Kenny never wanted to rebuild, he's always hated young players &am

[Marty34]

Well, it gets said every year, but if guys like Hawkins, Thompson, Mitchell, Barnum and maybe a few others were to make serious strides this season, the evaluation of the Sox farm system changes considerably and is no longer a "punchline" as the article suggests, and many who argue that it's been an organizational weakness would have to re-evaluate their assumptions. In other words, it wouldn't take much.

 

I don't know. I think that a LOT to ask for from those you mentioned except for Barnum.

[The Ultimate Champion]

If anyone at all ever wanted a stocked farm system it was Kenny Williams. Kenny understands the value of flipping probable future busts for MLB pieces and he's done it a thousand times over. He's also kept some guys who haven't turned out, showing that he does also believe that there is a time for investing in what your farm system produces at the MLB level.

 

We're operating in a completely different era, thanks not to Rick Hahn who was always a part of this process, but thanks to the new CBA. It is nothing more than a coincidence that Hahn took over at a point where the Sox were ready to rebuild and that the new CBA put the Sox in position to be competitive in the amateur siginging process. If Kenny Williams worked for the Red Sox or Yankees he'd have done the same things they did, i.e. spend, spend, spend, take advantage of the system, even if for no other reason than to trade prospects for MLB value during times of need.

 

And I'm drunk. But Kenny Williams is the s***. He's happy about where we are & he's the f***in guy who was in charge the last time the Sox had a truly respectable system.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Also the fact that Kenny thinks so highly of Barnum makes me higher on Barnum as well. Kenny's a good talent evaluator, he's just kind of been absent from the process a lot during his GM years, focusing more on the AA/AAA/MLB guys probably than players entering the draft and in the lower minors. But now that he's in a role where he can focus more on the farm as a whole I think it's going to make the organization stronger, and I also hope we fire B8uddy Bell. Thanks for reading.

[The Ultimate Champion]

If only the Sox signed Ervin Santana to $120M/8 years, they'd never have to rebuild again until year 7 when they can trade him for prospects.

I would be willing to bet a good amount that whoever signs Santana at a bargain is going to be happier how that ends up going than the Yanks will be in Year 5 of the Tanaka contract.

[The Ginger Kid]

And I'm drunk.

That's not fair. Give me a minute to catch up.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I would be willing to bet a good amount that whoever signs Santana at a bargain is going to be happier how that ends up going than the Yanks will be in Year 5 of the Tanaka contract.

You know what? Based on the teams that were in on Tanaka...I'm going to say the opposite. I think the Yankees will be perfectly content with their investment.

[Dick Allen]

Here is where KW f***ed up. It had nothing to do with trading prospects, it had everything to do with the prospects he drafted:

WArR by draft class

Year. White Sox Avg. Per team

2001 10.4. 17.0

2002 5.1. 19.0

2003 8.4. 14.2

2004 14.2 12.8

2005. 2.3. 15.5

2006. 2.5. 10.5

2007. 2.0. 5.7

2008. 8.9. 4.3

2009. -0.7. 4.4

2010. 12.1. 1.6

2011. 0.1. 0.4

2012. 0.0. 0.1

2004 although the Sox had 7 picks in the first 89, the WAR is all Gio. 2008 is Beckham and Hudson, 2010 is Sale and Reed. Other than those years, the Sox entire draft has been below average.

Also Joe Crede in 2006 was the last home grown hitter to post a 3.0 WAR for the White Sox. Since then, they average team has had 7 of those players. No hitter from the White Sox 2001-7 draft classes has ever posted a 2 WAR season for the Sox.

 

KW's claim that he could have had a top farm system if he wanted is ludicrous, unless he was drafting bad players on purpose.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Dick Allen

[ScottyDo]

Here is where KW f***ed up. It had nothing to do with trading prospects, it had everything to do with the prospects he drafted:

WArR by draft class

Year. White Sox Avg. Per team

2001 10.4. 17.0

2002 5.1. 19.0

2003 8.4. 14.2

2004 14.2 12.8

2005. 2.3. 15.5

2006. 2.5. 10.5

2007. 2.0. 5.7

2008. 8.9. 4.3

2009. -0.7. 4.4

2010. 12.1. 1.6

2011. 0.1. 0.4

2012. 0.0. 0.1

2004 although the Sox had 7 picks in the first 89, the WAR is all Gio. 2008 is Beckham and Hudson, 2010 is Sale and Reed. Other than those years, the Sox entire draft has been below average.

Also Joe Crede in 2006 was the last home grown hitter to post a 3.0 WAR for the White Sox. Since then, they average team has had 7 of those players. No hitter from the White Sox 2001-7 draft classes has ever posted a 2 WAR season for the Sox.

 

KW's claim that he could have had a top farm system if he wanted is ludicrous, unless he was drafting bad players on purpose.

Is the White Sox column WAR with the White Sox or WAR in all of MLB for those players?

[Vance Law]

Is the White Sox column WAR with the White Sox or WAR in all of MLB for those players?

 

It appears to be: Year/ White Sox total WAR for players drafted/ MLB average total WAR per team for players drafted

[Dick Allen]

Is the White Sox column WAR with the White Sox or WAR in all of MLB for those players?

The IPad screwed up the columns. The first number is the collective WAR of the White Sox draft picks that year. The second is the average collective WAR per team that year.

[ScottyDo]

The IPad screwed up the columns. The first number is the collective WAR of the White Sox draft picks that year. The second is the average collective WAR per team that year.

But not necessarily WAR just with the White Sox, right? Because we traded tons of minor leaguers, so their WAR with the White Sox would be expected to be low. It's the WAR of Sox draftees throughout all of the teams they end up with that would really show how crappy KWs draft classes were (which they were).

[Dick Allen]

But not necessarily WAR just with the White Sox, right? Because we traded tons of minor leaguers, so their WAR with the White Sox would be expected to be low. It's the WAR of Sox draftees throughout all of the teams they end up with that would really show how crappy KWs draft classes were (which they were).

Right. It is every pick. The 14.2 in 2004 in fact is basically all Gio, and none of it is with the White Sox. His drafts were beyond awful.

 

But the trading of prospects as a knock was BS as well. Gio, Hudson for a short time, were really the only guys who where worth a damn. Overall, KW got more than he gave.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Dick Allen

[ScottyDo]

Right. It is every pick. The 14.2 in 2004 in fact is basically all Gio, and none of it is with the White Sox. His drafts were beyond awful.

Cool. Just checking.

 

Yeah, that's ugly. 2008 looks like it's mostly Dan Hudson, too, with a sprinkling of Gordon Beckham. Sigh.

[ptatc]

Here is where KW f***ed up. It had nothing to do with trading prospects, it had everything to do with the prospects he drafted:

WArR by draft class

Year. White Sox Avg. Per team

2001 10.4. 17.0

2002 5.1. 19.0

2003 8.4. 14.2

2004 14.2 12.8

2005. 2.3. 15.5

2006. 2.5. 10.5

2007. 2.0. 5.7

2008. 8.9. 4.3

2009. -0.7. 4.4

2010. 12.1. 1.6

2011. 0.1. 0.4

2012. 0.0. 0.1

2004 although the Sox had 7 picks in the first 89, the WAR is all Gio. 2008 is Beckham and Hudson, 2010 is Sale and Reed. Other than those years, the Sox entire draft has been below average.

Also Joe Crede in 2006 was the last home grown hitter to post a 3.0 WAR for the White Sox. Since then, they average team has had 7 of those players. No hitter from the White Sox 2001-7 draft classes has ever posted a 2 WAR season for the Sox.

 

KW's claim that he could have had a top farm system if he wanted is ludicrous, unless he was drafting bad players on purpose.

I think some of this is true. He elected to put most of his budget to the MLB team so he took chances on guys he could sign for a low price. So in essence I think he did draft if not bad at least lower talented guys on purpose. He knew he couldn't afford the top tier.

This is part of the reason I think the drafts will change as everyone will be limited in budget with slotting so the Sox will not be hurt as much.

[Balta1701]

I think some of this is true. He elected to put most of his budget to the MLB team so he took chances on guys he could sign for a low price. So in essence I think he did draft if not bad at least lower talented guys on purpose. He knew he couldn't afford the top tier.

This is part of the reason I think the drafts will change as everyone will be limited in budget with slotting so the Sox will not be hurt as much.

On top of that, I think they also specifically targeted guys based on "people that we'll be able to trade in the next year" like Broadway and McCullough even if they weren't the highest-rated guys on their board. I think they admitted that one too.

 

Then throw in a couple of talented busts...Fields and Anderson and Poreda, and you've got quite a mess.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Also the fact that Kenny thinks so highly of Barnum makes me higher on Barnum as well. Kenny's a good talent evaluator, he's just kind of been absent from the process a lot during his GM years, focusing more on the AA/AAA/MLB guys probably than players entering the draft and in the lower minors. But now that he's in a role where he can focus more on the farm as a whole I think it's going to make the organization stronger, and I also hope we fire B8uddy Bell. Thanks for reading.

 

Barnum's been hurt too, so who knows if we've ever even seen a healthy Barnum.

[southsider2k5]

Why do you always make it about the person posting.

 

How do you argue with someone who ignores both history and reality?

