Asking Prices Beginning to Fall

[GreenSox]

Just read on rotoworld that Ervin Santanta's asking price has dropped "significantly", maybe even to 3 years.

 

At worst he's a trade chip that could be very valuable, especially in year 2's trade deadline.

 

My top offer if I'm RH to him probably still isn't enough, but maybe at this point it could get it done.

 

I don't offer him any more guaranteed than 3/33, but at $11/year, or 10/11/12, at worst he's a bloated contract #3 guy who some team with lots of added TV revenue will look to add at any time of need.

 

Arroyo is not an idea pitcher for the Sox and the Cell but a very ideal pitcher for what we need. A RH innings eater. He may even go to 2 years, but is most likely looking for 3 to get a deal done. He is older but durable. I wouldn't go more than 3/24, but at that price I would bite, again for a most likely solid trade chip this year or next with a stable RH option in the rotation.

 

Thoughts and max offers you would give?

We aren't in a position to give up draft choices for an inconsistent pitcher.

Arroyo is a mediocre innings eater..don't need that.

The Sox need to get into a position to compete for many years. Stockpile prospects and draft choices...don't give up draft choices or trade away every ready prospect who we have to keep in AAA to plug some hole with a mediocre/declining veteran.

Edited February 5, 2014 by GreenSox

[Dick Allen]

We aren't in a position to give up draft choices for an inconsistent pitcher.

Arroyo is a mediocre innings eater..don't need that.

The Sox need to get into a position to compete for many years. Stockpile prospects and draft choices...don't give up draft choices or trade away every ready prospect who we have to keep in AAA to plug some hole with a mediocre/declining veteran.

I would be more inclined to sign Jimenez if his price dipped that low. His problem was his delivery. He changed it and is far more consistent. He was dominant the last half of the season and was dominant in Colorado. Cooper's emphasis is on repeatable delivery. Jimenez took a couple of MPHs off his stuff last year and was really successful after an awful start. If he was available for 3 years at $13 million a year, despite what some think, he is a far better pitcher than Paulino (and actually younger too), and will most likely be a far better player than the currently #43 pick while increasing the White Sox talent level and pitching depth to cover for trade, non performance and injury.

 

If the White Sox really have 5 to 7 pitchers as good as Jimenez as has also been claimed, they are going to be winning a lot more than 71-78 games.

 

Obviously Hahn has said he is not signing anyone linked to giving up a draft pick, so unless he is posturing, the point is moot. But I think, if the price gets to this point and he doesn't change his mind, he is making a mistake. Scott Kazmir costs $22 million. Next year or the year after, you may be competing to sign guys with the big boys again and that doesn't work out so well. The Sox got Abreu because they sat out on him.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

If the White Sox really have 5 to 7 pitchers as good as Jimenez as has also been claimed, they are going to be winning a lot more than 71-78 games.

GMAB.

 

That's not what anyone has said and you know that. They've said "we have the kind of pitchers we need right now".

 

Erik Johnson might well not outpitch Jiminez this season. He's a rookie, rookies often struggle and take several years to develop. But that doesn't mean we should immediately decide not to give him the opportunity to start that learning process.

[Dick Allen]

GMAB.

 

That's not what anyone has said and you know that. They've said "we have the kind of pitchers we need right now".

 

Erik Johnson might well not outpitch Jiminez this season. He's a rookie, rookies often struggle and take several years to develop. But that doesn't mean we should immediately decide not to give him the opportunity to start that learning process.

Who said anything about not giving Johnson a chance?

[Balta1701]

Who said anything about not giving Johnson a chance?

Plug whatever name into that slot you want. It works just as well for Paulino, Rienzo, and so on.

[Dick Allen]

Plug whatever name into that slot you want. It works just as well for Paulino, Rienzo, and so on.

And if they earn a job pitching on the major league level, they will pitch. Teams that have only used 5 or 6 starters the entire year the past 50 years, can probably be counted on one hand. If you are good enough to pitch, you will eventually pitch.

