Asking Prices Beginning to Fall

[The Ultimate Champion]

The idea behind hanging on to Dunn and trading him is this,

 

If there was a suitor for Dunn he would most likely be gone already.

 

This is absolutely true.

 

Paying Dunn to stay off the team or to play for another is just dumb.

 

Why is it dumb? "Dumb" isn't a reason in itself.

 

The point behind playing Dunn is that you hope he plays well enough for a team to be interested in trading for him while taking on his salary.

 

How good does he have to be to even get someone to pick up $4-5M of that deal? Probably the best he's been since his Cincy days. And the likelihood of that is.....?

 

Its not about the potential return because we can all agree Dunn won't bring anything back worth hollering about.

 

Right. We can probably all agree that at best we're looking at some middling prospect which we can probably easily acquire as it is by dealing minor league fringe players.

 

Its the best way to get rid of Dunn's contract but he has to play in order to make himself intriguing enough for a team to be willing to trade for him.

 

Back to reality again. How great does this guy have to be for a team to eat anything on this? Unrealistically good.

 

Besides all that, its just bad business to flat out dump a high salary player if you ever want to sign a FA again in the future.

 

Take note Yankees! (just DFA'd Wells)

 

Take note Dodgers (who we should really copy if we can when it comes to the way they handled Andruw Jones, much to the delight of the player's association)

 

As bad as Dunn has been he's not nearly the bust that Vernon Wells has been ( just showing it could be worse).

 

None of this matters. A bad deal is a bad deal. Just as the Angels moved forward from their mistake, just like the Yankees moved forward from theirs. Both viewed Wells as the sunk cost he is and then teams chose to make, collectively, one poor decision and one wise decision instead of two stupid decisions out of stubbornness.

 

If we have to sit through one more season of Dunn then so be it, but at least he will be playing which opens the door of potentially trading him.

 

FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

 

Again, I must say the idea of holding onto and trading Dunn is NOT about trying maximize the return. Its about finding a suitor.

Finding a suitor to do WHAT?

 

We should play Dunn so maybe he becomes a fierce middle-of-the-order bat like the old days because then maybe we'll save some cash but probably still not even get anything or consequence? You know what most teams do on 4th down in the first quarter of the game when they're 15 yards back and a field goal is nowhere in reach? They punt the f***ing ball. Why? Because the game itself is more important than that particular possession, and the risk of turning the ball over and giving great field position isn't worth a completely unlikely event occurring which allows for the possession to continue. Similarly, the Sox need to "punt" Dunn's ass right out the door.

 

Roostifer I love ya man, but you're on the wrong side of the fence here.

 

 

Come sit down, have a cup of coffee, and let's discuss better days ahead: less stress, more fun, no mess, no Dunn.

Edited February 15, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[Balta1701]

The actual sad thing is...if the Sox didn't have Dunn on their roster, they'd probably be considering whether to sign a guy like him to balance out how overly right handed the middle of their order is. There's a good chance that next offseason a left hand hitting DH candidate who can hit 5th or so is shaping up to be a major roster need in order to turn this into a competitive team.

 

Had the White Sox not already done the Adam Dunn experience there's a decent chance they'd try signing him to a 1 year deal next offseason.

[BlackSox13]

De Aza is more important to this rebuild than Dunn, do you agree?

Nope. Neither are important as far as this rebuild is concerned because neither are what the Sox are rebuilding around in the first place.

[Marty34]

Playing Dunn ahead of De Aza costs the Sox $19M whereas letting Dunn go would only cost them $15M.

[BlackSox13]

This is absolutely true.

 

 

 

Why is it dumb? "Dumb" isn't a reason in itself.

 

 

 

How good does he have to be to even get someone to pick up $4-5M of that deal? Probably the best he's been since his Cincy days. And the likelihood of that is.....?

 

 

 

Right. We can probably all agree that at best we're looking at some middling prospect which we can probably easily acquire as it is by dealing minor league fringe players.

 

 

 

Back to reality again. How great does this guy have to be for a team to eat anything on this? Unrealistically good.

 

 

 

Take note Yankees! (just DFA'd Wells)

 

Take note Dodgers (who we should really copy if we can when it comes to the way they handled Andruw Jones, much to the delight of the player's association)

 

 

 

None of this matters. A bad deal is a bad deal. Just as the Angels moved forward from their mistake, just like the Yankees moved forward from theirs. Both viewed Wells as the sunk cost he is and then teams chose to make, collectively, one poor decision and one wise decision instead of two stupid decisions out of stubbornness.