[Marty34]

I think some of this is true. He elected to put most of his budget to the MLB team so he took chances on guys he could sign for a low price. So in essence I think he did draft if not bad at least lower talented guys on purpose. He knew he couldn't afford the top tier.

This is part of the reason I think the drafts will change as everyone will be limited in budget with slotting so the Sox will not be hurt as much.

 

So at best we can say that Kenny executed an awful strategy just about to perfection as the major league club wallowed in mediocrity even though he tried propping it up at the expense of the farm system.

[southsider2k5]

If anyone at all ever wanted a stocked farm system it was Kenny Williams. Kenny understands the value of flipping probable future busts for MLB pieces and he's done it a thousand times over. He's also kept some guys who haven't turned out, showing that he does also believe that there is a time for investing in what your farm system produces at the MLB level.

 

We're operating in a completely different era, thanks not to Rick Hahn who was always a part of this process, but thanks to the new CBA. It is nothing more than a coincidence that Hahn took over at a point where the Sox were ready to rebuild and that the new CBA put the Sox in position to be competitive in the amateur siginging process. If Kenny Williams worked for the Red Sox or Yankees he'd have done the same things they did, i.e. spend, spend, spend, take advantage of the system, even if for no other reason than to trade prospects for MLB value during times of need.

 

And I'm drunk. But Kenny Williams is the s***. He's happy about where we are & he's the f***in guy who was in charge the last time the Sox had a truly respectable system.

 

For about the 2985763985 time, Kenny Williams wanted to spend the money on the major league team, and not spend money on prospects who might pan out in years.

 

I know why a few people take the quote completely out of context and turn it into something it isn't, but no matter how many times people repeat the same lie, it still isn't true.

[southsider2k5]

Here is where KW f***ed up. It had nothing to do with trading prospects, it had everything to do with the prospects he drafted:

WArR by draft class

Year. White Sox Avg. Per team

2001 10.4. 17.0

2002 5.1. 19.0

2003 8.4. 14.2

2004 14.2 12.8

2005. 2.3. 15.5

2006. 2.5. 10.5

2007. 2.0. 5.7

2008. 8.9. 4.3

2009. -0.7. 4.4

2010. 12.1. 1.6

2011. 0.1. 0.4

2012. 0.0. 0.1

2004 although the Sox had 7 picks in the first 89, the WAR is all Gio. 2008 is Beckham and Hudson, 2010 is Sale and Reed. Other than those years, the Sox entire draft has been below average.

Also Joe Crede in 2006 was the last home grown hitter to post a 3.0 WAR for the White Sox. Since then, they average team has had 7 of those players. No hitter from the White Sox 2001-7 draft classes has ever posted a 2 WAR season for the Sox.

 

KW's claim that he could have had a top farm system if he wanted is ludicrous, unless he was drafting bad players on purpose.

 

I'm sure you will ignore it again, but you damned well know that Williams went cheap on the drafts to put money into the major league team for quite a long time.

 

[Dick Allen]

I think some of this is true. He elected to put most of his budget to the MLB team so he took chances on guys he could sign for a low price. So in essence I think he did draft if not bad at least lower talented guys on purpose. He knew he couldn't afford the top tier.

This is part of the reason I think the drafts will change as everyone will be limited in budget with slotting so the Sox will not be hurt as much.

I don't agree, and again, this is just not first round. They had 3 consecutive years they didn't have a collective 3 career WAR their entire draft.

[southsider2k5]

I think some of this is true. He elected to put most of his budget to the MLB team so he took chances on guys he could sign for a low price. So in essence I think he did draft if not bad at least lower talented guys on purpose. He knew he couldn't afford the top tier.

This is part of the reason I think the drafts will change as everyone will be limited in budget with slotting so the Sox will not be hurt as much.

 

 

On top of that, I think they also specifically targeted guys based on "people that we'll be able to trade in the next year" like Broadway and McCullough even if they weren't the highest-rated guys on their board. I think they admitted that one too.

 

Then throw in a couple of talented busts...Fields and Anderson and Poreda, and you've got quite a mess.

 

Both also well stated points.

[ScottyDo]

I mean, no matter how you frame it, KW's tenure as GM resulted in an abysmal farm system. I get resource allocation, and I get that they focused on floor rather than ceiling, but I don't buy that he wasn't trying to amass talent in the minor leagues. As someone who looked at prospects like poker chips, why wouldn't you want to maximize the value of your chips? He did a bad job at that, as DA's graph shows pretty conclusively. Some of it might have been priority and resource allocation, but you can't write off how ugly it's been.

Edited February 9, 2014 by ScottyDo

[Dick Allen]

I'm sure you will ignore it again, but you damned well know that Williams went cheap on the drafts to put money into the major league team for quite a long time.

Says they guy who thinks KW can do no wrong. HIS DRAFTS WERE AWFUL, AND THE SOX PAID THE PRICE.

Jared Mitchell was $15,000 cheaper than Mike Trout. If you go back to that draft, there were a lot of scouts who thought the Sox would take Trout. That is one example. This isn't about being cheap. This was about poor selection. There were players who received smaller bonuses that guys like Broadway and have had decent careers. 3 consectutive years without a 7 collective WAR? If that is what he had in mind, if that was the plan, it was a dumb plan. No team that cannot spend $1 if they only have $.50 can not let that eventually get them.

 

Wes Whistler and Josh Fields and Tyler Lundsen got a lot more money than Dustin Pedroia. Donny Lucy taken a couple of picks before Dustin got $50k less.

 

Lanc Broadway signing bonus $1.57 million

Jacoby Ellsbury drafted later that round $1.4 million bonus. Matt Garza had eve a smaller bonus.

 

Every player draft after McCoullough who made the major leagues received a smaller bonus than the $1 million he was paid.

 

It wasn't about the money. Excuses are for failure. The draft this century with very few exceptions, has been a rather large failure.the White Sox knew it wasn't about money. It is why they fired Duane Schaefer in 2007. The players being selected were not good enough.it is improved some since that happened, but that improvement really is one player, Chris Sale.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[The Ultimate Champion]

DA makes some points here and it's hard to deny that.

 

However, a couple things:

 

1) As SS2K5 mentioned, the priorities (unfortunately) weren't always on drafting guys we'd plan on keeping.

 

2) There are some players out there, maybe like Trout, who could probably come through any situation/system, whereas other players need a lot of help and proper development. How much of this is "choice" over poor player development and/or "biting off more than you can chew" when it comes to trying to implement mechanical changes in hitters? I still always will point to Brian Anderson and the "we won't fix him 'til he fails" mantra which is a nice way of letting a very talented prospect coast his way through the minors and immediately out of baseball.

 

3) The overslot guys in other systems... the Sox didn't do too much of that. And I think, as I've said a bazillion times on this board, it had a lot more to do with JR's stance on the subject and relationship with Selig than anything else. JR is an owner's owner IMO. The new CBA changes things for teams like the Sox that try go by the book.

 

4) I'd like to see DA's list go back to when KW was scouting director and not GM. Not giving KW a free pass here, but I think he probably focused a lot more on the MLB team than anything else and entrusted others to handle the farm more. I say this because there has seemed to be major problems in oversight with this organization for years, encompassing really all levels, from long leashes to lack of due diligence by superiors, etc. Ozzie's tenure, Wilder, moves like Molina that happened out of nowhere RIGHT AFTER Paddy comes on which reminds me of Teahen (I'll be shocked if Buddy Bell wasn't a big part of that), etc. Juan Pierre and the dreadful slappy DH platoon was Ozzie holding GM duties to a certain extent, etc. I'm not sure much here has changed but I hope it has.

 

Kenny Williams is a high quality talent evaluator and I definitely DO believe that if his focus were entirely on the farm he could do a much better job of building it then he did. However, drafting/signing a raw prospect is just step 1 of a multi-stage process that has a lot more to do with instruction, organizational philosophies re: promotions, proactive strength/conditioning/health programs, etc. And no matter what you bring in in terms of talent, that talent needs to be monitored and so does the personnel in charge of those guys.

 

I posted an article a while back which like no one read apparently about a system the Rays and other teams use, but which apparently the Sox don't (or don't use much) where a pitcher's motion is captured on computer and saved. Red flags are pointed out if there are any & the tests can be replicated over time so that you can see how a pitcher's motion is changing. Now, let's say Danish ends up a total bust. Right now as we stand I think we can all agree he's a very interesting prospect & worth the draft slot & bonus, but if we aren't doing everything we can to monitor every step of this guy's MiLB career & keep him healthy then, should he fail, who do you blame? The Sox/Hahn for drafting the guy and making a "poor choice" or maybe other more stubborn elements of the organization which aren't so apparent on the surface?

 

I personally have no problem with guys who busted like Borchard, Fields, BA, Sweeney, Mitchell, and so on being taken where they were given the talent level. I think however that there's at least *some* chance, if not a decent or pretty good chance, that at least one of those guys would have turned out in a better system like Minny or Atlanta or something. Especially BA who I think we totally pissed away: if he had instructional/headcase issues then he should have been traded when he had value as a prospect, not shelved and later dumped for the ghost Mark Kotsay.

 

And also, I think we should just cut Dunn loose already, this guy is embarrassing the whole team.