Asking Prices Beginning to Fall

[witesoxfan]

If nothing else, this board sure knows how to make and continue analogies. Holy criminy.

 

Also, Scherzer scares me in the way I think most people get scared of Sale. He just seems to have such a violent delivery that I can't help but think that UCL is just going to snap one of these days.

[Eminor3rd]

Dad's a top shelf mechanic truth be told. A cooper comparison perhaps.

 

Haha, we're driving this one into the ground. Pun intended.

[Eminor3rd]

I subscribe to the Szymborski/Sullivan school of pitcher risk: we should always be scared of all pitchers getting injured all the time.

[LittleHurt05]

How is this thread not locked yet?

[Marty34]

I do too. I've never seen a 5+ year contract to a pitcher that I have liked. Except, ironically, Chris Sale's.

 

Yes, they are shocking figures, but it's the price of business. Rarely is payroll mismanagement a reason why a team is not contending. A-Rod's contract with Texas was the true albatross.

[witesoxfan]

Yes, they are shocking figures, but it's the price of business. Rarely is payroll mismanagement a reason why a team is not contending. A-Rod's contract with Texas was the true albatross.

 

Chronologically speaking, the Mets, Cubs, and Phillies fall in line with this too. You could make an argument for the Angels, but I think their primary problem is making poor choices in free agency rather than a payroll problem, but due to the two albatrosses they have in Hamilton and Pujols, they are going to be paying a lot more in the coming years if/when they lock up Trout, and even going year to year with him could get very expensive very quickly.

 

Also, we can't act like ARod's contract with the Yankees right now is something that's easily movable or isn't an albatross of a contract, because it's not and it's very much a terrible contract. I also think the Dodgers could be in a lot of trouble in the next 3-5 years when some of these funds suddenly dry up because they've spent so much in luxury taxes.

Edited February 20, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Eminor3rd]

Chronologically speaking, the Mets, Cubs, and Phillies fall in line with this too. You could make an argument for the Angels, but I think their primary problem is making poor choices in free agency rather than a payroll problem, but due to the two albatrosses they have in Hamilton and Pujols, they are going to be paying a lot more in the coming years if/when they lock up Trout, and even going year to year with him could get very expensive very quickly.

 

Also, we can't act like ARod's contract with the Yankees right now is something that's easily movable or isn't an albatross of a contract, because it's not and it's very much a terrible contract. I also think the Dodgers could be in a lot of trouble in the next 3-5 years when some of these funds suddenly dry up because they've spent so much in luxury taxes.

 

Not to mention the Astros. The Cubs , Astros, and Mets are both going through extremely tough rebuilds exclusively because of poor long-term contract decisions. The Yankees have been mediocre the past few years thanks to an attempt to avoid the luxury tax threshold, and they are now living the nightmare of the end of ARod, Teixeira, and Sabathia contracts that they bought along with the earlier prime years.

 

With all due respect, Marty, I have no idea how you can look around baseball and say that albatross contracts are rarely a factor in sustained success. 10% of the league is in full disaster recovery rebuild, and at least another 10% are aging contenders with their hands tied. And these are all medium to large markets. It took the Pirates 20 years to build a winning core of players without the luxury of affording an albatross, and the Rays have traded multiple franchise-level players (Price is next) in order to avoid having to extend them. The Twins (Mauer) and Brewers (Braun) are next in line as those guys start to decline.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[witesoxfan]

Not to mention the Astros. The Cubs , Astros, and Mets are both going through extremely tough rebuilds exclusively because of poor long-term contract decisions. The Yankees have been mediocre the past few years thanks to an attempt to avoid the luxury tax threshold, and they are now living the nightmare of the end of ARod, Teixeira, and Sabathia contracts that they bought along with the earlier prime years.

 

With all due respect, Marty, I have no idea how you can look around baseball and say that albatross contracts are rarely a factor in sustained success. 10% of the league is in full disaster recovery rebuild, and at least another 10% are aging contenders with their hands tied. And these are all medium to large markets. It took the Pirates 20 years to build a winning core of players without the luxury of affording an albatross, and the Rays have traded multiple franchise-level players (Price is next) in order to avoid having to extend them. The Twins (Mauer) and Brewers (Braun) are next in line as those guys start to decline.

 

The Rockies could easily be heading that way with CarGo and Tulo too. With guys like that, it's hard to deny the talent that's there, and you have to pay them, but when the rest of your team is suffering as a result, you should almost work with a team to try and get said player moved. Look at what Dombrowski did with an absolutely terrible contract in Fielder.

