2014-2015 NCAA football thread

[illinilaw08]

My argument is - people need to evaluate his tenure a little more reasonably. All I hear is how terrible he was, but he was actually not bad in comparison to other Illinois coaches. IMO as a fan, he had to go because he would never get the program where I want the program (the next Wisconsin). But that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that for the program as it exists, he was "good."

 

It surprises me that with Beckman and how the last 2+ seasons have gone people can't acknowledge that maybe Zook wasn't as bad as people thought.

 

I can cherry pick an argument for Turner being a successful coach at Illinois, too. He inherited a program that was bottom of the barrel awful (0-11 his first year). Went to a decent bowl in '99 (MicronPc.com bowl), had two losses in '00 that involved official apologies from the B1G (Michigan and MSU), and then made the Sugar Bowl in '01.

 

Zook absolutely did some good stuff at Illinois, but he only had one season where he was better than 6-6 at the end of the regular season (the Rose Bowl year) in his 5 seasons here. Zook recruited, early in his tenure, better than anyone at Illinois has since Mike White. But the results ultimately caught up to him. Recruiting swung back down, and he left the cupboard pretty bare for Beckman.

 

On Beckman, the next 8 games determine his future. In year 1, Illinois wasn't competitive in any games. In year 2, they were competitive in most games with a bunch of losses. But I don't think last year was a disaster. They showed some improvement. This year, he needs to win games in the B1G. If he doesn't do that, you move on.

[Jenksismyhero]

I can cherry pick an argument for Turner being a successful coach at Illinois, too. He inherited a program that was bottom of the barrel awful (0-11 his first year). Went to a decent bowl in '99 (MicronPc.com bowl), had two losses in '00 that involved official apologies from the B1G (Michigan and MSU), and then made the Sugar Bowl in '01.

 

Zook absolutely did some good stuff at Illinois, but he only had one season where he was better than 6-6 at the end of the regular season (the Rose Bowl year) in his 5 seasons here. Zook recruited, early in his tenure, better than anyone at Illinois has since Mike White. But the results ultimately caught up to him. Recruiting swung back down, and he left the cupboard pretty bare for Beckman.

 

On Beckman, the next 8 games determine his future. In year 1, Illinois wasn't competitive in any games. In year 2, they were competitive in most games with a bunch of losses. But I don't think last year was a disaster. They showed some improvement. This year, he needs to win games in the B1G. If he doesn't do that, you move on.

 

Turner's last 2 years were terrible on top of getting no talent. He just stopped recruiting. In Zook's last two years he won two bowls, with or without credit for the last bowl win. Yeah, a s***ty bowl the last year, but a bowl none the less. And the talent wasn't TOTALLY empty. He still had a few good players. I mean if that's the argument, then Beckman should get more than just this year to prove himself. You can't hold 2 seasons against him when his roster supposedly had no talent.

 

Just so it's said - I do NOT want Zook back or think that Zook should have remained the coach. Ideally he would have been canned when the roster still had some of that NFL talent.

 

[IlliniKrush]

I don't really get the last point. I'll take exciting, high level, NFL caliber players with some bad losses over a bunch of MAC-level players who are model citizens.

We didn't have those coming into the program at the end (see: 2013 season), and furthermore, what good is it recruiting "talent" when it doesn't qualify, or drops out of the program? The model citizens at least play football on Saturdays. It's all about sustainability of the program and trying to build something besides a flash in the pan.

 

All this from Robert at Illiniboard:

 

Starting with the 2009 recruiting class until the day he was fired, Ron Zook added 78 recruits. Of those 78, 33 left the program. Since Tim Beckman took over, he has inked 54 recruits. Of those 54, only three will not be in uniform in a few weeks.

 

But it’s also sometimes not talent at all. Ron Zook, with more NFL players than all but Ohio State in 2009, finished 3-9 in the Big Ten. If you keep losing players and keep plugging in underclassmen (and then losing that underclassman and promoting an even younger underclassman), it’s really hard to build a program.

