Kenny never wanted to rebuild, he's always hated young players &am

[southsider2k5]

Says they guy who thinks KW can do no wrong. HIS DRAFTS WERE AWFUL, AND THE SOX PAID THE PRICE.

Jared Mitchell was $15,000 cheaper than Mike Trout. If you go back to that draft, there were a lot of scouts who thought the Sox would take Trout. That is one example. This isn't about being cheap. This was about poor selection. There were players who received smaller bonuses that guys like Broadway and have had decent careers. 3 consectutive years without a 7 collective WAR? If that is what he had in mind, if that was the plan, it was a dumb plan. No team that cannot spend $1 if they only have $.50 can not let that eventually get them.

 

Wes Whistler and Josh Fields and Tyler Lundsen got a lot more money than Dustin Pedroia. Donny Lucy taken a couple of picks before Dustin got $50k less.

 

Lanc Broadway signing bonus $1.57 million

Jacoby Ellsbury drafted later that round $1.4 million bonus. Matt Garza had eve a smaller bonus.

 

Every player draft after McCoullough who made the major leagues received a smaller bonus than the $1 million he was paid.

 

It wasn't about the money. Excuses are for failure. The draft this century with very few exceptions, has been a rather large failure.the White Sox knew it wasn't about money. It is why they fired Duane Schaefer in 2007. The players being selected were not good enough.it is improved some since that happened, but that improvement really is one player, Chris Sale.

 

These discussions all happened while these players were being drafted. Nitpicking an example here or there doesn't change the spending realities. Go look up the White Sox spending numbers for their drafts and get back to me as to where they compared to the rest of MLB.

 

Go ahead.

[Dick Allen]

These discussions all happened while these players were being drafted. Nitpicking an example here or there doesn't change the spending realities. Go look up the White Sox spending numbers for their drafts and get back to me as to where they compared to the rest of MLB.

 

Go ahead.

That is for the entire draft because they didn't spend $2-3 million on a 3rd round or later pick. They were usually right around slot I have examples of poor selections and proof there were plenty of other better players that they could have signed even cheaper.Please provide me a link of the White Sox saying they were just selecting guys to trade. There is a reason a 35 year employee lost his job in 2007, and your boy KW, didn't think it had to do with bonuses. I know you won't provide any links or proof of your position. You never do. The only thing I expect is some smart ass answer, but the proof is in the pudding. The White Sox minor league system was epically bad. No one wanted that.

[ptatc]

That is for the entire draft because they didn't spend $2-3 million on a 3rd round or later pick. They were usually right around slot I have examples of poor selections and proof there were plenty of other better players that they could have signed even cheaper.Please provide me a link of the White Sox saying they were just selecting guys to trade. There is a reason a 35 year employee lost his job in 2007, and your boy KW, didn't think it had to do with bonuses. I know you won't provide any links or proof of your position. You never do. The only thing I expect is some smart ass answer, but the proof is in the pudding. The White Sox minor league system was epically bad. No one wanted that.

This is true. I know we disagree but I think the draft was sacrificed at the expense of the MLB.

[ptatc]

So at best we can say that Kenny executed an awful strategy just about to perfection as the major league club wallowed in mediocrity even though he tried propping it up at the expense of the farm system.

I don't think it was an awful strategy. I think it was a good strategy to build on the enthusiasm of Sox fans after the World Series. For the most part the Sox were in contention and kept Sox fans interested. It is one of the most successful runs the Sox have ever had. I think the Sox were 3 or 4 in wins of all teams over that timeframe.

[southsider2k5]

That is for the entire draft because they didn't spend $2-3 million on a 3rd round or later pick. They were usually right around slot I have examples of poor selections and proof there were plenty of other better players that they could have signed even cheaper.Please provide me a link of the White Sox saying they were just selecting guys to trade. There is a reason a 35 year employee lost his job in 2007, and your boy KW, didn't think it had to do with bonuses. I know you won't provide any links or proof of your position. You never do. The only thing I expect is some smart ass answer, but the proof is in the pudding. The White Sox minor league system was epically bad. No one wanted that.