[Dick Allen]

The Rockies could easily be heading that way with CarGo and Tulo too. With guys like that, it's hard to deny the talent that's there, and you have to pay them, but when the rest of your team is suffering as a result, you should almost work with a team to try and get said player moved. Look at what Dombrowski did with an absolutely terrible contract in Fielder.

I don't understand your position. You say ARods contract is an albatross, yet the Yankees spent half a billion this offseason on free agents. You say Fielder had an awful contract, yet Dombrowski was able to move it. If you are making a point that taking on these contracts will keep you from doing anything else, (and Santana or Jimenez aren't exactly at ARod or Prince's price level) I think you are using some really bad examples. If anything, they go totally against your point.

[witesoxfan]

I don't understand your position. You say ARods contract is an albatross, yet the Yankees spent half a billion this offseason on free agents. You say Fielder had an awful contract, yet Dombrowski was able to move it. If you are making a point that taking on these contracts will keep you from doing anything else, (and Santana or Jimenez aren't exactly at ARod or Prince's price level) I think you are using some really bad examples. If anything, they go totally against your point.

 

No. The Yankees can afford a $30 million hit because, as you said, they can spend half a billion dollars and $200 million in any given year. That's the equivalent to $15 million in dead money on a normal team. It's not like it's a good thing or something easy to deal with. Dombrowski was incredibly lucky that he was able to get a declining 2B who is guaranteed $62 million over the next 4 years while still including $30 million on top of Prince Fielder's deal. Now, re-read that sentence slowly to take it all in.

 

The only thing I may have done was not explain myself. If you are somehow suggesting that it's a good thing to sign Alex Rodriguez to a 10 year, $300 million deal or Prince Fielder to a 9 years, $214 million deal are GOOD things, then I have some ocean front property in my backyard to sell you too.

Edited February 20, 2014 by witesoxfan

[southsider2k5]

No. The Yankees can afford a $30 million hit because, as you said, they can spend half a billion dollars and $200 million in any given year. That's the equivalent to $15 million in dead money on a normal team. It's not like it's a good thing or something easy to deal with. Dombrowski was incredibly lucky that he was able to get a declining 2B who is guaranteed $62 million over the next 4 years while still including $30 million on top of Prince Fielder's deal. Now, re-read that sentence slowly to take it all in.

 

The only thing I may have done was not explain myself. If you are somehow suggesting that it's a good thing to sign Alex Rodriguez to a 10 year, $300 million deal or Prince Fielder to a 9 years, $214 million deal are GOOD things, then I have some ocean front property in my backyard to sell you too.

 

Not to mention the Yankees had been sitting out the FA market for a couple of years because of their obligations.

[harfman77]

I don't understand your position. You say ARods contract is an albatross, yet the Yankees spent half a billion this offseason on free agents. You say Fielder had an awful contract, yet Dombrowski was able to move it. If you are making a point that taking on these contracts will keep you from doing anything else, (and Santana or Jimenez aren't exactly at ARod or Prince's price level) I think you are using some really bad examples. If anything, they go totally against your point.

 

The Yankees were trying to stay under the luxury tax, something that they could not do and compete thanks to the crazy contracts they gave out. Of course the Yankees can afford to spend whatever, there are reports that YES nets them more than $100M/season, plus they sold 49% of the network to NewsCorp in 2012 for ~$1.5B and another $1B this year for another 31%. Obviously money is not an issue for them, they could pay 10 teams at the luxury tax level, but they have no chance at competing if they are going to stay under the threshold.

[royoung]

I don't understand your position. You say ARods contract is an albatross, yet the Yankees spent half a billion this offseason on free agents. You say Fielder had an awful contract, yet Dombrowski was able to move it. If you are making a point that taking on these contracts will keep you from doing anything else, (and Santana or Jimenez aren't exactly at ARod or Prince's price level) I think you are using some really bad examples. If anything, they go totally against your point.

 

I would say a better example would be the Cubs circa 2010. They were handing out misguided contracts like candy; Soriano, Silva, Lilly, Zambrano, Lee, Dempster, Ramirez, and Fukudome all received 4 or more years at 10 million plus per year. That is terrible team management and it forced them to jettison those contracts for next to nothing or simply eat them.

[witesoxfan]

Last year, the Yankees received significant playing time from Chris Stewart, Lyle Overybay, Eduardo Nunez, Jayson Nix, Vernon Wells, Ichiro Suzuki, Travis Hafner, David Adams, and Austin Romine. Overbay's OPS was .688 and Hafner's .679, which were the best out of that group.

 

Tell me some more about how Alex Rodriguez's contract didn't affect them. Now, considering it doesn't count against their payroll this year, while shedding a few other contracts, they were able to bring in a few new players while staying under the luxury tax. They won't be under it next year.

[elrockinMT]

Yes, they are shocking figures, but it's the price of business. Rarely is payroll mismanagement a reason why a team is not contending. A-Rod's contract with Texas was the true albatross.

 

 

I think that contract is what started all this craziness. It will be interesting to see how long Cano lasts. Pujols, Hamilton et al have already slumped or been injured

[Chicago White Sox]

Last year, the Yankees received significant playing time from Chris Stewart, Lyle Overybay, Eduardo Nunez, Jayson Nix, Vernon Wells, Ichiro Suzuki, Travis Hafner, David Adams, and Austin Romine. Overbay's OPS was .688 and Hafner's .679, which were the best out of that group.

 

Tell me some more about how Alex Rodriguez's contract didn't affect them. Now, considering it doesn't count against their payroll this year, while shedding a few other contracts, they were able to bring in a few new players while staying under the luxury tax. They won't be under it next year.

I'm pretty certain the Yankees won't be under the luxury tax this year.

[Dick Allen]

Last year, the Yankees received significant playing time from Chris Stewart, Lyle Overybay, Eduardo Nunez, Jayson Nix, Vernon Wells, Ichiro Suzuki, Travis Hafner, David Adams, and Austin Romine. Overbay's OPS was .688 and Hafner's .679, which were the best out of that group.

 

Tell me some more about how Alex Rodriguez's contract didn't affect them. Now, considering it doesn't count against their payroll this year, while shedding a few other contracts, they were able to bring in a few new players while staying under the luxury tax. They won't be under it next year.

The Yankees had a ton of injuries last year. They had nothing to trade for fill ins.Any team that has that many injuries are going to be playing some weaker players.

 

When 75% of your regular infield is on the DL, guys like Jayson Nix get playing time.

 

To me an albatross contract is one which then limits what you can do. The Yankees have no problem with payroll. They did not want to go over the tax last year, but if their guys were healthy and they had a legit shot, I think it would have been a different story.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

The Yankees had a ton of injuries last year. They had nothing to trade for fill ins.Any team that has that many injuries are going to be playing some weaker players.

 

When 75% of your regular infield is on the DL, guys like Jayson Nix get playing time.

 

So you somehow think that players who are in their early to mid 30s tend to stay healthy? They were a bit snakebitten, but to expect a team that old to stay completely healthy all year is ridiculous.

[Marty34]

Not to mention the Astros. The Cubs , Astros, and Mets are both going through extremely tough rebuilds exclusively because of poor long-term contract decisions. The Yankees have been mediocre the past few years thanks to an attempt to avoid the luxury tax threshold, and they are now living the nightmare of the end of ARod, Teixeira, and Sabathia contracts that they bought along with the earlier prime years.

 

With all due respect, Marty, I have no idea how you can look around baseball and say that albatross contracts are rarely a factor in sustained success. 10% of the league is in full disaster recovery rebuild, and at least another 10% are aging contenders with their hands tied. And these are all medium to large markets. It took the Pirates 20 years to build a winning core of players without the luxury of affording an albatross, and the Rays have traded multiple franchise-level players (Price is next) in order to avoid having to extend them. The Twins (Mauer) and Brewers (Braun) are next in line as those guys start to decline.

 

I did not say it was not the reason for sustained success.

 

The reason these teams had to spend money was because their farm system wasn't producing and most importantly because they had it to spend. How would the Phillies be better off if they didn't sign players to big contracts? The turnstiles kept moving. Look at the Cubs they do a full rebuild and their attendance is way down.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Last year, the Yankees received significant playing time from Chris Stewart, Lyle Overybay, Eduardo Nunez, Jayson Nix, Vernon Wells, Ichiro Suzuki, Travis Hafner, David Adams, and Austin Romine. Overbay's OPS was .688 and Hafner's .679, which were the best out of that group.

 

Tell me some more about how Alex Rodriguez's contract didn't affect them. Now, considering it doesn't count against their payroll this year, while shedding a few other contracts, they were able to bring in a few new players while staying under the luxury tax. They won't be under it next year.

 

Everytime I think of Chris Stewart being the starting catcher for the New York Yankees I just have to laugh. They handed out bad contract after bad contract and it finally started to affect them. This year they lucked out with the A-Rod suspension. It would be interesting to know whether they would have still signed all three of Ellsbury, McCann and Tanaka had the whole A-Rod thing not happened.

[Marty34]

Last year, the Yankees received significant playing time from Chris Stewart, Lyle Overybay, Eduardo Nunez, Jayson Nix, Vernon Wells, Ichiro Suzuki, Travis Hafner, David Adams, and Austin Romine. Overbay's OPS was .688 and Hafner's .679, which were the best out of that group.

 

Tell me some more about how Alex Rodriguez's contract didn't affect them. Now, considering it doesn't count against their payroll this year, while shedding a few other contracts, they were able to bring in a few new players while staying under the luxury tax. They won't be under it next year.

 

Alex Rodriguez is wearing a Yankees World Series ring.

[Dick Allen]

So you somehow think that players who are in their early to mid 30s tend to stay healthy? They were a bit snakebitten, but to expect a team that old to stay completely healthy all year is ridiculous.

I don't know why players are supposedly done when they hit 30. I think Carlton Fisk was 33 or 34 when he came to the White Sox.

 

Mike Trout is going to get paid into his 30s with his next contract. If he were a White Sox, I guess you would want them to trade him instead of being stuck with an "albotross".

 

A $50 million contract isn't an albatross to the White Sox. They still made moves when they had Adam Dunn signed to one. Konerko came back. AJ came back. They spent $68 million for Abreu and he will be past 30 when it expires. They were going to spend almost double that for Tanaka.

 

Buy their line they are right at their breaking point. But remember when you do, you are ignoring their actions the past several years.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I don't know why players are supposedly done when they hit 30. I think Carlton Fisk was 33 or 34 when he came to the White Sox.

 

Mike Trout is going to get paid into his 30s with his next contract. If he were a White Sox, I guess you would want them to trade him instead of being stuck with an "albotross".

 

A $50 million contract isn't an albatross to the White Sox. They still made moves when they had Adam Dunn signed to one. Konerko came back. AJ came back. They spent $68 million for Abreu and he will be past 30 when it expires. They were going to spend almost double that for Tanaka.

 

Buy their line they are right at their breaking point. But remember when you do, you are ignoring their actions the past several years.

 

Who said the Sox were at their breaking point. Hahn has repeatedly said that there was money available for the right players, just that they were not going to spend money for the sake of spending money. I think all questions of whether the Sox are willing to spend went right out the window when they offered a 6/120 deal to a pitcher who's never pitched in the Majors.

[harfman77]

I don't know why players are supposedly done when they hit 30. I think Carlton Fisk was 33 or 34 when he came to the White Sox.

 

Mike Trout is going to get paid into his 30s with his next contract. If he were a White Sox, I guess you would want them to trade him instead of being stuck with an "albotross".

 

A $50 million contract isn't an albatross to the White Sox. They still made moves when they had Adam Dunn signed to one. Konerko came back. AJ came back. They spent $68 million for Abreu and he will be past 30 when it expires. They were going to spend almost double that for Tanaka.

 

Buy their line they are right at their breaking point. But remember when you do, you are ignoring their actions the past several years.

 

In the steroid testing era, players are regressing much earlier in their 30's than they did even 5 years ago, so a lot of those contracts are going to keep looking worse and worse as time progresses. Teams are going to stop building through FA and build internally and supplement via FA. Thats part of the reason the Yankees are talking about throwing out $20M in the international amateur market this season, because they cannot sustain success by signing players that are exiting their prime seasons.

[witesoxfan]

Alex Rodriguez is wearing a Yankees World Series ring.

 

Timo Perez is wearing a White Sox World Series ring. I don't understand your point. That, because he won a World Series, his $300 million contract is suddenly justified? That's absolutely ridiculous logic.

 

I don't know why players are supposedly done when they hit 30. I think Carlton Fisk was 33 or 34 when he came to the White Sox.

 

Mike Trout is going to get paid into his 30s with his next contract. If he were a White Sox, I guess you would want them to trade him instead of being stuck with an "albotross".

 

A $50 million contract isn't an albatross to the White Sox. They still made moves when they had Adam Dunn signed to one. Konerko came back. AJ came back. They spent $68 million for Abreu and he will be past 30 when it expires. They were going to spend almost double that for Tanaka.

 

Buy their line they are right at their breaking point. But remember when you do, you are ignoring their actions the past several years.

 

You are the worst. I *NEVER* said people are done at 30. I implied that players in the early to mid 30s tend to be more injury prone. Are you going to disagree with that?

 

I'm not going to bother responding to anything else before you respond to that. If you disagree that players in the early to mid 30s are more injury prone, then you are doing nothing but trolling at this point, which is a suspendable offense.