2014-2015 NCAA football thread

[IlliniKrush]

First back-to-back bowl appearances since 1991-1992, yet that earned him a pink slip. Talk about unrealistic expectations.

Are you really forgetting where we were at in 2011? You don't remember the collapse?

 

You may have been the only person who wanted to keep Zook around at that point.

 

I guess back to back bowl appearances = Illinois contract for life? Unrealistic expectations? Come on.

[bigruss]

Are you really forgetting where we were at in 2011? You don't remember the collapse?

 

You may have been the only person who wanted to keep Zook around at that point.

 

I guess back to back bowl appearances = Illinois contract for life? Unrealistic expectations? Come on.

Yea, looking at only that stat is terribly blinding, it gives no insight into the state of the program.

[Jenksismyhero]

All fair points but you guys seem to be ignoring the good. I'd love for Beckman to win 6 games and then lose 6. That would be better than where they are right now.

 

[IlliniKrush]

All fair points but you guys seem to be ignoring the good. I'd love for Beckman to win 6 games and then lose 6. That would be better than where they are right now.

I'm not trying to ignore the good, there was just more bad than good (and the future pointed towards real bad), and the good wasn't satisfying enough for where I think we all want this program to be.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm not trying to ignore the good, there was just more bad than good (and the future pointed towards real bad), and the good wasn't satisfying enough for where I think we all want this program to be.

 

I agree in the sense of wasted opportunities. But looking back, i'd take 3 bowl games including a BCS bowl game in what 7 seasons?

[whitesoxfan99]

Are you really forgetting where we were at in 2011? You don't remember the collapse?

 

You may have been the only person who wanted to keep Zook around at that point.

 

I guess back to back bowl appearances = Illinois contract for life? Unrealistic expectations? Come on.

 

We also were 2-6 in conference that year and finished tied for second to last in the conference that year. Finishing tied for 10th in a 12 team conference isn't exactly something that should keep you around as coach.

[LittleHurt05]

Yea, looking at only that stat is terribly blinding, it gives no insight into the state of the program.

 

The state of the program? Again, he ruined the program so badly that they made back-to-back bowl games for the first time in 20 years. That's the "state" of Illinois football.

[IlliniKrush]

The state of the program? Again, he ruined the program so badly that they made back-to-back bowl games for the first time in 20 years. That's the "state" of Illinois football.

And in that moment in time, which way was the arrow pointing?

[Jenksismyhero]

The state of the program? Again, he ruined the program so badly that they made back-to-back bowl games for the first time in 20 years. That's the "state" of Illinois football.

 

On top of taking over a program that was terrible the 4 years prior, winning 1 big ten conference game the 2 years prior to his first year. So he basically resurrected the program, made 3 bowl games in 5 years and won two of them, and that, for an awful football program, is not good enough.

 

Again, totally reasonable to let him go, and they should have earlier than they did, but people need some perspective on how good/bad he really was.

[gatnom]

The state of the program? Again, he ruined the program so badly that they made back-to-back bowl games for the first time in 20 years. That's the "state" of Illinois football.

 

You're not looking at trajectory. Last season was going to suck whether or not we had Zook at the helm. He lost all of his ace recruiters, and it showed. He may very well have won 6 forgettable games in 2012, but people would be calling for his head after it bottomed out last year. Saying Zook went to 2 straight bowls is like saying this Illinois team is 3-1, so we're looking good.

 

 

[whitesoxfan99]

On top of taking over a program that was terrible the 4 years prior, winning 1 big ten conference game the 2 years prior to his first year. So he basically resurrected the program, made 3 bowl games in 5 years and won two of them, and that, for an awful football program, is not good enough.

 

Again, totally reasonable to let him go, and they should have earlier than they did, but people need some perspective on how good/bad he really was.

 

Zook was the best of our last 4 coaches which speaks more to how bad the other 3 are then how good Zook is. It is telling that none of these guys have had any success anywhere else.

[LittleHurt05]

Are you really forgetting where we were at in 2011? You don't remember the collapse?

 

You may have been the only person who wanted to keep Zook around at that point.