 

Not for one year. For years. Again, go ahead and look up their draft spending totals. Tell me where they ranked on minor league spending vs the rest of baseball during those years.

 

Just like always, when proven wrong, you change the subject, hence all of the single examples trying to act like the truth isn't the truth.

 

The Sox didn't spend on the draft, and instead put the money into the major league team.

 

Example? How about this article for one, which incidentally was the first google hit under "white sox draft spending"

 

SOX RANKED LAST IN DRAFT SPENDING FROM 2007-2011

 

http://taurussports.net/davids-blog/2014/1...t-spending.html

 

So while other teams invested in amateurs, the White Sox ranked last in the industry in draft spending from 2007-2011, averaging just more than $3.66 million per year, while simultaneously going dry internationally. And after winning the American League Central in 2008, the White Sox finished third in ‘09 and second in 2010, putting them at a crossroads under then-manager Ozzie Guillen and GM Kenny Williams.

 

“We made a conscious choice to go for it at that point, resigning Paul Konerko and A.J. Pierzynski, signing Adam Dunn, among other moves,” says Rick Hahn, who was Williams’ assistant GM before succeeding him in 2012 when Williams became team president. “We really committed to winning at the major league level, so that’s where the bulk of our resources were allocated.

 

Also the White Sox spent $34 million less on the draft than the Pirates from 2007 to 2011

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06...-baseball-draft

 

In the last five years, the White Sox spent only $18.3 million on the draft, the lowest total among the 30 teams and almost $34 million less than the Pirates, who have been the biggest spenders. That's the biggest reason that the Sox have a farm system that doesn't get much love from national analysts.

 

With Ricketts opening his wallet, the Cubs spent $9.2 million more than the White Sox in the 2011 draft, which is why Sox general manager Ken Williams has said the new collective bargaining agreement will be a good thing for the Sox.

 

Callis said he'll be watching to see if the White Sox opt to spend their full allotment in the draft, as they spent only $2.8 million last year.

 

"I'll believe the White Sox aren't going to be the cheapest team in the draft when I see it,'' Callis said.

 

graphic of draft spending in 2011 from fangraphs

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/visualizing...draft-spending/

 

 

From 2007 to 2011, the Sox spent $3 million less than any other team in baseball on the draft.

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/...and-51-million/

 

2008 saw the Sox spending only $300,000 in the international market, good for 22nd overall

 

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/38782-2008-...-international/

 

Now, what was that you were saying?

[southsider2k5]

This is true. I know we disagree but I think the draft was sacrificed at the expense of the MLB.

 

BUT THERE WAS THE ONE PICK IN THE ONE DRAFT!!!

 

[Dick Allen]

Not for one year. For years. Again, go ahead and look up their draft spending totals. Tell me where they ranked on minor league spending vs the rest of baseball during those years.

 

Just like always, when proven wrong, you change the subject, hence all of the single examples trying to act like the truth isn't the truth.

 

The Sox didn't spend on the draft, and instead put the money into the major league team.

 

Example? How about this article for one, which incidentally was the first google hit under "white sox draft spending"

 

SOX RANKED LAST IN DRAFT SPENDING FROM 2007-2011

 

http://taurussports.net/davids-blog/2014/1...t-spending.html

 

 

 

Also the White Sox spent $34 million less on the draft than the Pirates from 2007 to 2011

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06...-baseball-draft

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

graphic of draft spending in 2011 from fangraphs

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/visualizing...draft-spending/

 

 

From 2007 to 2011, the Sox spent $3 million less than any other team in baseball on the draft.

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/...and-51-million/

 

2008 saw the Sox spending only $300,000 in the international market, good for 22nd overall

 

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/38782-2008-...-international/

 

Now, what was that you were saying?

Once again nothing. They missed on a ton of players. I pointed that out. Go back to the drafts and look at the bonuses. Google it. Angelfire has a link for every year. Overall, they may have spent little, but that is because they signed guys for slot. The first few rounds, the spending wasn't that different from other teams. They actually had 4 picks before Dustin Pedroia and Clay Bucholtz. They gave Fields, Lumsten. Whisler, All more money than Boston gave future MVP Pedroia. was selected in the second round. Ellsbury and Garcia were pick in the first round after Broadway and signed for less money. Mike Trout was $15,000 more expensive than jared Mitchell. Adam Jones was available and signed for less than Brian Anderson. Matt Cain was picked just after Royce Ring. Dan Haren and David Wright together got less bonus money than the Sox paid Kris Honel. Don't let the facts stop you.they pick a couple of the alternitives, just a couple, a lot is different. But it was miss, miss, miss.

