Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:44 PM) So it is just coincidence that the highest spending teams from 2007 to 2011 have the best farm systems today? lol, ok. You do realize you become high spending when you pick in the top 5 every year don't you? There was one team worse than the White Sox. One. And of course when asked to name a few over slot guys that would have propelled the White Sox to at least average, crickets. Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:45 PM) Kenny overvalues his major league acquisitions. He has never done well cashing out, and I can see him risking a decent return to wait til winter. Hahn understood the need to move fast. And he was smart playing off Boston's and Texas' desperation after biogenesis LOL Kenny committed rape in the second Freddy deal and in the McCarthy deal. Hahn held onto Gavin Floyd until he got hurt & lost all value. And the Peavy return was quality for what Peavy was but this wasn't the "haul" type on paper, far from it. And Texas? Really? Rios was a salary dump for Abreu money. They had a dollar and only took fifty cents back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:48 PM) You do realize you become high spending when you pick in the top 5 every year don't you? There was one team worse than the White Sox. One. If I follow that logic, does it mean you become low spending when you never pick in the top 5 and as a consequence one would naturally expect their draft performance to be poor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:48 PM) You do realize you become high spending when you pick in the top 5 every year don't you? There was one team worse than the White Sox. One. And of course when asked to name a few over slot guys that would have propelled the White Sox to at least average, crickets. Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees were in the top five every year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 DA offers pretty compelling examples of our horrendous evaluation of prospects over the years. I did't realize it was that bad. Hopefully, that changes. Money can't overcome poor evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Amusing as it is to read people same it was about the money, or about the development, or about the scouting, and picking ONLY ONE (LOL)... it was all the above. But I think it is worth pointing out that the organization and the system are not static. Staff has changed a lot the last few years, phiosophy in the draft has changed, they've signed 5 or 6 overslot guys the past 2-3 drafts, they've rebuilt the LatAm operations and are spending multiples of where they were a few years ago there, and Hahn has done a pretty great job this offseason (which started in July) of acquiring young, MLB-ready talent while losing next to nothing they'll need in the long haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 When KW said they could have a top farm system if they wanted, wasn't he implying that would be the case if they traded everybody of value from from the major league team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 In his interview on the Score's website Kenny says that starting with the Sale draft and on he's been getting out and doing a lot more scouting whereas in the past he had been focused on the other things & hadn't gotten out much. He personally scouted Zapata, personally sought out more info on Tanaka (whatever that means), personally scouted Abreu, and one would assume if his statements are true that he had a lot of input on the early selections in our last 4 drafts and our most recent high $$$ INTL signings. Also he probably had a lot of input on Davidson & Eaton. So if he says he could have had a better system if he wanted, maybe he means that if he focused more on the draft and spent more in those areas on players he personally scouted then the results would have been better. And I would agree with that. So maybe let's judge him on his scouting efforts during the period of time he's been back in that role? If the argument is that he should have been more involved in the prior drafts than he was and/or should have had more or better people running things, or should have spent more $$$ on amateurs, then I'd have to agree with it. But Kenny making poor draft choices? If he's not really involved there how can they be "his" choices? They're just moves he signed off on, and that's more about trusting others too much and not having the proper checks and balances in place. You have to draw a line there logically because if Kenny is responsible for picks like Whisler then the last place he needs to be is in a scouting role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:52 PM) Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees were in the top five every year? Examples of players the Sox didn't get because they didn't want to spend the money please. Not all over slot guys panned out either. Give me some names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:18 PM) Examples of players the Sox didn't get because they didn't want to spend the money please. Not all over slot guys panned out either. Give me some names. /didn'tworkswitchtopics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:18 PM) /didn'tworkswitchtopics Exactly the game you are playing. The Yankees system sucks as well BTW. I have provided names. You have not. Why are you trying to change the subject? If you are going to say didn't work switch topics, why can't you provide specific examples as I have done? Seems between the 2 of us, there is only one playing the game you are accusing me of playing, and it isn't me. It is quite amazing asking you to answer the exact same question you refuse to answer is considered changing the topic in your world. LMAO. Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:04 PM) DA offers pretty compelling examples of our horrendous evaluation of prospects over the years. I did't realize it was that bad. Hopefully, that changes. Money can't overcome poor evaluation. When you look at our bust rate with high picks over the years it's horrendous period. Kenny built a top-farm system as its director & then went out and traded pieces of it for value. Which is good because the best player IIRC he gave up out of that bunch was Kip Wells. Had we kept all those guys things would have really gotten bad. I think the primary issues though are just about s***ty developmental philosophies which make everything look so bad. No matter how much people want to hate, we *did* take a ton of very talented players in the early rounds of the draft over the last couple decades, and we have very little to show for it. Hearing Greg Walker & Hawk in the booth (and I'm sure others too) repeat the line about how you can't ask a player to change something until he fails and proves he needs it is the most ridiculous line of thinking you could ever apply to any process that is called "developmental." It's like, "Let's let the kid keep swearing and throwing things and bullying other kids until someone finally kicks his ass on the playground, then we'll get him the discipline he needs so that he'll grow up to be a proper adult." I mean just apply that philosophy to anything and it sounds horrendously dense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:21 PM) Exactly the game you are playing. The Yankees system sucks as well BTW. I have provided names. You have not. Why are you trying to change the subject? If you are going to say didn't work switch topics, why can't you provide specific examples as I have done? Seems between the 2 of us, there is only one playing the game you are accusing me of playing, and it isn't me. It is quite amazing asking you to answer the exact same question you refuse to answer is considered changing the topic in your world. You've been changing the subject to repackage your failed argument for days now. For the last time, The Sox were last in draft spending intentionally. They purposefully spend less money so as to redirect those funds to the major league team. No matter what you try to change the "point" to, and NONE of the non sequitors you keep trying to deflect to change those basic facts. It doesn't matter what new angles you come up with, or what words to bold in your statements. But feel free to keep trying to turn it into something else again, even after having the last theory proven wrong about draft spending happening because of draft position, even though the Red Sox and Yankees blew that one up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:49 PM) LOL Kenny committed rape in the second Freddy deal and in the McCarthy deal. Hahn held onto Gavin Floyd until he got hurt & lost all value. And the Peavy return was quality for what Peavy was but this wasn't the "haul" type on paper, far from it. And Texas? Really? Rios was a salary dump for Abreu money. They had a dollar and only took fifty cents back. Gavin Floyd made 5 starts for the White Sox while Rick Hahn was the GM. Not sure why you're using that against him. He wouldn't have gotten a real big return for him anyways. I was also perfectly fine with them just giving Rios up, so getting back a guy like Garcia for him was a win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:31 PM) You've been changing the subject to repackage your failed argument for days now. For the last time, The Sox were last in draft spending intentionally. They purposefully spend less money so as to redirect those funds to the major league team. No matter what you try to change the "point" to, and NONE of the non sequitors you keep trying to deflect to change those basic facts. It doesn't matter what new angles you come up with, or what words to bold in your statements. But feel free to keep trying to turn it into something else again, even after having the last theory proven wrong about draft spending happening because of draft position, even though the Red Sox and Yankees blew that one up. For days now? I posted on this subject yesterday. Oh yeah, again you fail to give any names. And I have given specific names of players who were available at the same money the Sox were willing to pay or even less. You have provided zero examples of how if they wanted to spend more and go over slot, they would have been able to select an over slot guy. Name the over slot guys. Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yawn. Is it Saturday yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:32 PM) Gavin Floyd made 5 starts for the White Sox while Rick Hahn was the GM. Not sure why you're using that against him. He wouldn't have gotten a real big return for him anyways. I was also perfectly fine with them just giving Rios up, so getting back a guy like Garcia for him was a win. I was responding to the ludicrous idea that Hahn gets value out of guys & KW didn't. Hahn sat on Floyd his entire first offseason and although that isn't some tremendous setback for the organization it does represent a notable mistake during Hahn's brief tenure as GM. The process is still very similar to the way things were, just with the same people doing different things, and this comes from both KW and Hahn. KW was the guy talking to agents & GMs, facilitating things, Hahn was a contract guy apparently as well as a type of analyst who was involved in gathering