 

 

 

FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

 

 

Finding a suitor to do WHAT?

 

We should play Dunn so maybe he becomes a fierce middle-of-the-order bat like the old days because then maybe we'll save some cash but probably still not even get anything or consequence? You know what most teams do on 4th down in the first quarter of the game when they're 15 yards back and a field goal is nowhere in reach? They punt the f***ing ball. Why? Because the game itself is more important than that particular possession, and the risk of turning the ball over and giving great field position isn't worth a completely unlikely event occurring which allows for the possession to continue. Similarly, the Sox need to "punt" Dunn's ass right out the door.

 

Roostifer I love ya man, but you're on the wrong side of the fence here.

 

 

Come sit down, have a cup of coffee, and let's discuss better days ahead: less stress, more fun, no mess, no Dunn.

Every question you just asked was answered in my post you quoted. Come on TUC.

[The Ultimate Champion]

One more time here:

 

The whole reason you hear "sunk cost" as being something important to know is because it is supposed to be a part of the larger thinking process. The idea is to take money out of the equation. Is the investment still worth it?

 

If Dunn is paid $0 or if he is paid $15M, is he worth a spot on the 40? Is he worth a spot on the 25? Is he worth PAs? Would you put him anywhere on this team if money isn't an object?

 

The answer is going to be 'no' pretty much across the board there. That means you don't continue investing in the guy. PAs and a roster spot is a huge investment for a rebuilding team and it is frivolous to make any additional investment in Dunn.

 

The coffee over here is f***in great. Also I really appreciate the Ultimate Warrior video too. That guy is classic. He makes sense too when you think about it as long as you don't listen to his political views, especially those on gays. But anyway, the coffee's great. Come on over.

[Marty34]

Nope. Neither are important as far as this rebuild is concerned because neither are what the Sox are rebuilding around in the first place.

 

De Aza though is more important than Dunn.

[The Ultimate Champion]

The actual sad thing is...if the Sox didn't have Dunn on their roster, they'd probably be considering whether to sign a guy like him to balance out how overly right handed the middle of their order is. There's a good chance that next offseason a left hand hitting DH candidate who can hit 5th or so is shaping up to be a major roster need in order to turn this into a competitive team.

 

Had the White Sox not already done the Adam Dunn experience there's a decent chance they'd try signing him to a 1 year deal next offseason.

I disagree with the first part but depending on how the Sox view Keon Barnum (KW says he's going to be a monster FWIW) they may be looking for a big lefty masher bat who is near MLB ready. But if they really believe in Barnum then maybe they'll pass, or go with a Chris Carter type as a buy-low/short-term potential reclamation type. But it'll be a younger guy, nothing near Dunn.

[BlackSox13]

Playing Dunn ahead of De Aza costs the Sox $19M whereas letting Dunn go would only cost them $15M.

As long as the Sox are paying Dunn it costs the same either way unless you find a team willing to take on Dunn's salary THEN you actually save money.

[BlackSox13]

De Aza though is more important than Dunn.

Really, this is your response?

 

Neither have importance as far as a rebuild is concerned because neither have a future with this team. Your point is irrelevant, in fact its not a point at all.

[The Ultimate Champion]

As long as the Sox are paying Dunn it costs the same either way unless you find a team willing to take on Dunn's salary THEN you actually save money.

What are the chances of any team offering to take on any significant portion of that salary? How great does he have to be? How far does the guy have to turn back the clock for any of that to happen? How realistic is ANY of that?

 

IMO it's more realistic that Felipe Paulino finishes top-5 in the Cy Young than it is Dunn looks like the Cincy masher & some team offers us a #10-15 spect out of a medicore system or $4-5M salary relief.

 

You're almost there. You're at the table, the waitress is just staring blankly at you chomping her gum (she's got other table ya know) just sit down and tell you want the coffee.

[Marty34]

As long as the Sox are paying Dunn it costs the same either way unless you find a team willing to take on Dunn's salary THEN you actually save money.

 

Why pay De Aza $4M to sit on the bench if you are rebuilding. If money is that big an issue they needed to non-tender him.

[Marty34]

Really, this is your response?

 

Neither have importance as far as a rebuild is concerned because neither have a future with this team. Your point is irrelevant, in fact its not a point at all.

 

It's difficult to believe anyone would think that Dunn and De Aza at worst hold the same value to this rebuild.

[BlackSox13]

What are the chances of any team offering to take on any significant portion of that salary? How great does he have to be? How far does the guy have to turn back the clock for any of that to happen? How realistic is ANY of that?

 

IMO it's more realistic that Felipe Paulino finishes top-5 in the Cy Young than it is Dunn looks like the Cincy masher & some team offers us a #10-15 spect out of a medicore system or $4-5M salary relief.

 

You're almost there. You're at the table, the waitress is just staring blankly at you chomping her gum (she's got other table ya know) just sit down and tell you want the coffee.

Paying Dunn to not play gives you zero salary relief whereas playing Dunn gives you a chance of trading him and getting SOME salary relief. If Dunn hits, OK, some team in contention just might be willing to take on the remainder of his salary in hopes that he can help them out and it would only be for the remainder of the season, no long term commitment as far as salary goes because hes a FA after 14 anyway. Not playing Dunn doesn't even give you this option yet still paying his salary.

 

[Marty34]

Paying Dunn to not play gives you zero salary relief whereas playing Dunn gives you a chance of trading him and getting SOME salary relief. If Dunn hits, OK, some team in contention just might be willing to take on the remainder of his salary in hopes that he can help them out and it would only be for the remainder of the season, no long term commitment as far as salary goes because hes a FA after 14 anyway. Not playing Dunn doesn't even give you this option yet still paying his salary.

 

Why pay De Aza $4M to sit on the bench if money is an issue.

[BlackSox13]

It's difficult to believe anyone would think that Dunn and De Aza at worst hold the same value to this rebuild.

Neither are a part of the future therefore neither hold any future value to this team.

[Marty34]

Neither are a part of the future therefore neither hold any future value to this team.

 

Why did they choose to pay De Aza $4M then.

[BlackSox13]

Why pay De Aza $4M to sit on the bench if money is an issue.

Well the obvious answer would be its better to pay ADA 4m to be the bench player that can rotate into the lineup to give days off to young players that aren't used to the 162 game grind as well as provide backup to injury then to pay Dunn 15m to stay off the team or to play for another.

[Marty34]

Well the obvious answer would be its better to pay ADA 4m to be the bench player that can rotate into the lineup to give days off to young players that aren't used to the 162 game grind as well as provide backup to injury then to pay Dunn 15m to stay off the team or to play for another.

 

A Danks/Dunn roster combination accomplishes the same thing at a savings of about $4M.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I disagree with the first part but depending on how the Sox view Keon Barnum (KW says he's going to be a monster FWIW) they may be looking for a big lefty masher bat who is near MLB ready. But if they really believe in Barnum then maybe they'll pass, or go with a Chris Carter type as a buy-low/short-term potential reclamation type. But it'll be a younger guy, nothing near Dunn.

 

 

So you could b**** more about how worthless he is?

 

Chris Carter- 506 ABs 212 Ks 29 HRs .223/.320/.451

Adam Dunn- 525 ABs 189 Ks 34 HRs .219/.320/.442

 

Sure he'll cost a whole lot less, but Dunns already a sunk cost right?

[BlackSox13]

A Danks/Dunn roster combination accomplishes the same thing at a savings of about $4M.

Again, paying ADA 4m to serve as a bench player that hits well enough to play ever day is a far cry from paying Dunn 15m to not play at all which is what we were discussing in the first place. Apples and oranges really.

 

As long as the Sox are paying Dunn, I want his ass in the lineup, period.

[Marty34]

Again, paying ADA 4m to serve as a bench player that hits well enough to play ever day is a far cry from paying Dunn 15m to not play at all which is what we were discussing in the first place. Apples and oranges really.

 

As long as the Sox are paying Dunn, I want his ass in the lineup, period.

 

At the expense of the rebuilding effort. That is tremendously shortsighted.

[Balta1701]

At the expense of the rebuilding effort. That is tremendously shortsighted.

Actually by balancing the middle of the lineup with a lefty bat, which De Aza won't do because he's not a middle of the order bat, Dunns presence should be quite valuable for Garcia and Abreu. The team absolutely needs to break those righties up and De Aza will not be hitting 5th any time soon.

[Marty34]

Actually by balancing the middle of the lineup with a lefty bat, which De Aza won't do because he's not a middle of the order bat, Dunns presence should be quite valuable for Garcia and Abreu. The team absolutely needs to break those righties up and De Aza will not be hitting 5th any time soon.

 

Why do they need to break the right-handed hitters up and why couldn't De Aza bat in the middle of the order if need be?

[BlackSox13]

At the expense of the rebuilding effort. That is tremendously shortsighted.

Talk about short sighted, look at your posts sometime.

 

Dunn in the lineup hinders nobody. Now we have official come full circle.

 

Anybody hear anything else about Capuano? Are the Sox really interested?