Asking Prices Beginning to Fall

[The Ultimate Champion]

Actually by balancing the middle of the lineup with a lefty bat, which De Aza won't do because he's not a middle of the order bat, Dunns presence should be quite valuable for Garcia and Abreu. The team absolutely needs to break those righties up and De Aza will not be hitting 5th any time soon.

We already covered this in our good old friend, the Sox break out player thread.

 

Remember?

 

Let's go back and revisit, shall we?

 

I posted:

 

"Adam Dunn with the White Sox: .197/.317/.405/.722

Alejandro DeAza with the White Sox: .279/.343/.420/.763"

 

You made this brilliant comment:

 

"To be equally fair to what they're likely to produce next year we should count a full season against De Aza for the year he destroyed his leg. It's just about as relevant as what you just posted to what they'll do next year."

 

To which I again responded with facts:

 

"Yeah let's just go ahead and pretend 2011 never happened & also pretend that DeAza has been anywhere near as bad as Dunn has been.

 

BTW you factor out Dunn's 2011 completely and guess what?

Dunn 2012-13: .211/.326/.455/.781 as a DH

DeAza with the Sox: .279/.343/.420/.763 as an OF with 60 SB in that span

 

DeAza's far superior even if you hack off what was at the time the single worst season in MLB history, which is completely unfair to discount especially with an all-or-nothing power hitter going into his age 34 season with a slow enough bat already. Dunn could very easily have a similar season next year. If he declines any more than he already has he won't take the field for anyone in 2015. "

 

Which prompted you, continuing in troll mode, to post:

 

"Alejandro De Aza could just as easily seirously injure a leg again next year, he has a history of doing so. Why are you discounting that?!"

 

See?

 

The problem isn't Matry and I who are making sense, it is you guys just trolling.

[BlackSox13]

Actually by balancing the middle of the lineup with a lefty bat, which De Aza won't do because he's not a middle of the order bat, Dunns presence should be quite valuable for Garcia and Abreu. The team absolutely needs to break those righties up and De Aza will not be hitting 5th any time soon.

Absolutely. Dunn is still a legit HR threat and our best threat from the left side. I still believe Dunn can be more productive if the Sox can get better production from the top of the order.

 

I see it the way, we've put up with Dunn for three years now, there's no harm in one more season or possibly less.

Edited February 15, 2014 by StRoostifer

[Balta1701]

Why do they need to break the right-handed hitters up and why couldn't De Aza bat in the middle of the order if need be?

This one is as basic as you can possibly get. The sequence of Garcia, Abreu, Viciedo, Ramirez, Beckham in the middle of the order would be incredibly vulnerable to right handed pitching, to the point where having to constantly deal with tough right handed pitching could easily start screwing with them. The White Sox wouldn't see a lefty reliever all year.

 

And De Aza simply is not an impact middle of the order bat. He won't play there even if he's the only option. Feel free to count that as an insult to the coaching staff if you'd like.

 

The reality is that this team is incredibly right-hand heavy and that will be a weakness if there's no balance in that part of the lineup. It will hurt both performance and development if there is no balance. Right now, that's Dunns job, to break up the righties, get the pitcher out of his groove and at least make him look at the other side of the plate, and occasionally to force the opposing manager to consider pitching changes.

[The Ultimate Champion]

So yes, to suggest Dunn is a #5 hitter is a farce, to suggest Dunn is a better hitter than DeAza is a farce, to suggest that Dunn is a better bet to perform than DeAza is a farce, to suggest Dunn has equal or greater trade value is a farce, and if you suggest that DeAza isn't good enough to fifth in this abortion of a lineup then certainly Dunn is capable of hitting no higher than 7th.

[The Ultimate Champion]

This one is as basic as you can possibly get. The sequence of Garcia, Abreu, Viciedo, Ramirez, Beckham in the middle of the order would be incredibly vulnerable to right handed pitching, to the point where having to constantly deal with tough right handed pitching could easily start screwing with them. The White Sox wouldn't see a lefty reliever all year.

 

And De Aza simply is not an impact middle of the order bat. He won't play there even if he's the only option. Feel free to count that as an insult to the coaching staff if you'd like.

 

The reality is that this team is incredibly right-hand heavy and that will be a weakness if there's no balance in that part of the lineup. It will hurt both performance and development if there is no balance. Right now, that's Dunns job, to break up the righties, get the pitcher out of his groove and at least make him look at the other side of the plate, and occasionally to force the opposing manager to consider pitching changes.

Holy dogs*** THIS TEAM IS GOING TO LOSE 80+ f***IN BALLGAMES!

 

LOL

 

We've got the makings of a potential quality starting staff AND a deep bullpen AND potentially a halfway decent defense AND STILL we suck SOOOO bad because of what our offense is.

 

And you're worried about the lack of a DFA candidate in the middle of this abortion. Wow.

[Balta1701]

We already covered this in our good old friend, the Sox break out player thread.

 

Remember?

 

Let's go back and revisit, shall we?

 

I posted:

 

"Adam Dunn with the White Sox: .197/.317/.405/.722

Alejandro DeAza with the White Sox: .279/.343/.420/.763"

 

You made this brilliant comment:

 

"To be equally fair to what they're likely to produce next year we should count a full season against De Aza for the year he destroyed his leg. It's just about as relevant as what you just posted to what they'll do next year."

 

To which I again responded with facts:

 

"Yeah let's just go ahead and pretend 2011 never happened & also pretend that DeAza has been anywhere near as bad as Dunn has been.

 

BTW you factor out Dunn's 2011 completely and guess what?

Dunn 2012-13: .211/.326/.455/.781 as a DH

DeAza with the Sox: .279/.343/.420/.763 as an OF with 60 SB in that span

 

DeAza's far superior even if you hack off what was at the time the single worst season in MLB history, which is completely unfair to discount especially with an all-or-nothing power hitter going into his age 34 season with a slow enough bat already. Dunn could very easily have a similar season next year. If he declines any more than he already has he won't take the field for anyone in 2015. "

 

Which prompted you, continuing in troll mode, to post:

 

"Alejandro De Aza could just as easily seirously injure a leg again next year, he has a history of doing so. Why are you discounting that?!"

 

See?

 

The problem isn't Matry and I who are making sense, it is you guys just trolling.

Of course you're trolling. You continue to add in De Azas outlier 2011 stint to make his numbers look better. Without that he drops down into the .740s for his OPS te last 2 seasons, and last year it was only .728.

 

That guy can still be a solid contributor but he makes no sense as a guy hitting 4th or 5th an of course you didn't respond when people called you out for ignoring how much of an outlier his short 2011 stint was.

[Balta1701]

Holy dogs*** THIS TEAM IS GOING TO LOSE 80+ f***IN BALLGAMES!

 

LOL

 

We've got the makings of a potential quality starting staff AND a deep bullpen AND potentially a halfway decent defense AND STILL we suck SOOOO bad because of what our offense is.

 

And you're worried about the lack of a DFA candidate in the middle of this abortion. Wow.

I have absolutely no idea how you'd come to the conclusion that this team has a potentially solid defense since the same guys were one of the worst defenses I've ever seen last year.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Of course you're trolling. You continue to add in De Azas outlier 2011 stint to make his numbers look better. Without that he drops down into the .740s for his OPS te last 2 seasons, and last year it was only .728.

 

That guy can still be a solid contributor but he makes no sense as a guy hitting 4th or 5th an of course you didn't respond when people called you out for ignoring how much of an outlier his short 2011 stint was.

LOL

 

So you want me to

1) Take out Dunn's worst year EVER and worst MLB season EVER

2) Take out a quality partial season of DeAza's

3) Factor in the possibility of a freak injury that occurred years ago in Florida as something reasonably realistic

 

AND I AM THE f***ING TROLL??

 

Cereal you guys super cereal OMG its Manbearpig!!!!! Manbearpig!!!

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[The Ultimate Champion]

I have absolutely no idea how you'd come to the conclusion that this team has a potentially solid defense since the same guys were one of the worst defenses I've ever seen last year.

Alexei at SS, Beckham/Semien 2B, Leury as a backup, Eaton in CF DeAza in LF and full season of Avisail at RF plus improvements from Connor should mean a much better defense than last year.

[Jose Abreu]

Our defense can only get better but it will still be below average.

[Balta1701]

LOL

 

So you want me to

1) Take out Dunn's worst year EVER and worst MLB season EVER

2) Take out a quality partial season of DeAza's

3) Factor in the possibility of a freak injury that occurred years ago in Florida as something reasonably realistic

 

AND I AM THE f***ING TROLL??

 

Cereal you guys super cereal OMG its Manbearpig!!!!! Manbearpig!!!

Of course you are trolling. All 3 of those things have just about as much relevance to the 2014 white sox and yet you think one of them is super important.

[Marty34]

Of course you're trolling. You continue to add in De Azas outlier 2011 stint to make his numbers look better. Without that he drops down into the .740s for his OPS te last 2 seasons, and last year it was only .728.

 

That guy can still be a solid contributor but he makes no sense as a guy hitting 4th or 5th an of course you didn't respond when people called you out for ignoring how much of an outlier his short 2011 stint was.

 

Why did they choose to sign De Aza for $4M?

[Balta1701]

Alexei at SS, Beckham/Semien 2B, Leury as a backup, Eaton in CF DeAza in LF and full season of Avisail at RF plus improvements from Connor should mean a much better defense than last year.

Eaton wasn't a very solid Cf in his short time last year, that position has a strong chance to be just as bad or worse. Was Garcia any good with the glove last year because I'm expecting a defensive downgrade from Rios. Davidson is supposedly a poor defender. De Aza is not going to get regular one in LF with this roster unless there is an injury. And te same coaches who presided over the defensive debacle last year are sill there. They could well be just about as bad.

[Balta1701]

Why did they choose to sign De Aza for $4M?

Because he'd get more than that as a free agent and they're not in a position to give people away for no return.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Of course you are trolling. All 3 of those things have just about as much relevance to the 2014 white sox and yet you think one of them is super important.

What you are doing is ignoring large sample sizes of real on-field events just to fit an absolutely terrible argument which you refuse to drop or cede points on. You're being obtuse.

 

Dunn's numbers are what they are. BTW DeAza missed time because of his injury and spent all that time recovering in Triple A. Meaning he was healthy when he put up those numbers and the only asterisk you would be put next to DeAza's 2011 numbers would say "fully healthy and motivated." But I guess that shouldn't be counted whereas Dunn's 2011 shouldn't count because his appendix had to be taken out in Spring & he wasn't happy about some stuff. WTF. It's pointless arguing with you. I used to think you were a quality poster, now I just think you're a troll. That's sad, Mr. Balta. Very very sad.

[Balta1701]

What you are doing is ignoring large sample sizes of real on-field events just to fit an absolutely terrible argument which you refuse to drop or cede points on. You're being obtuse.

 

Dunn's numbers are what they are. BTW DeAza missed time because of his injury and spent all that time recovering in Triple A. Meaning he was healthy when he put up those numbers and the only asterisk you would be put next to DeAza's 2011 numbers would say "fully healthy and motivated." But I guess that shouldn't be counted whereas Dunn's 2011 shouldn't count because his appendix had to be taken out in Spring & he wasn't happy about some stuff. WTF. It's pointless arguing with you. I used to think you were a quality poster, now I just think you're a troll. That's sad, Mr. Balta. Very very sad.

And De Azas numbers are what they are, he's a .725 to .750 ops outfielder, but you can't accept that because it would be clear that Dunn has outhit him consistently the last 2 years.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Eaton wasn't a very solid Cf in his short time last year, that position has a strong chance to be just as bad or worse. Was Garcia any good with the glove last year because I'm expecting a defensive downgrade from Rios. Davidson is supposedly a poor defender. De Aza is not going to get regular one in LF with this roster unless there is an injury. And te same coaches who presided over the defensive debacle last year are sill there. They could well be just about as bad.

Ok so great. The defense being worse tha "potentially halfway decent" which I said - which wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement anyway - just means we lose more games than the 80+ we're already looking at. So given that it makes your previous argument (the need for Dunn's s***ty LH bat to balance the lineup), to which my statement was in response, hold even less water.

[The Ultimate Champion]

And De Azas numbers are what they are, he's a .725 to .750 ops outfielder, but you can't accept that because it would be clear that Dunn has outhit him consistently the last 2 years.

Look at the f***ing numbers I just posted for you, twice now. Dunn hasn't "outhit" the guy, he's hit some more HRs and taken some more walks while otherwise being a completely useless player.

 

What do you want, offensive WAR?

 

2012:

DeAza: 2.9

Dunn: 1.8

 

2013:

DeAza: 1.7

Dunn: 1.0

 

Combined over that span:

DeAza: 4.6

Dunn: 2.8

 

What's your next point?

 

DeAza would make a better #5, a better DH, a better hitter, a better player than Dunn any way you want to slice it. Yall are thinking I am a troll here but I will cede a point when someone hits me with stats that makes me look wrong. Yall aren't doing that cuz yall are HATIN

 

HATIN!

 

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[ScottyDo]

What you are doing is ignoring large sample sizes of real on-field events just to fit an absolutely terrible argument which you refuse to drop or cede points on. You're being obtuse.

 

Dunn's numbers are what they are. BTW DeAza missed time because of his injury and spent all that time recovering in Triple A. Meaning he was healthy when he put up those numbers and the only asterisk you would be put next to DeAza's 2011 numbers would say "fully healthy and motivated." But I guess that shouldn't be counted whereas Dunn's 2011 shouldn't count because his appendix had to be taken out in Spring & he wasn't happy about some stuff. WTF. It's pointless arguing with you. I used to think you were a quality poster, now I just think you're a troll. That's sad, Mr. Balta. Very very sad.

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

Actually maybe we should take out all of DeAza's stats and just focus on last year, and really just focus on his defensive issues and baserunning mistakes, and play Dunn instead, because we're also going to be ignoring everything this guy has done since Washington.

[BlackSox13]

Yall aren't doing that cuz yall are HATIN

 

HATIN!

 

You call everyone out for " hatin" but what would you call b****ing relentlessly over and over again about Dunn through how many different threads now? Hello pot, meet kettle.

Edited February 15, 2014 by StRoostifer

[southsider2k5]

There is not a team in baseball that would want Dunn for anything more than a $1-2M tops, and that's probably overestimating things.

 

That means you've already eaten at least $13-14M of that deal.

 

Is it worth it to f*** the rest of the roster over in hopes of some s***ty middling f***ing prospect at the deadline?

 

No it's not.

 

You release him if you can't get anything out of it.

 

SoxTalk: DERPA DERPA DERPA HE's MAKING TOO MUCH DERPA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

YOU

ARE

MISSING

THE

ENTIRE

f***ING

POINT

 

 

SoxTalk: BUT WE'RE GONNA TRADE EM AND GIT SOME OF OUR DERPA BACK DERPA DERPA

 

 

NO

 

NO

 

NO

 

NO YOU WONT

 

BECAUSE YOU f***ING CANT

 

ITS f***ING GONE, THE MONEY IS GONE

 

 

 

 

 

 

Release the motherf***er.

 

But we can't! Too much money!

 

NOOOOOO

 

Still not getting it.

 

RELEASE THE MOTHER f***ER

 

Thank you.

 

Now please tip your pinkies up while you drink your overrated $6 a bottle beer.

 

It is ironic to advocate for the release of Dunn while giving out another terrible contract.

[Eminor3rd]

Why did they choose to sign De Aza for $4M?

 

Because he's worth more than that, is the simple answer. It's likely they thought they could trade him or someone else, but haven't been able to pull it off for some reason. They didn't sign him last week.

[Eminor3rd]

The most overlooked component of this discussion is that if the Sox were going to DFA Dunn, it would make absolutely NO sense not to wait and see how spring training shakes out. It's very possible that injuries either to the Sox roster or to other teams will change the situation dramatically, either opening things up for a trade or eliminating our excess depth.

 

I think it's very possible, for example, that Hahn is already ready to cut Keppinger and eat his money if nothing changes during ST. But why do it now?No reason not to keep your options open until the 25-man roster goes into effect.

[Marty34]

Because he's worth more than that, is the simple answer. It's likely they thought they could trade him or someone else, but haven't been able to pull it off for some reason. They didn't sign him last week.

 

So to lessen his value by playing Dunn at his expense would be harmful to the rebuild.