 

I guess back to back bowl appearances = Illinois contract for life? Unrealistic expectations? Come on.

 

It was a back-loaded schedule vs 5 straight bowl-bound teams that included the rigged JoePa finale. Sure, they sucked against Minnesota at the end, but the rest of the schedule wasn't a cakewalk. Had the Indiana and Michigan games been reversed, I bet the same final outcome would have looked differently.

[IlliniKrush]

On top of taking over a program that was terrible the 4 years prior, winning 1 big ten conference game the 2 years prior to his first year. So he basically resurrected the program, made 3 bowl games in 5 years and won two of them, and that, for an awful football program, is not good enough.

 

Again, totally reasonable to let him go, and they should have earlier than they did, but people need some perspective on how good/bad he really was.

Now you're starting to contradict yourself and play both sides of this.

 

If it's good enough for that awful program, then you are in favor of keeping him and saying his firing was wrong.

 

Then you immediately say "totally reasonable to let him go."

[Harry Chappas]

And in that moment in time, which way was the arrow pointing?

 

Which way is it pointing now?

 

 

[bigruss]

Which way is it pointing now?

I would say slightly up, but that's not saying much because the program is/was in the s***ter.

[gatnom]

It was a back-loaded schedule vs 5 straight bowl-bound teams that included the rigged JoePa finale. Sure, they sucked against Minnesota at the end, but the rest of the schedule wasn't a cakewalk. Had the Indiana and Michigan games been reversed, I bet the same final outcome would have looked differently.

 

If you throw out all the losses, Zook was a great coach.

 

 

 

 

[IlliniKrush]

It was a back-loaded schedule vs 5 straight bowl-bound teams that included the rigged JoePa finale. Sure, they sucked against Minnesota at the end, but the rest of the schedule wasn't a cakewalk. Had the Indiana and Michigan games been reversed, I bet the same final outcome would have looked differently.

I think a lot of people thought that when they were 6-0 that is was a bit of smoke and mirrors, kind of like we are seeing now with 3-1. It took one bit of adversity and it was over. They lost to a bad Purdue team (after having OSU complete one pass the week before and win), and tumbled the rest of the way with that awful Minnesota loss as you mentioned, which sealed it.

 

2010 wasn't awful, but 2009 was brutal too.

[IlliniKrush]

Which way is it pointing now?

Irrelevant to the conversation re: Zook, but slightly up, if not just straight across, but I will wait 8 more games (or perhaps less) to give you a definitive answer.

 

This isn't a Zook vs Beckman comparison. You don't make a judgment on whether or not Zook should have been fired 3 years after the new guy takes over.

[Jenksismyhero]

Now you're starting to contradict yourself and play both sides of this.

 

If it's good enough for that awful program, then you are in favor of keeping him and saying his firing was wrong.

 

Then you immediately say "totally reasonable to let him go."

 

My argument is - people need to evaluate his tenure a little more reasonably. All I hear is how terrible he was, but he was actually not bad in comparison to other Illinois coaches. IMO as a fan, he had to go because he would never get the program where I want the program (the next Wisconsin). But that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that for the program as it exists, he was "good."

 

It surprises me that with Beckman and how the last 2+ seasons have gone people can't acknowledge that maybe Zook wasn't as bad as people thought.

[LittleHurt05]

Zook was the best of our last 4 coaches which speaks more to how bad the other 3 are then how good Zook is. It is telling that none of these guys have had any success anywhere else.

 

That's kind of my whole point. Of course Zook is no Nick Saban, and he was lacking in gameday intelligence, but it's Illinois football we are talking about. He recruited lots of exciting NFL talent to the program that at least made games worth watching, and made 3 bowl games in 5 years, which hadn't been done since the late 1980s.

 

I guess everyone is happy now though with the worst head coach in all the Power 5 conferences, but at least the program isn't "ruined" anymore.

[gatnom]

My argument is - people need to evaluate his tenure a little more reasonably. All I hear is how terrible he was, but he was actually not bad in comparison to other Illinois coaches. IMO as a fan, he had to go because he would never get the program where I want the program (the next Wisconsin). But that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that for the program as it exists, he was "good."

