2014-2015 NFL Football thread

[Balta1701]

The Niners had put together an extremely talented roster and failed to get over the hump. They have lost some of that depth and are now 4-4. One game better than the Bears. They haven't played Seattle yet. Why are we pining for someone else's mediocrity over our own at this point?

 

I know we need to look deeper than just this year's team's current record. I realize a coach can have a bad year and still remain a good coach. Just look at what Andy Reid has done with KC after 2012 in Philadelphia. That being said, I don't view Harbaugh as any being an incredible organizational leader. As you admitted, he seems to have issues with his own front office. He has behaved questionably on the sidelines at times. He is allowing a player alleged to have beaten a female to continue to play. He made the decision to elevate Kaepernick over Alex Smith, despite the latter's success. The jury is still out on the results of that decision, but they certainly are in question at this point.

 

I confess I don't follow the Niners extremely closely, but I just don't see much there in terms of Harbaugh's leadership capabilities that would convince me to give up the necessary dollars and authority to bring him in right now.

I guess the simple question in reply is how much weight we put into "getting the super bowl but not winning it"?

[Chisoxfn]

Shack, in Re: to your point on McDonald. I have not followed the case exclusively but I believe Harbaugh has always been consistent that he won't penalize a player until charges actually are brought. He has been extremely consistent in this stance and that treatment is very consistent with what any of us would like and in theory would be entitled to. I also thought I saw a blurb (again, no idea what the detail of facts were) that chargers are not actually going to be made (not sure if it is due to lack of evidence or what).

 

If I was going to point to issues in this league, it wouldn't be with the Harbaugh stances, which are both very consistent and well grounded, but with the stance of some of these other teams (see Carolina and Minnesota).

[Chisoxfn]

Think about this again...

 

Harbaugh is 40-15 as a head coach in this league with a .727 winning percentage, having made the playoffs in each of his first 3 full season (including 1 superbowl appearance) and inherited a 6-10 team with a so-called bust in Alex Smith.

 

Trestman is 11-13 with no postseason appearances and inherited a 10 win team.

[Chisoxfn]

It's easy to criticize this move today. However, this move was not particularly questioned when it was made. The alternative was to franchise him and shift towards developing the next quarterback, but given our relative success with that over the years (as well as the general difficulty that is thought to entail throughout the League), I'm not sure that move wouldn't have been met with far worse backlash (at the time, as well as today).

Downside to franchising was you would have had a high cap hit this year which would have prevented us to make other roster moves. However, that difference ended up being pretty minimal given how Jay's current deal was structured. If Jay produces, he's probably still getting paid a similarly large number in future years and you extend him (no questions asked..maybe you end up paying a little more, but reality is no matter what you are talking expensive).

 

Upside was that if Jay couldn't succeed, you walk away after year 1 and can actually move towards finding a franchise QB (not saying you'd hit, but you could at least move in that direction). This would ensure you could spend minimal on QB during early years and try to upgrade the rest of the roster with the additional savings. Team has much more flexibility moving forward.

 

When you put that on paper, hard to see major negatives of the franchise in reality.

[iamshack]

I think a lot of the bigger media had questioned the move when it was made. The reality was an alternative option was there, which was to franchise the QB. In fact, a lot of people said why give Cutler that much money when you had McCown produce just as well and have you seen enough out of Jay to think that he is different than the pre-trestman Jay. I am not saying everyone thought that, but there were plenty that did. If I recall, the view of Cutler signing for so much money was not thought of as a good idea by all, not even a vast majority of national pundits.

 

In terms of Harbaugh, this Niners team has had injuries to a ton of stars and most everyone would have expected a slow start given. Harbaugh inherited an awful team and turned them almost immediately into a perennial super bowl contender. He has had success with two different QB's.

 

And when you refer to Reid, I believe I was adamant that he was option 1 through 10 for the Bears to hire. I wanted Reid more then anyone and was very clear about how great of a coach I thought he was. Was he ready to leave Philly, sure, but was he still elite, absolutely and while KC isn't great, he's done a heck of a lot for a team that isn't exactly loaded with talent and a lot of that has to do with strong coaching across the board.

 

I just have a very hard time defending what the Bears have done. I think a lot of the warnings signs were already there. Whether we chose to see them or not, it wasn't like warnings signs weren't there and stuff came totally unexpected. I am an optimist by nature and I have been more negative about certain instances of this football team in the last two years then in any year with Lovie Smith. And I'm not saying we would be better / worse with Lovie, etc. Not getting into that, just looking at the current facts and we went from a roster generally perceived as being one to contend (and viewed as the top destination) to potentially having a not so good roster, with a QB whose cap hit far exceeds his value.

I was one of those who asked "What is the difference between what Cutler would produce and what McCown would produce in this system, and is that really greater than what that difference will cost in terms of signing Cutler long term?" I honestly was willing to look at other alternatives, but given the situation we were in, and the way Cutler had been playing when healthy, I wasn't particularly upset when they gave him the extension. I agree there was a minority of others who held this view, however, it was just that - a minority. Had we let Cutler walk and resigned McCown, all hell would have broken loose. It's easy to imagine it not, given the 8 games we have played thus far this year, but the fact is it would have. Despite his flaws, Cutler is still EASILY the best quarterback we have ever had long-term. Is that a high threshold? Not particularly, but that history is exactly what made extending Cutler more of a necessity in most peoples' minds.

 

As to Harbaugh, let's be realistic here...he didn't turn water into wine, did he? The Niners were coming off a decade of absolutely sucking, which resulted in some opportunities to reshape their roster through free agency and the draft. Not taking away from the roster Harbaugh helped build, but perennial Super Bowl contender? Well, I'm not quite ready to concede that.

[iamshack]

I guess the simple question in reply is how much weight we put into "getting the super bowl but not winning it"?

The simple answer is ask Lovie Smith.

[Balta1701]

The simple answer is ask Lovie Smith.

It got him a whole lot of money and probably his 2nd job, so it seems like a good amount of weight.

[iamshack]

Think about this again...

 

Harbaugh is 40-15 as a head coach in this league with a .727 winning percentage, having made the playoffs in each of his first 3 full season (including 1 superbowl appearance) and inherited a 6-10 team with a so-called bust in Alex Smith.

 

Trestman is 11-13 with no postseason appearances and inherited a 10 win team.

I don't think this is particularly fair. Yes, they had been 10-6 the previous year, but the offense was a disaster, and the defense was starting a steep decline due to age. 10-6 is not really an accurate indicator of what the Bears were at the outset of 2013.

[Kyyle23]

Think about this again...

 

Harbaugh is 40-15 as a head coach in this league with a .727 winning percentage, having made the playoffs in each of his first 3 full season (including 1 superbowl appearance) and inherited a 6-10 team with a so-called bust in Alex Smith.

 

Trestman is 11-13 with no postseason appearances and inherited a 10 win team.

 

This is a really empty statement. That team did not go to the playoffs, and that team lost a lot of the defense leading into the next season.

 

Trestman should be judged on his own record, which is mediocre to poor, not judged against Lovies final record. Lets not forget how Lovie went to the playoffs only once after he went to the Superbowl.

 

 

[iamshack]

It got him a whole lot of money and probably his 2nd job, so it seems like a good amount of weight.

I don't think it gets you much from the fanbase, other than a few more years of patience?

 

Just look at the difference between how the 1985 team and the 2006 team is thought of.

[Chisoxfn]

I was one of those who asked "What is the difference between what Cutler would produce and what McCown would produce in this system, and is that really greater than what that difference will cost in terms of signing Cutler long term?" I honestly was willing to look at other alternatives, but given the situation we were in, and the way Cutler had been playing when healthy, I wasn't particularly upset when they gave him the extension. I agree there was a minority of others who held this view, however, it was just that - a minority. Had we let Cutler walk and resigned McCown, all hell would have broken loose. It's easy to imagine it not, given the 8 games we have played thus far this year, but the fact is it would have. Despite his flaws, Cutler is still EASILY the best quarterback we have ever had long-term. Is that a high threshold? Not particularly, but that history is exactly what made extending Cutler more of a necessity in most peoples' minds.

 

As to Harbaugh, let's be realistic here...he didn't turn water into wine, did he? The Niners were coming off a decade of absolutely sucking, which resulted in some opportunities to reshape their roster through free agency and the draft. Not taking away from the roster Harbaugh helped build, but perennial Super Bowl contender? Well, I'm not quite ready to concede that.

I don't disagree with many of those points, however, we are paying a QB the type of money that they need to be difference makers and Cutler now has a long enough track record that it would appear statistically he has proven that he is not a difference maker. I think Harbaugh deserves a lot of the credit. Bad teams have stayed bad, what changes is good execution. Is it all Harbaugh, no, front office deserves credit but Harbaugh was a large part of completing shifting the culture. He also probably made a mistake in picking Smith over Kap.

 

PS: I don't think Bears would be better with McCown but if we franchised, we would at least be able to look at this year and say, okay, lets shift our focus, find a young QB or go after a game manager who can be above average (but cost effectively) and get the most talent out of our skill positions and work on having a strong defense, etc. As we currently stand, we are going to have a hard time having sustained success with Cutler and his cap hit (unless he starts to play at an elite level and make players better cause we are going to be unable to really do a lot more to upgrade the defense).

 

Bottom line, I'd rather be in this position knowing we could choose to move on from Jay and not have extra expensive vs. the current scenario. Again, I'm not denying statistically he has been our best QB and most talented QB in my lifetime, however, we are paying him to be better then that and he hasn't. I am not saying this season is all his fault, far from it. I think our coaches, front office and players deserve plenty of the blame. We have played poorly in all three phases and that has been both due to poor play and poor coaching / fundamentals to bad personell decisions. Blame is all across the board.

[iamshack]

Think about this again...

 

Harbaugh is 40-15 as a head coach in this league with a .727 winning percentage, having made the playoffs in each of his first 3 full season (including 1 superbowl appearance) and inherited a 6-10 team with a so-called bust in Alex Smith.

 

Trestman is 11-13 with no postseason appearances and inherited a 10 win team.

Well, Andy Reid is doing the same thing with KC as Harbaugh did with SF (in regards to Smith).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say Harbaugh isn't a good football coach.

 

But those signs you wrote of a few posts ago...I just think I am seeing them with Harbaugh too.

Edited November 3, 2014 by iamshack

[Chisoxfn]

This is a really empty statement. That team did not go to the playoffs, and that team lost a lot of the defense leading into the next season.

 

Trestman should be judged on his own record, which is mediocre to poor, not judged against Lovies final record. Lets not forget how Lovie went to the playoffs only once after he went to the Superbowl.

I understand but Trestman inherited what was viewed by most pundits as a potential playoff team. That Bears team was 10-6 and didn't make the playoffs due to Cutlers injury (largely). I think that context is important because we reportedly (and I still have never heard anything that has stated otherwise) had our pick of any of the coaches from that class. I agree defense struggled more and while I'll blame injuries and personell for some of it, I also have heard too many people say our schemes are weak under Tucker. In football, more than any other sport, coaching matters.

 

Funny thing is I like the coaches Trestman brought in this year and the coaches that stink were the ones that Emery brought in (Tucker & DeCamillis).

[iamshack]

I understand but Trestman inherited what was viewed by most pundits as a potential playoff team. That Bears team was 10-6 and didn't make the playoffs due to Cutlers injury (largely). I think that context is important because we reportedly (and I still have never heard anything that has stated otherwise) had our pick of any of the coaches from that class. I agree defense struggled more and while I'll blame injuries and personell for some of it, I also have heard too many people say our schemes are weak under Tucker. In football, more than any other sport, coaching matters.

 

Funny thing is I like the coaches Trestman brought in this year and the coaches that stink were the ones that Emery brought in (Tucker & DeCamillis).

Well, for what it's worth, I was on the Chip Kelly and then the Bruce Arians train.

 

[Kyyle23]

I understand but Trestman inherited what was viewed by most pundits as a potential playoff team. That Bears team was 10-6 and didn't make the playoffs due to Cutlers injury (largely). I think that context is important because we reportedly (and I still have never heard anything that has stated otherwise) had our pick of any of the coaches from that class. I agree defense struggled more and while I'll blame injuries and personell for some of it, I also have heard too many people say our schemes are weak under Tucker. In football, more than any other sport, coaching matters.

 

Funny thing is I like the coaches Trestman brought in this year and the coaches that stink were the ones that Emery brought in (Tucker & DeCamillis).

 

i dont disagree with this, and I think this year the expectations were much higher and things have really spiralled.

 

If this season goes full death spiral, i have no doubt that heads will roll after this season. I just wonder whose, the coaching staff or the coaching staff and Emery.

[Chisoxfn]

Well, Andy Reid is doing the same thing with KC as Harbaugh did with SF (in regards to Smith).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say Harbaugh isn't a good football coach.

 

But those signs you wrote of a few posts ago...I just think I am seeing them with Harbaugh too.

I could also argue the situation in SF is more that the coach wants more control, more power, and more credit and the front office instead wants the credit too (or more of it). I think a lot of what is going on in SF has been intentional leaks by their front office and ownership to stir the pot and make it easier for them to get rid of Harbaugh. The players, while I guarantee a few are upset (that will be the case in many locker rooms), have also been out there in their support of Harbaugh.

 

Also, Reid is an excellent coach. I'd rather have him then Harbaugh (I was so pissed we didn't hire him in the first place). He is an elite QB coach and mind and also knows how to run a team and adjust his play calling to his personell (offensively).

[Chisoxfn]

Well, for what it's worth, I was on the Chip Kelly and then the Bruce Arians train.

 

And I also remember your posts about McCown and franchising Jay. I think the reality is, Trestman was none of our first choices and we all thought the other candidates were smarter hires. Not saying we all poo pooed the Trestman hire. We hoped, like fans did, that his offensive mind would work here. I'm not questioning Trestman's smarts or anything, I just think as a HC he is in way over his head.

 

I also could say some nice things about Emery, most notably that by and large he has done a good job targeting areas of need and being aggressive when need be. In fact, depending on what his young DT's do, I might keep him based purely on this last years draft class (which was huge because he tanked outside of Alshon in his first draft). However, he has also really had a hard time evaluating our existing personell and has had some free agent misses, which would lead me to believe he's best suited at what he's done best a long time (college scouting).

[Jake]

It would be way too soon to can Emery, IMO. You can't evaluate GMs this quickly. I'd also say this is rather quick to pull the plug on a head coach, too. You put yourself in a position where suddenly you have to fire another coach immediately if he goes sub-.500 . . . shortly thereafter, you're the Raiders. Or something.

[Jenksismyhero]

Think about this again...

 

Harbaugh is 40-15 as a head coach in this league with a .727 winning percentage, having made the playoffs in each of his first 3 full season (including 1 superbowl appearance) and inherited a 6-10 team with a so-called bust in Alex Smith.

 

Trestman is 11-13 with no postseason appearances and inherited a 10 win team.

 

What's the injury comparison though? I feel like the Bears have had some pretty terrible injury luck the last 1.5 seasons.

 

And that 10 win team stuff is nonsense. He missed the playoffs 5 out of 6 years. Not acceptable.

[Jenksismyhero]

It would be way too soon to can Emery, IMO. You can't evaluate GMs this quickly. I'd also say this is rather quick to pull the plug on a head coach, too. You put yourself in a position where suddenly you have to fire another coach immediately if he goes sub-.500 . . . shortly thereafter, you're the Raiders. Or something.

 

Agree with this. Trestman and Emery are going to get at least next season before the hot seat starts to get warm. Last year they were a busted coverage play away from the playoffs after starting 3rd string players on their defense and losing their franchise QB for half the year. This year he dealt with unhealthy WR's for a couple of weeks and a defense that again is pretty decimated. They should be better, but given what's happened I'm not sure what the expectation can be, realistically.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Chisoxfn]

It would be way too soon to can Emery, IMO. You can't evaluate GMs this quickly. I'd also say this is rather quick to pull the plug on a head coach, too. You put yourself in a position where suddenly you have to fire another coach immediately if he goes sub-.500 . . . shortly thereafter, you're the Raiders. Or something.

If you make the move to hire some unproven guy, sure, but if you are going for an organizational change and your current coach has completely lost the lockeroom, then you do it. This is not the Raiders, unless you have a history of doing this. This is full fledge, being outcoached, losing the lockeroom, etc. Sometimes you are best served by cutting the cord sooner.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Also, Reid is an excellent coach. I'd rather have him then Harbaugh (I was so pissed we didn't hire him in the first place). He is an elite QB coach and mind and also knows how to run a team and adjust his play calling to his personell (offensively).

 

No he doesn't. He's an upgrade to what KC has had in recent years but he's just brutal in his game management, play calling and decision making. He has misused KC's strength (their running game) that has cost them at least 3 wins over the past two seasons. It's so frustrating to watch sometimes.

[Jenksismyhero]

Am I the only one that doesn't care that the players on this roster have tuned Trestman out (assuming that's true)? Half of them won't be on the team next year. So long as it isn't guys like Cutler, Forte, Marshall and Jeffrey, who gives a s*** what they think?

[iamshack]

No he doesn't. He's an upgrade to what KC has had in recent years but he's just brutal in his game management, play calling and decision making. He has misused KC's strength (their running game) that has cost them at least 3 wins over the past two seasons. It's so frustrating to watch sometimes.

Hah, the grass is not always greener.

 

The old adage is true...no matter how hot the chick is, there is a guy somewhere that is sick of smelling her s***.

[southsider2k5]

dan durkin ‏@djdurkin 44m44 minutes ago

 

#Bears first team offensive line today from left to right: Bushrod - Mills - Garza - Long - Ola.