Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:38 PM) Rienzo and Surkamp and Axelrod have been tried and convicted of being not so good. This is not true though. Axelrod is what he is but you have no idea what Surkamp and Rienzo are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:40 PM) Last year, the White Sox came in 8th in MLB in fWAR from their pitching staff. All 10 playoff teams were in the top 19 in fWAR from their pitching staff and 9 of the 10 were in the top 16, so fWAR from pitching staff is doing a decent job of sorting out the playoff teams highly. The #7 team was the Braves, the #9 team was the Cardinals. Both playoff teams, one made the world series. The #3 team on the list won the world series. The White Sox 2013 pitching staff put up numbers 100% comparable to plenty of teams that made the playoffs. And yet somehow...they were not competitive for a playoff spot. So you could honestly say the White Sox didn't need pitching last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:38 PM) Rienzo and Surkamp and Axelrod have been tried and convicted of being not so good. Nobody has brought up Axelrod except you. He was tried and proven to be awful. He's like the 9th or 10th starter I'd use, but he may be 6th in the event of a one start deal simply because the organization won't care about potentially losing him. He's Jeff Gray. -Andre Rienzo made 10 starts, pitched 56 innings last year and held his own. It wasn't pretty, but he has a solid if unspectacular track record in the minors. -Eric Surkamp has made 7 starts and pitched 26.2 innings. It was ugly, but he's the 7th option and has had success in the minors. I'm pretty sure you've supported giving Beckham another chance, and the Sox have given him 5 SEASONS to get his act in order. Why would you write off two starting pitchers because of a combined total of 82.2 innings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:42 PM) This is not true though. Axelrod is what he is but you have no idea what Surkamp and Rienzo are. Rienzo to me is a reliever at best, but certainly not a guy that holds a permanent rotation spot. Surkamp admittedly hasn't been with the White Sox, but was tatooed when the Giants gave him a chance, and every team in the NL and the Astros could have had him for nothing but passed. Many teams have been wrong before, but that doesn't inspire me any confidence to say he has a really decent chance of being a good starting pitcher. He appears to be a classic AAAA guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:37 PM) And wow, they used him as a starting pitcher in the big leagues for several months last year. Following that logic...he's potentially a young big league starter in their eyes. And should get a multi-year contract at 8 figures per season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:42 PM) So you could honestly say the White Sox didn't need pitching last year? Quit putting words in people's mouths. He didn't say they couldn't use more. He said it was pretty damn good last year. The answer for more is not giving up a 1st round pick and signing a 30 year old starting pitcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:42 PM) So you could honestly say the White Sox didn't need pitching last year? They had a pitching staff that darn well could have been competitive if they had anyone on the field worth a ****. And that's with Axelrod making 20 starts and Danks in the middle of a comeback. If their top guys stay healthy, I find this to be on paper a stronger, deeper staff than the one the White Sox ran out there last year. Axelrod has gone from 6th starter to 8th starter or so, and there's decent hope for Danks to improve as well. This team did not need pitching last year, it does not need pitching right now. It might well need pitching at the end of this year if someone gets hurt or there is a midseason trade...but we'll talk about that if and when such events happen. The 2013 White Sox did not need pitching. Hell, they traded away 2 starters and their rotation still sets up as deeper than last year. Had the 2013 White Sox remembered that they're supposed to catch that spherical white thing on occasion and hit it with a stick, they had the pitching to be a playoff team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:47 PM) Quit putting words in people's mouths. He didn't say they couldn't use more. He said it was pretty damn good last year. The answer for more is not giving up a 1st round pick and signing a 30 year old starting pitcher. I'll even say it. The White Sox didn't need pitching one bit last year. They could have competed with their rotation as it was had it been teamed with anyone remotely useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) You're conveniently ignoring their current future financial commitments which alow them to easily absorb a $39M contract if it bombs. You're conveniently ignoring the fact that that's $39m that cannot be spent on something else if he bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:45 PM) Nobody has brought up Axelrod except you. He was tried and proven to be awful. He's like the 9th or 10th starter I'd use, but he may be 6th in the event of a one start deal simply because the organization won't care about potentially losing him. He's Jeff Gray. -Andre Rienzo made 10 starts, pitched 56 innings last year and held his own. It wasn't pretty, but he has a solid if unspectacular track record in the minors. -Eric Surkamp has made 7 starts and pitched 26.2 innings. It was ugly, but he's the 7th option and has had success in the minors. I'm pretty sure you've supported giving Beckham another chance, and the Sox have given him 5 SEASONS to get his act in order. Why would you write off two starting pitchers because of a combined total of 82.2 innings? Are you coming off your stance that teams know what players are after 4 seasons? When I wrote Laumann said 2014 was a bad draft and HS heavy, therefore a HS kid taken with the 2nd round pick probably wouldn't be contributing to winning until 2020, you said BS. In 4 years teams know what they have. Therefore, we know what Rienzo and Surkamp are, and it isn't anything reliable. Gordon Beckham has talent that has come out in little bits. If he puts it together he can be a real special player. These 2 guys, at least Rienzo, is a dime a dozen guy. The Sox probably have several more like him at all levels. Edited February 5, 2014 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:45 PM) Rienzo to me is a reliever at best, but certainly not a guy that holds a permanent rotation spot. Surkamp admittedly hasn't been with the White Sox, but was tatooed when the Giants gave him a chance, and every team in the NL and the Astros could have had him for nothing but passed. Many teams have been wrong before, but that doesn't inspire me any confidence to say he has a really decent chance of being a good starting pitcher. He appears to be a classic AAAA guy. The Oakland A's starting 1B was a minor league free agent signing in the 2011-12 offseason and he spent the first part of the season of 2012 in the minors. Their starting catcher down the stretch last year was a waiver claim from Tampa Bay. Good players slip through waivers all the time for one reason or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:48 PM) Are you coming off your stance that teams know what players are after 4 seasons? When I wrote Laumann said 2014 was a bad draft and HS heavy, therefore a HS kid taken with the 2nd round pick probably wouldn't be contributing to winning until 2020, you said BS. In 4 years teams know what they have. Therefore, we know what Rienzo and Surkamp are, and it isn't anything reliable. Again, his minor league numbers simply don't say that. ERA in the 3's at every level, moving up fairly rapidly after rookie ball, ERA of 3.27 in AA which is often the biggest jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:45 PM) I'm pretty sure you've supported giving Beckham another chance, and the Sox have given him 5 SEASONS to get his act in order. Why would you write off two starting pitchers because of a combined total of 82.2 innings? How is adding a SP writing anyone off. If Reinzo and whoever else can pitch the Sox will figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:48 PM) Are you coming off your stance that teams know what players are after 4 seasons? When I wrote Laumann said 2014 was a bad draft and HS heavy, therefore a HS kid taken with the 2nd round pick probably wouldn't be contributing to winning until 2020, you said BS. In 4 years teams know what they have. Therefore, we know what Rienzo and Surkamp are, and it isn't anything reliable. 4 years of major league playing time? You bet your ass you have a good idea. Guys can still figure it out. 4 years of minor league time? You have a fair idea whether a guy is talented or not and is deserving of a chance. In 7 minor league seasons, Andre Rienzo has a 3.46 ERA, a BB/9 of 3.6 and a K/9 of 9.7. That's good. In 5 minor league seasons, Eric Surkamp has a 2.84 ERA, a BB/9 of 2.5, and a K/9 of 10. That's good. Why do you consistently say these guys do not have good minor league numbers? You must also then believe that Jose Quintana has bad major league numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:52 PM) How is adding a SP writing anyone off. If Reinzo and whoever else can pitch the Sox will figure it out. Pray tell, how will they figure it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:53 PM) 4 years of major league playing time? You bet your ass you have a good idea. Guys can still figure it out. 4 years of minor league time? You have a fair idea whether a guy is talented or not and is deserving of a chance. In 7 minor league seasons, Andre Rienzo has a 3.46 ERA, a BB/9 of 3.6 and a K/9 of 9.7. That's good. In 5 minor league seasons, Eric Surkamp has a 2.84 ERA, a BB/9 of 2.5, and a K/9 of 10. That's good. Why do you consistently say these guys do not have good minor league numbers? You must also then believe that Jose Quintana has bad major league numbers. You told me if guys aren't called up within 4 years of being drafted, they are release candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:59 PM) You told me if guys aren't called up within 4 years of being drafted, they are release candidates. Andre. Rienzo. Was. Not. Drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) Andre. Rienzo. Was. Not. Drafted. [ignored] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 12:12 PM) I read a scouting report on him. It said his delivery got all out of whack. He changed it last year, taking some MPHs off his pitches but increasing his command. He got rocked in April, but was lights out the rest of the season. I'm not saying UJ can't still be good, just that he'll never be what he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:51 PM) Again, his minor league numbers simply don't say that. ERA in the 3's at every level, moving up fairly rapidly after rookie ball, ERA of 3.27 in AA which is often the biggest jump. Near 4 in AAA. Doesn't really have an out pitch. Struggled with control. He is going to be 26 in a couple of months, he is a reliever/ spot starter for a good team if everything works out. Why do the White Sox need to employ players who should play for bad teams, just so we can see what we already really know? If you want the White Sox to be good, you should want them to employ good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:53 PM) Pray tell, how will they figure it out? i don't think they will go with just 11 pitchers the entire year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) Andre. Rienzo. Was. Not. Drafted. It has been 7 years since he signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:59 PM) You told me if guys aren't called up within 4 years of being drafted, they are release candidates. Show me where I said that. I've said guys can make it to the majors in 4 years and you have a pretty good idea of what you have and whether or not they will make the majors. That does not make them release candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:02 PM) Near 4 in AAA. Doesn't really have an out pitch. Struggled with control. He is going to be 26 in a couple of months, he is a reliever/ spot starter for a good team if everything works out. Why do the White Sox need to employ players who should play for bad teams, just so we can see what we already really know? If you want the White Sox to be good, you should want them to employ good players. Because Sox fans believe Sox management when they say they have no money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) [ignored] Another quality post from SS2k5. Do you ever post a thought about baseball in this section other than a copy and paste of Twitter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts