witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:56 AM) I am talking entire draft. I don't think Porcello vs. Poreda is the difference between good and bad the past 13 seasons, but it is one example of paying over slot for a better player. Porcello may be really good one day, Poreda never will be, but if you recall, the White Sox were really high on him. He was the first poster child for the not taking the "safe" pick. He made his debut in Milwaukee. I was pretty excited to see him pitch. That didn't last long. I agree with pretty much all of this. I've never been one to get into rankings either, but the Sox were incredibly poor. There are a number of different reasons for the poor minor league system though too, and I think it's hard to say one of them is more important than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:58 PM) I agree with pretty much all of this. I've never been one to get into rankings either, but the Sox were incredibly poor. There are a number of different reasons for the poor minor league system though too, and I think it's hard to say one of them is more important than the other. I mean...no matter what, KW was the captain of the ship that yielded this result. Say what you want about our ranking indicating that he was bad, but there definitely is NO evidence that he could have been great at building up a farm system. What would anyone point to that was excellent about the Sox' drafting under his management? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 07:59 PM) I am not denying anything. Google mlb signing bonus. Click on the angelfire link. They have the bonuses for this decade. I have researched and shown you just some of the stars the Sox passed on to pay inferior players more money. Maybe you can show me the players they would have selected had they allocated more money. I am sure you will not. I suppose if KW wanted a good farm system he would have drafted guys like Ellbury, Pedroia, Wright, Jones, Trout, Cain, but he didn't so we get Fields, Lucy, Ring, Honel, Broadway, for MORE money.My examples are guys that were drafted soon after they White Sox made a dud of a pick and were signed for slot money. Pretty straight forward. Besides, if you look at the guys who were paid way over slot, many didn't work out. The guy thought Jeff Marquez was Jon Garland. He thought Tyler Flowers was a stud. He compared Jon Gilmore to Joe Crede. Traded a pretty valuable trading piece for a bust of a prospect in Nestor Molina who he thought was starring in Winter Ball when he wasn't. The reason the minor league system was bad was certainly not money. Exactly what I stated from the beginning is 100% true. The White Sox spent 15% less than any other team in all of baseball from 2007 to 2011. They spent about 1/3 of what the top team spent. Both Hahn and Williams have clearly stated that they took money from development and put it into the major league team. Spin all you like, the facts are the facts. They flat our sacrificed the minors for the majors. If you want to stay in denial, by all means, do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:09 PM) Exactly what I stated from the beginning is 100% true. The White Sox spent 15% less than any other team in all of baseball from 2007 to 2011. They spent about 1/3 of what the top team spent. Both Hahn and Williams have clearly stated that they took money from development and put it into the major league team. Spin all you like, the facts are the facts. They flat our sacrificed the minors for the majors. If you want to stay in denial, by all means, do so. I'd be interested to see the relationship between your $$ rankings and DA's results rankings. If there is, indeed, an effect like you suggest, you'd probably see it on a scatter plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:06 AM) I mean...no matter what, KW was the captain of the ship that yielded this result. Say what you want about our ranking indicating that he was bad, but there definitely is NO evidence that he could have been great at building up a farm system. What would anyone point to that was excellent about the Sox' drafting under his management? I don't think I've disagreed with any of this, but he was running the minor league system when it was the #1 ranked minor league system in the game in 2000. It fell apart rather quickly, but the guy knows talent. He did commit a ton of his resources to the MLB team - hence the least amount of spending - and Reinsdorf was pretty much unwilling in general to go overslot. Those are probably your two biggest reasons for the lack of minor league system, with "Williams trades prospects" 3rd on that lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:09 AM) Exactly what I stated from the beginning is 100% true. The White Sox spent 15% less than any other team in all of baseball from 2007 to 2011. They spent about 1/3 of what the top team spent. Both Hahn and Williams have clearly stated that they took money from development and put it into the major league team. Spin all you like, the facts are the facts. They flat our sacrificed the minors for the majors. If you want to stay in denial, by all means, do so. Wasn't the argument always draft position? Now it is spending. The fact is, if they are picking top 5 every year, they would have spent more. When they did spend, over $5 million for Borchard, the biggest bonus ever at the time I believe, and almost $2.5 million for Josh Fields, those guys sucked. Money wasn't the cure all. THEY NEEDED TO SELECT BETTER PLAYERS. One last time, I gave examples of guys who were available for slot money and were selected around the White Sox picks. There has been one example of going over slot, Porcello vs. Poreda which would have netted a better player. The White Sox paid slot. Current stars signed for slot. The White Sox from 2001-2007 had less than half the cumulative WAR of the average MLB team. KW threw money at the Major League team? Did it make the team better? Why would it have automatically made the minor league system better? And we haven't even mentioned the guy KW actually gave a promotion, and then wound up in jail. Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I will say that things appear to have gotten much better when he overturned the scouting personnel (which is a knock against the idea that our draft success was random), I just don't know why he had to wait so long to make the change when sustained failure was painfully apparent to everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 11:41 PM) Boston gave Dustin Pedroia a $575k bonus as a 2nd rd. pick in 2004. The Sox selected Fields, Whisler, Lumdsen,Gio, and Lucy ahead of him giving everyone but Lucy more money. Lucy got $525k. Pedroia's career WAR is only 29 less than the collective WAR of every White Sox draft pick since 2001.add Ellbury who was given $170k less than Lance Broadway a couple of spots lower in their draft,and the 2 of them add up to only 6 less WAR than the collective WAR of every player the White Sox have drafted since 2001. Thank God Sale dropped down to the Sox or it would have been worse. KW said he could have had a good minor league system had he wanted. If you are implying it is just as simple as throwing more money at it, just look at the major league team. Throwing more money at it did not make them better. You have to select the correct players. I have given many examples of players who signed for slot who were much better players than the players selected by the Sox. IMO this is a pretty good mix of your argument & mine. Whisler was definitely a poor choice. Lucy OTOH had defensive ability and had that bat come along at all he could have been at least a back-up. He dealt with lots of injuries as well. Lumsden, Gio, and Fields all had ability but only Gio turned out, and it happened outside of the Sox organization (although I trust us with pitchers anyway & would have expected the same here). Maybe if Fields is traded to another team as an A-baller he becomes Mark Reynolds for about 3-4 years instead of never playing a full season in MLB as a starter. Also when you look at that Ellsbury draft they had a bunch of supplemental picks. The Ellsbury pick came from the Angels for Orlando Cabrera, the Craig Hansen pick (bust) came from the Dodgers for Derek Lowe, Clay Buccholz came from the Mets for Pedro, Jed Lowrie also came from Orlando Cabrera, Michael Bowden also came from Derek Lowe - and that was just the first round. The Red Sox also gave up Colby Rasmus & some McCormick guy to the Cards for signing Renteria. And in the second round they gave up a late 2nd but picked up #57 overall out of Pedro. They had 6 picks in the top 57 of a stacked draft class and took a ton of value out of that, kudos to them, but that's not an everyday occurrence and I think it's better to compare the Sox with other teams like the Twins for instance who generally drafted around the same spots and spent pretty similarly, and operated under similar circumstances as the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Another determinant of draftee success is minor league instruction. Anyone gonna argue we've been any good at that? Pitchers, perhaps. Definitely not hitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:30 AM) Another determinant of draftee success is minor league instruction. Anyone gonna argue we've been any good at that? Pitchers, perhaps. Definitely not hitters. No, it's been absolutely brutal. Guys come up and look absolutely clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:23 AM) I will say that things appear to have gotten much better when he overturned the scouting personnel (which is a knock against the idea that our draft success was random), I just don't know why he had to wait so long to make the change when sustained failure was painfully apparent to everyone else. It's that same general glaring trust/oversight problem IMO, I mean, how is it that like 70+% of your INTL budget each year is used up on guys that aren't worth half that amount? At some point don't you want to go down there and look at these kids for yourself? Nah, just the people in charge run the thing, they know what they're doing, they always have our best interests in mind. But that's not just Kenny, it's really the entire organization from the top down with JR IMO, and it may still be going on. Why was Buddy Bell promoted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:33 PM) It's that same general glaring trust/oversight problem IMO, I mean, how is it that like 70+% of your INTL budget each year is used up on guys that aren't worth half that amount? At some point don't you want to go down there and look at these kids for yourself? Nah, just the people in charge run the thing, they know what they're doing, they always have our best interests in mind. But that's not just Kenny, it's really the entire organization from the top down with JR IMO, and it may still be going on. Why was Buddy Bell promoted? Yeah but he was the General Manager. Just like any other sort of manager, one of his main responsibilities is holding his team accountable for performance and correcting performance as need be. If he doesn't performance manage the INTL talent team, it's ultimately on him. That's his job. JR's job is to make sure KW does HIS job...so if you're arguing that it's a system-wide issue, you're really saying that KW didn't get enough pressure from above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:30 AM) Another determinant of draftee success is minor league instruction. Anyone gonna argue we've been any good at that? Pitchers, perhaps. Definitely not hitters. To me, that is a huge question. Maybe the profile the hitters they draft are all pretty much the same, because most seem to have the same problems. When I go home I will get the term BP used, it's pretty funny, but there are so many White Sox farmhands that have making contact as a huge weakness, it makes you wonder about instruction and development. Are they picking the wrong players, or are they not developing them. Reading BP, you get the sense if they had an Olympic games, White Sox minor leaguers would get a lot of medals with their speed and strength. Playing baseball seems an entirely different matter. Maybe the new hitting coach and what they plan with an organizational offensive philosophy will help. We know it won't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 BTW I think I'm going to run down to the thrift store and buy me a nice 1978 style brown suit, have it dry cleaned, then show up to ST with a corncob pipe in my mouth and approach the Sox brass introducing myself as "a good baseball man" and just overwhelm them with old crusty baseball cliches until they decide to hire me. Every time some s***ty OF swings through a 93mph fastball I'll hit them with something that makes them feel optimistic, eventually they won't have any other option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:37 AM) Yeah but he was the General Manager. Just like any other sort of manager, one of his main responsibilities is holding his team accountable for performance and correcting performance as need be. If he doesn't performance manage the INTL talent team, it's ultimately on him. That's his job. JR's job is to make sure KW does HIS job...so if you're arguing that it's a system-wide issue, you're really saying that KW didn't get enough pressure from above. Yes & I agree. However there's a lot involved in that job & you *do* need to delegate a ton. What you don't need to do is forget about the reviews, forget about checking in on the people you're in charge of, etc. And I definitely see this as having come from JR who famously let this thing become the Ozzie Show for a good couple years when the proper decision was one KW was already dying to make but couldn't. So really it's an organization thing, which is much worse than one guy, but hopefully things have changed a lot. Edited February 10, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:22 AM) Wasn't the argument always draft position? Now it is spending. The fact is, if they are picking top 5 every year, they would have spent more. When they did spend, over $5 million for Borchard, the biggest bonus ever at the time I believe, and almost $2.5 million for Josh Fields, those guys sucked. Money wasn't the cure all. THEY NEEDED TO SELECT BETTER PLAYERS. One last time, I gave examples of guys who were available for slot money and were selected around the White Sox picks. There has been one example of going over slot, Porcello vs. Poreda which would have netted a better player. The White Sox paid slot. Current stars signed for slot. The White Sox from 2001-2007 had less than half the cumulative WAR of the average MLB team. KW threw money at the Major League team? Did it make the team better? Why would it have automatically made the minor league system better? And we haven't even mentioned the guy KW actually gave a promotion, and then wound up in jail. No matter how you spin it or change the argument, the point has been made over and over again. The Sox spent less than anyone else on the minor league system than anyone else in baseball, and they did it on purpose, to funnel money to the major league club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:45 AM) No matter how you spin it or change the argument, the point has been made over and over again. The Sox spent less than anyone else on the minor league system than anyone else in baseball, and they did it on purpose, to funnel money to the major league club. How does that prove that KW could have had a top minor league system if he wanted one? His drafts were epically bad. He passed on players who became really good players and paid bad ones the same or more money. Ignore it if you want. I don't care. Everyone else sees it. For the last time, no matter how much money you spend, you still have to spend it on the correct players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:52 AM) How does that prove that KW could have had a top minor league system if he wanted one? His drafts were epically bad. He passed on players who became really good players and paid bad ones the same or more money. Ignore it if you want. I don't care. Everyone else sees it. For the last time, no matter how much money you spend, you still have to spend it on the correct players. This is a problem for every team in baseball. Ten teams passes on Chris Sale, 24 passed on Mike Trout, no one has a crystal ball. Sure, you could go back and cherry pick players that we should have signed at the time that would fit in the budget, but that is not a sincere exercise. There has also been a lot of mechanics that go into the draft that dictate when a player is drafted, such as pre-draft deals where a player tells a team like the White Sox he will sign for $1.1M, but works out a deal with the Red Sox to sign for $575K, in an effort to pick his destination. This is especially true of HS players, which is why the Sox drafted very few of them. The new draft slotting in the CBA has corrected many of those flaws and made the draft a more level playing field, which is part of the reason the Sox have started having success in the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:52 AM) How does that prove that KW could have had a top minor league system if he wanted one? His drafts were epically bad. He passed on players who became really good players and paid bad ones the same or more money. Ignore it if you want. I don't care. Everyone else sees it. For the last time, no matter how much money you spend, you still have to spend it on the correct players. You are honestly saying that money has nothing to do with a farm system? Speaking of ignoring... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 11:56 AM) You are honestly saying that money has nothing to do with a farm system? Speaking of ignoring... You are the one doing all of the ignoring. I have given examples of players selected near the Sox selections that were much better players than the ones the White Sox selected, and they didn't cost more money. We all know KW has thrown money at things on the major league level and it didn't make the team better. You have provided exactly zero examples of if the Sox spent more they automatically draft better. I showed you a couple of times they did spend, and it didn't work out. If spending money was a guarantee that the White Sox would be able to select the best player on the board, I just wonder when all it cost was what they were willing to pay, why they didn't choose a better player? Just answer that question. Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 DA has made some good points here...just because you're bargain shopping or dumpster diving doesn't mean there are no deals out there to be had. It doesn't put the amount of blame on them, that a team who had similarly bad results and spent more money might deserve, but it doesn't magically remove all blame just because they didn't prioritize that part of the organization as much as other clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:05 PM) You are the one doing all of the ignoring. I have given examples of players selected near the Sox selections that were much better players than the ones the White Sox selected, and they didn't cost more money. We all know KW has thrown money at things on the major league level and it didn't make the team better. You have provided exactly zero examples of if the Sox spent more they automatically draft better. I showed you a couple of times they did spend, and it didn't work out. If spending money was a guarantee that the White Sox would be able to select the best player on the board, I just wonder when all it cost was what they were willing to pay, why they didn't choose a better player? Just answer that question. You have changed the goalposts about 50 times in the scope of this discussion to make some point that actually sort of works for you. You completely ignored anything that didn't work, including exactly what the former and current GM had to say on this subject, which is better than a couple of anecdotal pieces of made up "evidence" that don't even relate to the original discussion. There are also plenty of times that teams went overslot drafting after the Sox to pick higher ceiling-ed players, which even casts doubt on your latest non sequitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:14 PM) You have changed the goalposts about 50 times in the scope of this discussion to make some point that actually sort of works for you. You completely ignored anything that didn't work, including exactly what the former and current GM had to say on this subject, which is better than a couple of anecdotal pieces of made up "evidence" that don't even relate to the original discussion. There are also plenty of times that teams went overslot drafting after the Sox to pick higher ceiling-ed players, which even casts doubt on your latest non sequitor. Name these over slot guys that the White Sox refusal to sign made their collective draft WAR less than half the average major league team. You always ask for examples and say the poster won't provide them. Here is a chance to practice what you preach. I haven't moved the goalposts at all. You are ignoring the White Sox passed on several players who were quickly snatched up and who became stars when they picked their busts. And for some reason think if they had spent more money, that would have automatically made them pick the best players when the evidence shows that to be unrealistic. Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:26 PM) Name these over slot guys that the White Sox refusal to sign made their collective draft WAR less than half the average major league team. You always ask for examples and say the poster won't provide them. Here is a chance to practice what you preach. I haven't moved the goalposts at all. You are ignoring the White Sox passed on several players who were quickly snatched up and who became stars when they picked their busts. And for some reason think if they had spent more money, that would have automatically made them pick the best players when the evidence shows that to be unrealistic. So it is just coincidence that the highest spending teams from 2007 to 2011 have the best farm systems today? lol, ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 8, 2014 -> 12:26 PM) I disagree. Ithink the writing wason the wall that the 2013 team was at the end of a pretty good run. I think KW would have done the same thing. You cannot winwith a bunch of rookies. If you are trying to win you need mostly vets with only one or two rookies. This is what the Sox did for years until the time ran out. Now is the time to take losses and build the core again for a run of success. KW was in charge of the minors beforehe was GM. I don't think he has a problem with them he just knows you can't win with all rookies. Kenny overvalues his major league acquisitions. He has never done well cashing out, and I can see him risking a decent return to wait til winter. Hahn understood the need to move fast. And he was smart playing off Boston's and Texas' desperation after biogenesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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