 

It surprises me that with Beckman and how the last 2+ seasons have gone people can't acknowledge that maybe Zook wasn't as bad as people thought.

 

The problems with keeping kids in school and with being able to have both good recruiters and good coaches at the same time are pretty awful. And, that doesn't even account for his in game decision making or the way his teams just folded at the first sign of adversity.

 

Beckman is not looking like a good hire right now, but that has nothing to do with evaluating Zook.

 

 

[IlliniKrush]

My argument is - people need to evaluate his tenure a little more reasonably. All I hear is how terrible he was, but he was actually not bad in comparison to other Illinois coaches. IMO as a fan, he had to go because he would never get the program where I want the program (the next Wisconsin). But that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that for the program as it exists, he was "good."

 

It surprises me that with Beckman and how the last 2+ seasons have gone people can't acknowledge that maybe Zook wasn't as bad as people thought.

Again, a bad Beckman hire doesn't make Zook any better.

 

Why he had to go is a good way to put it (Wisconsin), and I also think had the program pointing straight down and he wasn't going to recover from it with what was there. I think we're arguing over a tallest midget contest. So Zook may be the tallest.

 

My main argument is that he needed to be fired, and there seems to be a few people saying no, he shouldn't have. It's kind of went in different directions from there.

 

It was put best by whitesoxfan:

 

"Zook was the best of our last 4 coaches which speaks more to how bad the other 3 are then how good Zook is. It is telling that none of these guys have had any success anywhere else."

 

As far as general building goes, the WAY in which Beckman is trying to build is more sustainable than what Zook was doing. So, if he's not the guy here, hopefully the next guy can build in that regard, and I think he'll have an easier time building than what Beckman came in with.

[Jenksismyhero]

The problems with keeping kids in school and with being able to have both good recruiters and good coaches at the same time are pretty awful. And, that doesn't even account for his in game decision making or the way his teams just folded at the first sign of adversity.

 

Beckman is not looking like a good hire right now, but that has nothing to do with evaluating Zook.

 

They didn't fold at OSU, probably the greatest win in the last 50 years of Illinois football.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Again, a bad Beckman hire doesn't make Zook any better.

 

Why he had to go is a good way to put it (Wisconsin), and I also think had the program pointing straight down and he wasn't going to recover from it with what was there. I think we're arguing over a tallest midget contest. So Zook may be the tallest.

 

My main argument is that he needed to be fired, and there seems to be a few people saying no, he shouldn't have. It's kind of went in different directions from there.

 

It was put best by whitesoxfan:

 

"Zook was the best of our last 4 coaches which speaks more to how bad the other 3 are then how good Zook is. It is telling that none of these guys have had any success anywhere else."

 

As far as general building goes, the WAY in which Beckman is trying to build is more sustainable than what Zook was doing. So, if he's not the guy here, hopefully the next guy can build in that regard, and I think he'll have an easier time building than what Beckman came in with.

 

I don't really get the last point. I'll take exciting, high level, NFL caliber players with some bad losses over a bunch of MAC-level players who are model citizens.

[IlliniKrush]

That's kind of my whole point. Of course Zook is no Nick Saban, and he was lacking in gameday intelligence, but it's Illinois football we are talking about. He recruited lots of exciting NFL talent to the program that at least made games worth watching, and made 3 bowl games in 5 years, which hadn't been done since the late 1980s.

 

I guess everyone is happy now though with the worst head coach in all the Power 5 conferences, but at least the program isn't "ruined" anymore.

How far into the ground did you have to dig to place your bar?

 

I'm not sure how many times we have to say it, but Beckman's results have nothing to do with evaluating Zook. If we had hired a home run, would you be saying the same things about Zook? I highly doubt it.

 

What if we fire Beckman, and the program somehow gets worse? Should we be calling for Beckman to still be coach? No. If he's not the answer, move on and try again. That book is closed before the new one starts.

 

And Zook wasn't recruiting at the end of the tenure, so the whole thing wasn't sustainable.