rhetoric course

2 semesters of mathematics

2 semesters of a science or foreign language

2 courses in physical education or ROTC

1 additional University Requirement

 

Again, no exceptions for athletes other than phys ed.

 

 

 

[RockRaines]

So they have to have a liberal arts curriculum. Miami does that.

[cabiness42]

The one thing I'll never get is this ND is a phenomenal institution. While the athletes are held to a higher degree of standard, the school in and of itself, while good, is not the caliber of Stanford or Northwestern, not even close. In fact, in the big ten, there would be numerous schools that as a whole offer a superior education. That said, the alumni base is obviously very strong in the midwest. Notre Dame is much like USC out here, from an education perspective (not comparing anything other then the pure education; get by largely due to significant alumni base vs. necessarily being an extremely difficult school to get into).

 

ND's academic rankings are consistently ahead of all Big Ten schools except Northwestern and occasionally Michigan, especially when the rankings focus on undergraduate education. Also generally better than USC.

 

I think it's the combination of features.

 

ND is not the only Top 25 academic institution

ND is not the only school with multiple national championships

ND is not the only school that holds athletes to high academic standards.

 

ND is the only school that has consistently done all three, although Stanford clearly does the first and third things and is not far away from winning championships.

 

 

[cabiness42]

So they have to have a liberal arts curriculum. Miami does that.

 

So do all the Ivy League schools, but that's not really an apples to apples comparison when you add athletics into the mix.

[RockRaines]

So do all the Ivy League schools, but that's not really an apples to apples comparison when you add athletics into the mix.

Miami athletes took the same classes as me, however study tables (which they have at ND as well) gives athletes a pretty significant advantage

[Chisoxfn]

General requirements for all students (including athletes):

 

1 course in University Seminar

1 course in Writing and Rhetoric

2 courses in mathematics

2 courses in science

1 course in history*

1 course in social science*

2 courses in philosophy*

2 courses in theology*

1 course in fine arts* or literature*

2 courses in physical education or ROTC

*A University seminar will fulfill one University requirement in one of these disciplines.

 

Now, the only exception that varsity athletes get is that their sport fulfills their physical education requirement for them. However, there are no courses in any of the above fields that are "dumbed down" versions just for athletes. All classes that athletes take are open to all students.

 

Of the general requirements, these have to be completed in the first year:

 

1 University Seminar

1 Writing and Rhetoric course

2 semesters of mathematics

2 semesters of a science or foreign language

2 courses in physical education or ROTC

1 additional University Requirement

 

Again, no exceptions for athletes other than phys ed.

On its own, this post means absolutely nothing cause I have zero idea how that compares to most institutions. Although on that list, I see a few courses of complete and utter fluff in there. Not saying other classes don't have it, but I'm not really very impressed by that list.

[cabiness42]

Miami athletes took the same classes as me, however study tables (which they have at ND as well) gives athletes a pretty significant advantage

 

There aren't really any resources the players get that other students can't get. Of course for other students it costs money and takes effort to find them, but the resources are still available. In fact, some of the "best" tutors available at ND ended up making boatloads tutoring rich kids and the athletes ended up with leftovers.

[RockRaines]

There aren't really any resources the players get that other students can't get. Of course for other students it costs money and takes effort to find them, but the resources are still available. In fact, some of the "best" tutors available at ND ended up making boatloads tutoring rich kids and the athletes ended up with leftovers.

Literally no chance that is true. I'd love to see concrete evidence supporting that because there is no way ND would recruit even as close to as well as they do without fantastic resources dedicated to the players.

[cabiness42]

Literally no chance that is true. I'd love to see concrete evidence supporting that because there is no way ND would recruit even as close to as well as they do without fantastic resources dedicated to the players.

 

I know who were the best students in the math department (not me) and what they got paid for tutoring rich kids. I know who were not the best students in the math department (me) and what we got paid for tutoring athletes.

 

I'm not saying that the resources available to the players weren't great, and probably better than at most schools, but the rich kids at ND had every bit the resources and sometimes more.

[Jenksismyhero]

ND's academic rankings are consistently ahead of all Big Ten schools except Northwestern and occasionally Michigan, especially when the rankings focus on undergraduate education. Also generally better than USC.

 

I think it's the combination of features.

 

ND is not the only Top 25 academic institution

ND is not the only school with multiple national championships

ND is not the only school that holds athletes to high academic standards.

 

ND is the only school that has consistently done all three, although Stanford clearly does the first and third things and is not far away from winning championships.

 

Their last NC was nearly 30 years ago. I wouldn't call that "consistent."

[RockRaines]

I know who were the best students in the math department (not me) and what they got paid for tutoring rich kids. I know who were not the best students in the math department (me) and what we got paid for tutoring athletes.

 

I'm not saying that the resources available to the players weren't great, and probably better than at most schools, but the rich kids at ND had every bit the resources and sometimes more.

So the regular students have a dedicated facility only for the 85 richest students at the school?

[cabiness42]

So the regular students have a dedicated facility only for the 85 richest students at the school?

 

Well, if $500K homes two blocks from campus owned by their parents count as dedicated facilities, then yes.

[RockRaines]

Well, if $500K homes two blocks from campus owned by their parents count as dedicated facilities, then yes.

So no.

[cabiness42]

So no.

 

Well, the combined value of the living quarters of the 85 richest (non-freshmen) students did probably exceed the value of the athletic academic support center.

[RockRaines]

Well, the combined value of the living quarters of the 85 richest (non-freshmen) students did probably exceed the value of the athletic academic support center.

SO if other schools also have rich students AND the players have to take actual course load, you would say they are the same standard as Notre Dame?

[cabiness42]

SO if other schools also have rich students AND the players have to take actual course load, you would say they are the same standard as Notre Dame?

 

I think I noted in an earlier post. There are schools that hold their athletes to high academic standards, and there are schools that have had a high level of success on the field. There are very few schools that have done both. I can make you a Venn diagram if you need it.

 

 

[RockRaines]

I think I noted in an earlier post. There are schools that hold their athletes to high academic standards, and there are schools that have had a high level of success on the field. There are very few schools that have done both. I can make you a Venn diagram if you need it.

Sure, and please list all the schools that make athletes take a liberal arts course load.

Edited August 21, 2014 by RockRaines

[cabiness42]

Sure, and please list all the schools that do not make athletes take a liberal arts course load.

 

I don't really have the time to look up all the schools. If there is a particular school you think that has similar academic standards for athletes AND football achievement as ND, I'd be happy to discuss it.

[RockRaines]

I don't really have the time to look up all the schools. If there is a particular school you think that has similar academic standards for athletes AND football achievement as ND, I'd be happy to discuss it.

So, Athletes that take classes, and zero BCS bowl wins. Got it.