 

They scary thing is some people think these guys are going to pick a stud in the second round. History says probably not.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Once again nothing. They missed on a ton of players. I pointed that out. Go back to the drafts and look at the bonuses. Google it. Angelfire has a link for every year. Overall, they may have spent little, but that is because they signed guys for slot. The first few rounds, the spending wasn't that different from other teams. They actually had 4 picks before Dustin Pedroia and Clay Bucholtz. They gave Fields, Lumsten. Whisler, All more money than Boston gave future MVP Pedroia. was selected in the second round. Ellsbury and Garcia were pick in the first round after Broadway and signed for less money. Mike Trout was $15,000 more expensive than jared Mitchell. Adam Jones was available and signed for less than Brian Anderson. Matt Cain was picked just after Royce Ring. Dan Haren and David Wright together got less bonus money than the Sox paid Kris Honel. Don't let the facts stop you.they pick a couple of the alternitives, just a couple, a lot is different. But it was miss, miss, miss.

 

They scary thing is some people think these guys are going to pick a stud in the second round. History says probably not.

 

I'll give you one thing. Even when it is there in print, you never admit you are wrong. Even when the GM himself said it, it didn't matter, let alone all of the sources. deny, deny, deny.

[Dick Allen]

I'll give you one thing. Even when it is there in print, you never admit you are wrong. Even when the GM himself said it, it didn't matter, let alone all of the sources. deny, deny, deny.

I am not denying anything. Google mlb signing bonus. Click on the angelfire link. They have the bonuses for this decade. I have researched and shown you just some of the stars the Sox passed on to pay inferior players more money. Maybe you can show me the players they would have selected had they allocated more money. I am sure you will not.

 

I suppose if KW wanted a good farm system he would have drafted guys like Ellbury, Pedroia, Wright, Jones, Trout, Cain, but he didn't so we get Fields, Lucy, Ring, Honel, Broadway, for MORE money.My examples are guys that were drafted soon after they White Sox made a dud of a pick and were signed for slot money. Pretty straight forward. Besides, if you look at the guys who were paid way over slot, many didn't work out.

 

The guy thought Jeff Marquez was Jon Garland.

He thought Tyler Flowers was a stud.

He compared Jon Gilmore to Joe Crede.

Traded a pretty valuable trading piece for a bust of a prospect in Nestor Molina who he thought was starring in Winter Ball when he wasn't.

 

The reason the minor league system was bad was certainly not money.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Just glad KW isn't the GM. Hopefully Hahn continues rebuilding this organization over the next few years and we can be serious contenders year in year out.

[ptatc]

Just glad KW isn't the GM. Hopefully Hahn continues rebuilding this organization over the next few years and we can be serious contenders year in year out.

KW would have done the same thing this year. After the way last year went this was the year to blow it up so to speak. There is no telling if he would have made the same moves, although in his new position he is scouting alot more so he may have, but he would have made these changes and gone young. He has stated many times that he considered doing it in the past but didn't feel the time was right. It was right after last year.

[ptatc]

I am not denying anything. Google mlb signing bonus. Click on the angelfire link. They have the bonuses for this decade. I have researched and shown you just some of the stars the Sox passed on to pay inferior players more money. Maybe you can show me the players they would have selected had they allocated more money. I am sure you will not.

 

I suppose if KW wanted a good farm system he would have drafted guys like Ellbury, Pedroia, Wright, Jones, Trout, Cain, but he didn't so we get Fields, Lucy, Ring, Honel, Broadway, for MORE money.My examples are guys that were drafted soon after they White Sox made a dud of a pick and were signed for slot money. Pretty straight forward. Besides, if you look at the guys who were paid way over slot, many didn't work out.

 

The guy thought Jeff Marquez was Jon Garland.