information, and Buddy Bell was the good baseball man. Now, Kenny is more into the scouting area which plays more to his strengths (and the farm should improve) while Hahn, a much better communicator publicly, is dealing with the media, facilitating the deals, etc. and doing contract stuff. I'm sure Hahn probably delegates some of the analysis type of stuff now & focuses on more GM-types of things like budgets and so on. Buddy Bell is still a good baseball man also, he just gets paid more for it. All in all things haven't changed much & Hahn was always involved. It seems like this is a much better format for the organization though, no doubt. Edited February 10, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:37 PM) For days now? I posted on this subject yesterday. Oh yeah, again you fail to give any names. And I have given specific names of players who were available at the same money the Sox were willing to pay or even less. You have provided zero examples of how if they wanted to spend more and go over slot, they would have been able to select an over slot guy. Name the over slot guys. One click in google popped this up, for just the Orioles. Ready to change the subject again? http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/sho...erslot-Signings 05 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brandon Erbe RHP(HS) 3rd round David Hernandez RHP(CC) 16th round 06 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Zach Britton LHP(HS) 3rd round round 07 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Matt Wieters C(Collegiate) 1st round Jake Arrieta RHP(Collegiate) 5th round 08 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brian Matusz LHP(Collegiate) 1st round Bobby Bundy RHP(HS) 8th round Jesse Beal RHP(HS) 14th round Oliver Drake RHP(Collegiate) 43rd round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) One click in google popped this up, for just the Orioles. Ready to change the subject again? http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/sho...erslot-Signings 05 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brandon Erbe RHP(HS) 3rd round David Hernandez RHP(CC) 16th round 06 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Zach Britton LHP(HS) 3rd round round 07 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Matt Wieters C(Collegiate) 1st round Jake Arrieta RHP(Collegiate) 5th round 08 Overslot signings(prep or collegiate) Brian Matusz LHP(Collegiate) 1st round Bobby Bundy RHP(HS) 8th round Jesse Beal RHP(HS) 14th round Oliver Drake RHP(Collegiate) 43rd round Weiters was the 5th pick in the draft. Do you really think the other guys make the White Sox better? Try again. All that shows it that paying over slot does not guarantee success. Edited February 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:55 PM) Weiters was the 5th pick in the draft. Do you really think the other guys make the White Sox better? Try again. All that shows it that paying over slot does not guarantee success. Britton, Arieta, and Bundy? Ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 DA and SS2K, I think you two are arguing past each other. I think both of your points are true. It’s not an either/or situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:49 PM) LOL Kenny committed rape in the second Freddy deal and in the McCarthy deal. Hahn held onto Gavin Floyd until he got hurt & lost all value. And the Peavy return was quality for what Peavy was but this wasn't the "haul" type on paper, far from it. And Texas? Really? Rios was a salary dump for Abreu money. They had a dollar and only took fifty cents back. The Freddy and bmac deals are more about the kW/Ozzie feud that only got worse. Ozzie made it known he wasn't hot on McCarthy, a kW guy, and Kenny traded ozzie's niece's husband, who he was super tight with. The fact that thaw moves worked out is a bonus. Peavy for Garcia is a great deal. As for rios, sox get L Garcia for essentially $1 million. Texas had wanted more salary relief, and Hahn worked his advantage hard. Not at all unlike when Kenny got rios, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I don't think either the Garcia nor the McCarthy trades had anything to do with the Williams-Guillen feud. They weren't really feuding at that point. Most of it started with Thome/Kotsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 02:08 PM) Britton, Arieta, and Bundy? Ignored. Not ignored. Not difference makers.the 3 combined for a 0.3 WAR in 2013. Bobby is Less talented of the Bundy boys. Edited February 11, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:08 PM) Amusing as it is to read people same it was about the money, or about the development, or about the scouting, and picking ONLY ONE (LOL)... it was all the above. But I think it is worth pointing out that the organization and the system are not static. Staff has changed a lot the last few years, phiosophy in the draft has changed, they've signed 5 or 6 overslot guys the past 2-3 drafts, they've rebuilt the LatAm operations and are spending multiples of where they were a few years ago there, and Hahn has done a pretty great job this offseason (which started in July) of acquiring young, MLB-ready talent while losing next to nothing they'll need in the long haul. I think any GM in Hahn's position would have dealt the players he did so I'm not giving him all that much credit for that. The proof of his GM'ing ability will be how the players he received in return pan out. So long as Buddy Bell is involved in player development I'll remain skeptical of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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