 

If the White Sox are so talented with starting pitchers that there is no room for someone of Jimenez's ilk, they are definitely a playoff contending team.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

If the White Sox are so talented with starting pitchers that there is no room for someone of Jimenez's ilk, they are definitely a playoff contending team.

Congratulations. You just completely, utterly ignored every single word I said. Well done. Well done and applause.

[Dick Allen]

Congratulations. You just completely, utterly ignored every single word I said. Well done. Well done and applause.

You seem to have a fetish that some others have on this board, and actually like to watch guys like Axelrod take the mound to get hammered time and time again before you are fairly certain they shouldn't be in a playoff contender's starting rotation.

 

As I stated, there will be plenty of starts to go around if pitchers show they are worthy. Paulino has never pitched 140 innings in a season and is coming off a missed season. It is very unlikely he can or will make 30 starts. Rienzo has to prove he belongs. He hasn't yet. A stint in the bullpen or some more time at Charlotte could be good for him. Others will go down with injuries or if everyone is pitching well another team will need someone, because it pretty much happens every year except once . In 2005 the White Sox only used 6 starters.

[caulfield12]

Edwin Jackson

[caulfield12]

Edwin Jackson

[caulfield12]

You seem to have a fetish that some others have on this board, and actually like to watch guys like Axelrod take the mound to get hammered time and time again before you are fairly certain they shouldn't be in a playoff contender's starting rotation.

 

As I stated, there will be plenty of starts to go around if pitchers show they are worthy. Paulino has never pitched 140 innings in a season and is coming off a missed season. It is very unlikely he can or will make 30 starts. Rienzo has to prove he belongs. He hasn't yet. A stint in the bullpen or some more time at Charlotte could be good for him. Others will go down with injuries or if everyone is pitching well another team will need someone, because it pretty much happens every year except once . In 2005 the White Sox only used 6 starters.

 

 

Will Jimenez make the White Sox a playoff contender next year?

 

How do you plan to replace Dunn/LH bat, catcher, SS/2B (we can assume Semien for one of those positions, probably, but can't be sure as he wasn't even on most top Sox prospect lists coming into 2013) and any weaknesses at the back end of the bullpen?

 

 

[Balta1701]

You seem to have a fetish that some others have on this board, and actually like to watch guys like Axelrod take the mound to get hammered time and time again before you are fairly certain they shouldn't be in a playoff contender's starting rotation.

 

As I stated, there will be plenty of starts to go around if pitchers show they are worthy. Paulino has never pitched 140 innings in a season and is coming off a missed season. It is very unlikely he can or will make 30 starts. Rienzo has to prove he belongs. He hasn't yet. A stint in the bullpen or some more time at Charlotte could be good for him. Others will go down with injuries or if everyone is pitching well another team will need someone, because it pretty much happens every year except once . In 2005 the White Sox only used 6 starters.

Wait a second...so the White Sox's rotation would be "Sale, Quintana, Danks, Jiminez, and EJ"...which one of those are we expecting to go down with this long-term injury? If we're planning for that...isn't one of the likely onest o go down...Jiminez?

[Dick Allen]

Wait a second...so the White Sox's rotation would be "Sale, Quintana, Danks, Jiminez, and EJ"...which one of those are we expecting to go down with this long-term injury? If we're planning for that...isn't one of the likely onest o go down...Jiminez?

Whether they sign Jimenez or not, there are overwhelming odds a White Sox starting pitcher spends some time on the DL in 2014.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Whether they sign Jimenez or not, there are overwhelming odds a White Sox starting pitcher spends some time on the DL in 2014.

 

As is true of every MLB team. They have Paulino, Surkamp, and Rienzo available to take starts for the 5th spot going into Spring Training and that can change as the season progresses as well.

[Dick Allen]

Edwin Jackson

 

You aren't giving the White Sox pitching coach a glowing endorsement if a pitcher as talented as Jimenez is sure to fail.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Will Jimenez make the White Sox a playoff contender next year?

 

How do you plan to replace Dunn/LH bat, catcher, SS/2B (we can assume Semien for one of those positions, probably, but can't be sure as he wasn't even on most top Sox prospect lists coming into 2013) and any weaknesses at the back end of the bullpen?

First off, money is not an issue. The White Sox were prepared to part with $120 million earlier this offseason including a $20 million posting fee. If Jimenez signed for 3 years and $39 million, that is half covered just with the posting fee. Dunn's salary is off the books next season as well.

 

Adding to the White Sox stable of pitchers doesn't hurt you in any way, and especially if you have to deal a decent one to pick up another piece.

 

The only way this is a bad move is if Jimenez bombs. I don't think he will.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

In all fairness, it's a testament (negatively) to the state of our minor league system that Dylan Axelrod was more or less the best starting option for the first 2-3 months last year.

 

That said, the White Sox minor league system produced a plethora of relievers the season before, as well as Quintana and Santiago (at least smart scouting in the case of Quintana)...and then Johnson last year, so that's 3 quality starters in 2 seasons that are offsetting the poor allocation of resources into Dunn/Danks/Keppinger.

 

And the depth with Rienzo/Surkamp/Paulino and eventually Beck means they can allocate those $10-15 million they were going to spend on a pitcher somewhere else, not to mention the savings created from likely trading Alexei Ramirez and in all probability DeAza and/or Beckham as well.

Edited February 5, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

In all fairness, it's a testament (negatively) to the state of our minor league system that Dylan Axelrod was more or less the best starting option for the first 2-3 months last year.

 

That said, the White Sox minor league system produced a plethora of relievers the season before, as well as Quintana and Santiago (at least smart scouting in the case of Quintana)...and then Johnson last year, so that's 3 quality starters in 2 seasons that are offsetting the poor allocation of resources into Dunn/Danks/Keppinger.

 

And the depth with Rienzo/Surkamp/Paulino and eventually Beck means they can allocate those $10-15 million they were going to spend on a pitcher somewhere else, not to mention the savings created from likely trading Alexei Ramirez and in all probability DeAza and/or Beckham as well.

I don't call guys with just a minute chance of being effective pitchers on good teams "depth". Guys that make you quesy just putting their name on the line up card. It is OK if you don't plan on winning, but the White Sox plan on winning.

 

Rienzo has never been that great in the minors and really had a tough time keeping the ball in the ballpark when he was called up. Surkamp to me is left handed for Axelrod, and the Paulino love is unreal. I think I posted the last time Paulino pitched which was June of 2012, Paulie was hitting .376 with an 1.100 OPS. Paulino was really good in 6 starts in 2012, he was injured in the first inning of start 7, but basing his future success after major surgery on a guy over 30 on 6 starts is crazy. Maybe they catch lightning in a bottle, but chances are, he is going to have his struggles. He does resemble Bartolo Colon at the waistline, so I imagine some shots will be directed that way in gamethreads when they happen.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Whether they sign Jimenez or not, there are overwhelming odds a White Sox starting pitcher spends some time on the DL in 2014.

 

So the idea is to spend $40 million for a team that won't contend, on a pitcher because we need an extra pitcher in case of injury.

[Dick Allen]

So the idea is to spend $40 million for a team that won't contend, on a pitcher because we need an extra pitcher in case of injury.

Again, the idea is to increase the talent level of the team, and to create real depth. Not Dylan Axelrod depth. Depth to me is guys you would confidently put on the mound and guys other teams would actually give you something of value to acquire. If John Groce let the TKE intramural team join the Illini as walk ons and called that depth, everyone would laugh. That, is Dylan Axelrod depth.

 

Also, it may save you money if you plan on signing a free agent next year. If you want Homer Bailey next offseason, but Magic Johnson does as well, you are either out of luck or writing checks that will be a lot bigger than the checks you would be writing for Jimenez.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

I don't call guys with just a minute chance of being effective pitchers on good teams "depth". Guys that make you quesy just putting their name on the line up card. It is OK if you don't plan on winning, but the White Sox plan on winning.

 

Rienzo has never been that great in the minors and really had a tough time keeping the ball in the ballpark when he was called up. Surkamp to me is left handed for Axelrod, and the Paulino love is unreal. I think I posted the last time Paulino pitched which was June of 2012, Paulie was hitting .376 with an 1.100 OPS. Paulino was really good in 6 starts in 2012, he was injured in the first inning of start 7, but basing his future success after major surgery on a guy over 30 on 6 starts is crazy. Maybe they catch lightning in a bottle, but chances are, he is going to have his struggles. He does resemble Bartolo Colon at the waistline, so I imagine some shots will be directed that way in gamethreads when they happen.

 

 

The irony with Colon is that the last time we had him, it seemed like the end of his career and he was a legit Cy Young contender for most of last season.

 

As has been mentioned over and over again in the 2-3 threads on this, there's surely a magic number in terms of years and total dollar amount that would pique the interest of Hahn and company.

 

It's not 4 years, but it's probably 2 (and maybe 3) years with some type of option.

 

 

Konerko has never been in 5% body fat shape, and it hasn't ever really impacted his performance, but it has been used a lot as the reason for Viciedo's and Dunn's struggles. As some of the older fans here know, Tony Gwynn and John Kruk were great hitters who didn't even look like they played professional sports if you saw them walking past you on the street.

 

 

 

 

[Marty34]

So the idea is to spend $40 million for a team that won't contend, on a pitcher because we need an extra pitcher in case of injury.

 

If you expect the Sox to contend at any point over the next three years, Jimenez is a bargain at the price he's going to go for.

[Marty34]

Again, the idea is to increase the talent level of the team, and to create real depth. Not Dylan Axelrod depth. Depth to me is guys you would confidently put on the mound and guys other teams would actually give you something of value to acquire. If John Groce let the TKE intramural team join the Illini as walk ons and called that depth, everyone would laugh. That, is Dylan Axelrod depth.

 

Also, it may save you money if you plan on signing a free agent next year. If you want Homer Bailey next offseason, but Magic Johnson does as well, you are either out of luck or writing checks that will be a lot bigger than the checks you would be writing for Jimenez.

 

If the Sox can claim 7 starting pitchers for 5 spots, I'd be surprised if at least 20 other teams couldn't do the same. Doesn't Rienzo profile better as a pen guy anyway?

[ptatc]

Again, the idea is to increase the talent level of the team, and to create real depth. Not Dylan Axelrod depth. Depth to me is guys you would confidently put on the mound and guys other teams would actually give you something of value to acquire. If John Groce let the TKE intramural team join the Illini as walk ons and called that depth, everyone would laugh. That, is Dylan Axelrod depth.

 

Also, it may save you money if you plan on signing a free agent next year. If you want Homer Bailey next offseason, but Magic Johnson does as well, you are either out of luck or writing checks that will be a lot bigger than the checks you would be writing for Jimenez.

Your point is a good one for overall talent. The problem is if the Sox believe both Johnson and Paulino are ready for the MLB, you are not helping their progress by keeping one of them in the minors. The Sox have Sale, Danks and Q for the rotation. If they add anyone from the outside you are defeating the purpose of developing talent by keeping them from the MLB. Your choice is to add outside immediate talent vs. developing the ones you currently have.

Both are valid it just depends on your goal for this year. I personally, would rather see what the Sox have with Johnson and Paulino.

[witesoxfan]

If the Sox can claim 7 starting pitchers for 5 spots, I'd be surprised if at least 20 other teams couldn't do the same. Doesn't Rienzo profile better as a pen guy anyway?

 

I'm sure most can. Please be aware that I've never suggested Surkamp or Rienzo are going to be good, merely that they are talented or semi talented 6th starters for the Sox, and the only guy I have any sort of faith in among that final 3 is Paulino.