He thought Tyler Flowers was a stud.

He compared Jon Gilmore to Joe Crede.

Traded a pretty valuable trading piece for a bust of a prospect in Nestor Molina who he thought was starring in Winter Ball when he wasn't.

 

The reason the minor league system was bad was certainly not money.

Since his background is scouting, it may be that as GM he relied on others to make the evaluations and leaned on thier opinions. It was well known that Wilder tutored him and he really looked up to him. Maybe now that KW is scouting more, they are making better draft decisions.

[Dick Allen]

Boston gave Dustin Pedroia a $575k bonus as a 2nd rd. pick in 2004. The Sox selected Fields, Whisler, Lumdsen,Gio, and Lucy ahead of him giving everyone but Lucy more money. Lucy got $525k. Pedroia's career WAR is only 29 less than the collective WAR of every White Sox draft pick since 2001.add Ellbury who was given $170k less than Lance Broadway a couple of spots lower in their draft,and the 2 of them add up to only 6 less WAR than the collective WAR of every player the White Sox have drafted since 2001. Thank God Sale dropped down to the Sox or it would have been worse.

 

KW said he could have had a good minor league system had he wanted. If you are implying it is just as simple as throwing more money at it, just look at the major league team. Throwing more money at it did not make them better. You have to select the correct players. I have given many examples of players who signed for slot who were much better players than the players selected by the Sox.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

On top of that, I think they also specifically targeted guys based on "people that we'll be able to trade in the next year" like Broadway and McCullough even if they weren't the highest-rated guys on their board. I think they admitted that one too.

 

Then throw in a couple of talented busts...Fields and Anderson and Poreda, and you've got quite a mess.

So let me get this straight, they picked worse players so they could trade them in the next year. Boy that makes a lot of sense. Do you have a link? I am guessing not. And who are all these players they were able to trade in the next year? Don't they have to keep them a year?

[Balta1701]

Boston gave Dustin Pedroia a $575k bonus as a 2nd rd. pick in 2004. The Sox selected Fields, Whisler, Lumdsen,Gio, and Lucy ahead of him giving everyone but Lucy more money. Lucy got $525k. Pedroia's career WAR is only 29 less than the collective WAR of every White Sox draft pick since 2001.add Ellbury who was given $170k less than Lance Broadway a couple of spots lower in their draft,and the 2 of them add up to only 6 less WAR than the collective WAR of every player the White Sox have drafted since 2001. Thank God Sale dropped down to the Sox or it would have been worse.

 

KW said he could have had a good minor league system had he wanted. If you are implying it is just as simple as throwing more money at it, just look at the major league team. Throwing more money at it did not make them better. You have to select the correct players. I have given many examples of players who signed for slot who were much better players than the players selected by the Sox.

Just so someone says it again...everyone does realize that doing exercises like this with the MLB Draft...going through and thinking "oh man if only we'd had person x"...is absolutely insane and will completely destroy your mental state, correct?

 

The number of examples of guys who step up in a totally unexpected way after the draft is staggering. The number of highly-touted, highly drafted guys who develop some flaw and then never reach their potential is even higher. If you re-did a draft even 6 months later it would look totally different. MVP's drop to the 2nd/3rd/15th/62nd round when there was such a thing. It happens all the time.

 

At some level...you can in fact come up with blame if you miss on guys consistently over a long period of time...but if you do the statistics there's a good chance you'd get the same results even if you did everything right. Less than 1% of the guys in the draft are all-stars and only a couple percent ever make the big leagues. If you propagate those stats through, just by random chance there will be some teams who have unusual amounts of success and some teams that go years and years with nothing but failure.

 

For a while there were ways to rig the system, with spending overseas and overslot, but even that was no guarantee, it was just slightly weighting the dice. Now the only way to weight the dice better is in scouting and development, for the most part.

[witesoxfan]

Also, this thread is ridiculous because Williams himself said that the two options prior to the 2011 season were rebuilding or going for it one more time, and it sort of sounded like he preferred rebuilding but Jerry wanted to go for it, so they went out and signed Dunn and Crain and whoever else and they tried to put it all together and the entire team flopped.