 

By my count, Ron Zook inked 174 players to Illinois. 81 did not graduate. In his first 30 months, Tim Beckman has inked 54 recruits. Three did not qualify, and as of this writing, not one player has left.

 

I'm not saying don't recruit talent, I'm saying recruit talent that will stay in the program and build with 4 and 5 year players. Hell, that's the exact Wisconsin model Alvarez used to build.

[Jenksismyhero]

We didn't have those coming into the program at the end (see: 2013 season), and furthermore, what good is it recruiting "talent" when it doesn't qualify, or drops out of the program? The model citizens at least play football on Saturdays. It's all about sustainability of the program and trying to build something besides a flash in the pan.

 

All this from Robert at Illiniboard:

 

 

 

I'm not saying don't recruit talent, I'm saying recruit talent that will stay in the program and build with 4 and 5 year players. Hell, that's the exact Wisconsin model Alvarez used to build.

 

Alvarez won conference games his first few seasons though (0, 2, 3, Rose Bowl). It was apparent they were getting better year over year.

[IlliniKrush]

Alvarez won conference games his first few seasons though (0, 2, 3, Rose Bowl). It was apparent they were getting better year over year.

My point still stands, he built Wisconsin into what it is today by recruiting into a system, having guys there 4 and 5 years, and playing mainly upperclassmen due to depth.

 

I'm not sure who has seen those numbers on Zook before, but they are crazy. Should change perspective.

 

In your numbers above, we're at 0, 1, ?, so we'll see how it plays out.

[LittleHurt05]

We didn't have those coming into the program at the end (see: 2013 season), and furthermore, what good is it recruiting "talent" when it doesn't qualify, or drops out of the program? The model citizens at least play football on Saturdays. It's all about sustainability of the program and trying to build something besides a flash in the pan.

 

All this from Robert at Illiniboard:

 

 

 

I'm not saying don't recruit talent, I'm saying recruit talent that will stay in the program and build with 4 and 5 year players. Hell, that's the exact Wisconsin model Alvarez used to build.

 

That's great in theory and all, but there aren't many Barry Alvarez-type coaches out there. Recruiting "talent" who may not qualify is still better than recruiting 4 & 5 year MAC-caliber players.

[IlliniKrush]

That's great in theory and all, but there aren't many Barry Alvarez-type coaches out there. Recruiting "talent" who may not qualify is still better than recruiting 4 & 5 year MAC-caliber players.

Again, one is sustainable and you can build a program on, the other isn't. Regardless of if they are 2 stars or 4 stars, you need them to play, you need to coach them up, and you need to have upperclassmen to win. The numbers from Zook say a lot.

 

Now, you want 3 and 4 star players instead of only 2 and 3, but the concept remains the same.

 

Ever looked up Kansas State's history? They win with JUCO's and walkons.

 

The goal is to find the next Barry Alvarez-type or close to it. Wisconsin was in as bad a shape when they started the whole thing. It can be done.

Edited September 22, 2014 by IlliniKrush

[RockRaines]

That's great in theory and all, but there aren't many Barry Alvarez-type coaches out there. Recruiting "talent" who may not qualify is still better than recruiting 4 & 5 year MAC-caliber players.

I dont fully agree with your statement because the Big Ten coaches are missing on players that play in the MAC and could make their programs incredibly more competitive. I could drop at least 20 names right now in Ohio that will end up in the MAC and are better than what Purdue, IL, IU etc are putting on the field. I think they need to put more time and effort into their recruiting program in general.

[bmags]

I dont fully agree with your statement because the Big Ten coaches are missing on players that play in the MAC and could make their programs incredibly more competitive. I could drop at least 20 names right now in Ohio that will end up in the MAC and are better than what Purdue, IL, IU etc are putting on the field. I think they need to put more time and effort into their recruiting program in general.

 

I think one thing MAC coaches do well is finding those tweener "Athletes" and finding a way to make them work. That's why you see a lot of awkward QBs come out of the MAC that would have been converted to tight end or safety elsewhere.

 

Even though Mizzou is a heartbreaking team not worthy of any praise right now, one way they outperform their star rankings is by finding the unheralded "Athlete", using their great weight training program and dline coach and turning them into star dlineman. Then they say "how was this 6'6 freak a two star athlete"...and it's because nobody knew they'd be dline.

[RockRaines]

http://www.michigandaily.com/sports/michig...chase-coca-cola

 

Oh no Michigan.

[farmteam]

As an outsider, I don't see Illinois winning more than one Big Ten game this year. They have just looked awful, and Beckman hasn't done anything to inspire confidence up to this point.

[cabiness42]

OK, so my contact at ND got what he considers to be some semi-reliable information.

 

All five players are having their university hearings this week. This will determine whether or not they receive any university discipline, which may or may not involve being dismissed from school for the current semester.

 

After those hearings are over, the athletic department needs to determine whether or not NCAA rules were violated that would cause ineligibility of the players beyond whatever university discipline is in place.

 

My contact has heard two different opinions on what the expected outcome of the case is:

 

1) Russell and Daniels will be cleared, the other three will be gone for at least the rest of the season, but there are no NCAA violations that would cause probation or vacating wins.

 

2) Only Russell will be cleared, the other four will be gone for at least the rest of the season, there are minor NCAA violations but no wins will need to be vacated.

 

He believes #2 is closer to being accurate.

Edited September 23, 2014 by HickoryHuskers

[Brian]

Rumors starting about Michigan going all in to get Harbaugh. It's do far down the line, I don't even want to start thinking about the process.

[southsider2k5]

Rumors starting about Michigan going all in to get Harbaugh. It's do far down the line, I don't even want to start thinking about the process.

 

Jim or John?

[Kyyle23]

Jim or John?

 

Jim for sure

[Brian]

Jim for sure

 

Yes. Sorry, didn't think it would need specifying.

[RockRaines]

Rumors starting about Michigan going all in to get Harbaugh. It's do far down the line, I don't even want to start thinking about the process.

Yeah, not many successful NFL coaches go back to college, well maybe zero have. I would say thats a wish, not realistic.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Yeah, not many successful NFL coaches go back to college, well maybe zero have. I would say thats a wish, not realistic.

He'll probably be on the outs in SF.

[RockRaines]

He'll probably be on the outs in SF.

Even if that were true he would command top dollar in the NFL. It's unprecedented

[Buehrle>Wood]

Even if that were true he would command top dollar in the NFL. It's unprecedented

Wouldn't say that. Petrino and Sabana were making bank in the nfl but quickly left when they realize they can have way more control and still make money in college. Michigan probably fires their AD and offers the farm to Harbaugh. This is a guy who is the ultimate control freak as evidenced by his in house fighting in SF. He'll have to think about it.

[RockRaines]

Neither one of those guys were as successful as Harbaugh.

[Boogua]

Clayton said on ESPN radio earlier that he wouldn't be surprised if Harbaugh ends up at Michigan because he might want a Carroll type deal (executive VP of football operations) to stay in the NFL. I think a team would give him that deal, though. I highly doubt he takes the Michigan job, but it is interesting to think about and would certainly help the B1G.

 

[RockRaines]

I expect the usual names like Miles and Gruden to come out as well. However I believe John Harbaugh is the most realistic and it's still slim. Like before I expect a name from a lower level program.

Edited September 24, 2014 by RockRaines

[IlliniKrush]

Neither one of those guys were as successful as Harbaugh.

I think you're overestimating how much success plays into it, I think the exact reasons he would leave would be the Saban train of thought. Have control over everything, and control your own players, not rely on GM/draft/etc. In the NFL you can't just go get better talent than everyone else.

[LittleHurt05]

Jameis Winston will no longer do midweek press conferences with the media so he can concentrate on academics. Right.