[Dick Allen]

Just so someone says it again...everyone does realize that doing exercises like this with the MLB Draft...going through and thinking "oh man if only we'd had person x"...is absolutely insane and will completely destroy your mental state, correct?

 

The number of examples of guys who step up in a totally unexpected way after the draft is staggering. The number of highly-touted, highly drafted guys who develop some flaw and then never reach their potential is even higher. If you re-did a draft even 6 months later it would look totally different. MVP's drop to the 2nd/3rd/15th/62nd round when there was such a thing. It happens all the time.

 

At some level...you can in fact come up with blame if you miss on guys consistently over a long period of time...but if you do the statistics there's a good chance you'd get the same results even if you did everything right. Less than 1% of the guys in the draft are all-stars and only a couple percent ever make the big leagues. If you propagate those stats through, just by random chance there will be some teams who have unusual amounts of success and some teams that go years and years with nothing but failure.

 

For a while there were ways to rig the system, with spending overseas and overslot, but even that was no guarantee, it was just slightly weighting the dice. Now the only way to weight the dice better is in scouting and development, for the most part.

It just shows the White Sox have consistently missed during this century. I am not putting in guys like Pujols, I am using guys selected right around where the Sox selected and guys who signed for basically slot money. They have been wrong so many times, and the quote that KW could have had a top farm system if he wanted still requires the White Sox to select the correct players, no matter how much they are willing to pay them. They, since 2001, have not show a constitent ability to do that.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

It just shows the White Sox have consistently missed during this century. I am not putting in guys like Pujols, I am using guys selected right around where the Sox selected and guys who signed for basically slot money. They have been wrong so many times, and the quote that KW could have had a top farm system if he wanted still requires the White Sox to select the correct players, no matter how much they are willing to pay them. They, since 2001, have not show a constitent ability to do that.

 

Show me one team that has done a consistent job of getting the right players. The Red Sox, maybe? But even they only have 4 players since 2000 with 5 or more WAR. The Cardinals have 2.

 

It's not easy to consistently pick players right. Not even the two best teams in the majors have done so.

[Y2Jimmy0]

There is no excuse for the way the White Sox went about the whole draft process prior to a couple years ago. Kenny Williams drafted some bad players but people are giving Reinsdorf a free pass here. Reinsdorf never wanted to pay over slot and he didn't commit the $$ ti the draft. What it boils down to is KW wanting athletic, high upside players but JR not wanting to spend $$ on those guys. The outcome of that strategy is Jared Mitchell, Keenyn Walker, Trayce Thompson types. JR's stubborn ways are to blame more than KW I think even though Kenny did the drafting. They were pretty hamstrung.

[Dick Allen]

Show me one team that has done a consistent job of getting the right players. The Red Sox, maybe? But even they only have 4 players since 2000 with 5 or more WAR. The Cardinals have 2.

 

It's not easy to consistently pick players right. Not even the two best teams in the majors have done so.

It isn't easy. It is why saying you could have a top farm system if you wanted a top farm system is ridiculous. Thank you for agreeing with me. But if you look at the totals of my chart, the White Sox are way below the average team in drafting WAR. As I mentioned, they haven't had a homegrown hitter but up a 3 WAR since Joe Crede in 2006. Since 2006, the average team has had 7 seasons of homegrown hitters putting up a 3 war. They also didn't have a 2 WAR hitter for them in any draft from 2001-2007.

 

You are saying "show me one team", if everyone is terrible at it, why from 2001-2007 did the White Sox total WAR drafted come out to less than half league average? The league average was 94.7. The White Sox drafted 44.6. The only team worse at drafting players were the Brewers.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[ScottyDo]

It isn't easy. It is why saying you could have a top farm system if you wanted a top farm system is ridiculous. Thank you for agreeing with me. But if you look at the totals of my chart, the White Sox are way below the average team in drafting WAR. As I mentioned, they haven't had a homegrown hitter but up a 3 WAR since Joe Crede in 2006. Since 2006, the average team has had 7 seasons of homegrown hitters putting up a 3 war. They also didn't have a 2 WAR hitter for them in any draft from 2001-2007.

 

You are saying "show me one team", if everyone is terrible at it, why from 2001-2007 did the White Sox total WAR drafted come out to less than half league average? The league average was 94.7. The White Sox drafted 44.6.

Just curious, where are you getting your numbers? I've done a lot of googling and come up with nothing useful.

Edited February 10, 2014 by ScottyDo

[ScottyDo]

It isn't easy. It is why saying you could have a top farm system if you wanted a top farm system is ridiculous. Thank you for agreeing with me. But if you look at the totals of my chart, the White Sox are way below the average team in drafting WAR. As I mentioned, they haven't had a homegrown hitter but up a 3 WAR since Joe Crede in 2006. Since 2006, the average team has had 7 seasons of homegrown hitters putting up a 3 war. They also didn't have a 2 WAR hitter for them in any draft from 2001-2007.

 

You are saying "show me one team", if everyone is terrible at it, why from 2001-2007 did the White Sox total WAR drafted come out to less than half league average? The league average was 94.7. The White Sox drafted 44.6. The only team worse at drafting players were the Brewers.

I understand the arguments others are putting forth, but how can you argue with SECOND-TO-WORST? Like, come on -- if you think the second-worst drafting team over a decade was in that position due mostly to chance, then you might as well say the entire thing is a coin toss and that no difference exists between teams. I don't buy that.

[witesoxfan]

It isn't easy. It is why saying you could have a top farm system if you wanted a top farm system is ridiculous. Thank you for agreeing with me. But if you look at the totals of my chart, the White Sox are way below the average team in drafting WAR. As I mentioned, they haven't had a homegrown hitter but up a 3 WAR since Joe Crede in 2006. Since 2006, the average team has had 7 seasons of homegrown hitters putting up a 3 war. They also didn't have a 2 WAR hitter for them in any draft from 2001-2007.

 

You are saying "show me one team", if everyone is terrible at it, why from 2001-2007 did the White Sox total WAR drafted come out to less than half league average? The league average was 94.7. The White Sox drafted 44.6.

 

But then you said you weren't talking about the team itself but instead the top picks. I do agree that Williams was exaggerating to some extent, but Reinsdorf really did hamstring him in those situations because he was unwilling to pay overslot for players. A ton of people on the board wanted the Sox to draft Rick Porcello, but because he was a Boras client and was going to go overslot, we knew there was a 0% chance of it happening. Then they took Aaron Poreda - who the f is this? - and the Tigers took Porcello shortly there after.

 

Williams saying "we could have a good minor league system if we wanted" is a little bit of exaggeration, but he also did allocate most of that money to the MLB team. It would have been better had they spent $90 million on the MLB team instead. In hindsight, they probably should have, but they are trying to fix that problem now. Hopefully in 2-4 years, they have a top 10 minor league system and are producing talent all over the place.

[Dick Allen]

Just curious, where are you getting your numbers? I've done a lot of googling and come up with nothing useful.

It is in my Baseball Prospectus.

[Dick Allen]

But then you said you weren't talking about the team itself but instead the top picks. I do agree that Williams was exaggerating to some extent, but Reinsdorf really did hamstring him in those situations because he was unwilling to pay overslot for players. A ton of people on the board wanted the Sox to draft Rick Porcello, but because he was a Boras client and was going to go overslot, we knew there was a 0% chance of it happening. Then they took Aaron Poreda - who the f is this? - and the Tigers took Porcello shortly there after.

 

Williams saying "we could have a good minor league system if we wanted" is a little bit of exaggeration, but he also did allocate most of that money to the MLB team. It would have been better had they spent $90 million on the MLB team instead. In hindsight, they probably should have, but they are trying to fix that problem now. Hopefully in 2-4 years, they have a top 10 minor league system and are producing talent all over the place.

I am talking entire draft.

I don't think Porcello vs. Poreda is the difference between good and bad the past 13 seasons, but it is one example of paying over slot for a better player. Porcello may be really good one day, Poreda never will be, but if you recall, the White Sox were really high on him. He was the first poster child for the not taking the "safe" pick. He made his debut in Milwaukee. I was pretty excited to see him pitch. That didn't last long.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen