Sox breakout player for 2014?

[southsider2k5]

Sorry, I was always good at deductive reasoning in school.

 

Are you good at teaching others?

[witesoxfan]

Are you good at teaching others?

 

Obviously not.

[southsider2k5]

Obviously not.

 

I hate you so much.

[witesoxfan]

I hate you so much.

[hogan873]

Ervin Santana does not play for the White Sox. It would require bringing him in from outside the organization while also giving up a second round pick (which is something Rick Hahn has said he will not do). Adam Dunn is already in the organization and is signed for one more year and the Sox are going to try and save money before they outright release him. Do you not see the difference or should I spell it out with blocks and pictures?

 

Stop bringing up Ervin Santana. You may as well suggest they sign Edgar Martinez or Randy Johnson because those two options have a more realistic chance of happening.

At this point, I think it's time for blocks, pictures, and puppets.

[southsider2k5]

 

 

I just can't quit you.

[witesoxfan]

I love that gif. I think we need to make it an emoticon.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Ervin Santana does not play for the White Sox. It would require bringing him in from outside the organization while also giving up a second round pick (which is something Rick Hahn has said he will not do). Adam Dunn is already in the organization and is signed for one more year and the Sox are going to try and save money before they outright release him. Do you not see the difference or should I spell it out with blocks and pictures?

 

Stop bringing up Ervin Santana. You may as well suggest they sign Edgar Martinez or Randy Johnson because those two options have a more realistic chance of happening.

The Sox are obligated to *PAY* one. They are not obligated to *PLAY* either. Is there something in Dunn's contract that says he needs a roster spot and PA otherwise the Sox have to pay him more or something? No. No there's not. No.

 

Here's something else to chew on:

 

Let's say Dunn gets hurt in ST, blows out his knee or something and is out for the season. The Sox would recoup a good amount of that $15M in insurance, they'd gain a 25-man roster spot *AND* a 40-man roster spot also since they could put him on the 60-DL all year. That *ALONE* represents better than anything Dunn can bring back in trade. Go ahead and even try to dispute that.

 

When the best thing that can happen for one of your players is a season-ending injury that frees up roster spots and allows you take get back cash through your insurance company then you're looking at a pretty s***ty, worthless player doesn't deserve PA at the expense of any other position player we have on this team who is reasonably young and is controllable for at least 2 more seasons.

 

[witesoxfan]

So you think the best thing that can happen to Adam Dunn is for him to get seriously injured? That's pretty f***ing messed up.

 

Frankly, I could care less if Adam Dunn is on the roster. I've said that before. But as a fan, I'd prefer the Sox recoup some money than none, and I sure as hell hope he doesn't get seriously hurt.

Edited February 13, 2014 by witesoxfan

[The Ultimate Champion]

So you think the best thing that can happen to Adam Dunn is for him to get seriously injured? That's pretty f***ing messed up.

 

Frankly, I could care less if Adam Dunn is on the roster. I've said that before. But as a fan, I'd prefer the Sox recoup some money than none, and I sure as hell hope he doesn't get seriously hurt.

You know exactly what I mean but you're spinning it.

 

An injury yields roster space and lots of $$$ back. No trade can do that. That alone describes the worth of Dunn.

 

I don't want the guy to have to sit out the year because he's hurt, I just don't want him on the team. He can play for anyone else, I don't care, as long as it's not here.

[lasttriptotulsa]

You know exactly what I mean but you're spinning it.

 

An injury yields roster space and lots of $$$ back. No trade can do that. That alone describes the worth of Dunn.

 

I don't want the guy to have to sit out the year because he's hurt, I just don't want him on the team. He can play for anyone else, I don't care, as long as it's not here.

 

You have no idea whether or not the Sox took out an insurance policy on Adam Dunn's contract. As expensive as those policies are, it would not surprise me in the least if they did not seeing as how it was only a four year deal and Dunn had only played less than 150 games once in his career.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I assume the Sox would take out policies on every sizable contract. That Dunn contract was one of the largest in Sox history at the time.

 

I mean come on, it's JR, the contract is covered.

 

And again the injury point is more to illustrate his trade value and proper expectations. DeAza shouldn't lose playing time because of him, neither should Viciedo, neither should any potentially useful bench player or spot starter such as Gillaspie who probably stands to loose the most, nor should the Sox lose versatility on the bench. They have a 4-man bench most likely which includes Paulie who can stand there at 1B a couple days per week.

 

At least without Dunn the Sox could have Gillaspie, Keppinger and take one of Danks/MIF. DeAza in LF could slide to CF when Eaton needs a day off & someone could cover LF, and when Avi needs the day off maybe Gillaspie or Viciedo are out there. Ideally the Sox would have both a MIF and Danks as a CF backup but that's probably not happening.

 

Edit: I actually forgot about the extra catcher. Jeez the bench is in a bad spot. Sox need to dump Dunn and make at least one trade on top of it.

Edited February 13, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[Eminor3rd]

The Sox are obligated to *PAY* one. They are not obligated to *PLAY* either. Is there something in Dunn's contract that says he needs a roster spot and PA otherwise the Sox have to pay him more or something? No. No there's not. No.

 

Here's something else to chew on:

 

Let's say Dunn gets hurt in ST, blows out his knee or something and is out for the season. The Sox would recoup a good amount of that $15M in insurance, they'd gain a 25-man roster spot *AND* a 40-man roster spot also since they could put him on the 60-DL all year. That *ALONE* represents better than anything Dunn can bring back in trade. Go ahead and even try to dispute that.

 

When the best thing that can happen for one of your players is a season-ending injury that frees up roster spots and allows you take get back cash through your insurance company then you're looking at a pretty s***ty, worthless player doesn't deserve PA at the expense of any other position player we have on this team who is reasonably young and is controllable for at least 2 more seasons.

 

So since the last time we signed an expensive mid-30's FA, it turned out so bad you want him to get hurt, the answer is we should do it again with Ervin Santana, even though the team is in a much worse position to compete?

[lasttriptotulsa]

I assume the Sox would take out policies on every sizable contract. That Dunn contract was one of the largest in Sox history at the time.

 

I mean come on, it's JR, the contract is covered.

 

And again the injury point is more to illustrate his trade value and proper expectations. DeAza shouldn't lose playing time because of him, neither should Viciedo, neither should any potentially useful bench player or spot starter such as Gillaspie who probably stands to loose the most, nor should the Sox lose versatility on the bench. They have a 4-man bench most likely which includes Paulie who can stand there at 1B a couple days per week.

 

At least without Dunn the Sox could have Gillaspie, Keppinger and take one of Danks/MIF. DeAza in LF could slide to CF when Eaton needs a day off & someone could cover LF, and when Avi needs the day off maybe Gillaspie or Viciedo are out there. Ideally the Sox would have both a MIF and Danks as a CF backup but that's probably not happening.

 

Edit: I actually forgot about the extra catcher. Jeez the bench is in a bad spot. Sox need to dump Dunn and make at least one trade on top of it.

 

First, on the insurance thing. I had done a little research on contract insurance policies in the past and I believe the premiums could be upwards of 10% of the player's contract. They also only paid between around 50%-75% and were usually only given in three year timeframes before the policy had to be renewed. So if the Sox had taken out a three year policy on Dunn, it would be expired already and they wouldn't take out another for one year. It's not like the insurance company is just going to hand them a $15 million check.

 

Second, the logjam on the bench was caused by JR's emotions of not letting Konerko go even though the time has come. Dunn should be the everyday starting DH on the team until they get close to the trade deadline when a contending team will certainly be interested if he puts up similar numbers to last year. Your suggestion that Dunn be released because he is taking at bats away from Conor f***ing Gillaspie is absolutely ridiculous. If Hahn/JR would ever be willing to eat Dunn's $15 million and lose his 30+ HRs and 80+ RBIs to get Conor Gillaspie in the lineup, well then it's time Hahn start looking for a new job and time for JR to sell the team.

 

With Viciedo, Eaton and Garcia all set to start, there is no room for De Aza at the price he is being paid. Hahn needs to keep looking into trading De Aza, Keppinger and Gillaspie. End of story.

Edited February 13, 2014 by lasttriptotulsa

[harfman77]

So if De Aza is the best outfielder out of spring training, you don't think Robin starts start him because winning is worse than hoping Viciedo eventually blossoms or Eaton eventually proves he is not a 4th outfielder. Remember, Eaton was pulled from more than 25% of the games he started in CF and RF last year.

 

If De Aza is the best OF, Eaton gets stashed in AAA getting everyday AB's until ADA gets dealt.

[harfman77]

First, on the insurance thing. I had done a little research on contract insurance policies in the past and I believe the premiums could be upwards of 10% of the player's contract. They also only paid between around 50%-75% and were usually only given in three year timeframes before the policy had to be renewed. So if the Sox had taken out a three year policy on Dunn, it would be expired already and they wouldn't take out another for one year. It's not like the insurance company is just going to hand them a $15 million check.

 

Second, the logjam on the bench was caused by JR's emotions of not letting Konerko go even though the time has come. Dunn should be the everyday starting DH on the team until they get close to the trade deadline when a contending team will certainly be interested if he puts up similar numbers to last year. Your suggestion that Dunn be released because he is taking at bats away from Conor f***ing Gillaspie is absolutely ridiculous. If Hahn/JR would ever be willing to eat Dunn's $15 million and lose his 30+ HRs and 80+ RBIs to get Conor Gillaspie in the lineup, well then it's time Hahn start looking for a new job and time for JR to sell the team.

 

With Viciedo, Eaton and Garcia all set to start, there is no room for De Aza at the price he is being paid. Hahn needs to keep looking into trading De Aza, Keppinger and Gillaspie. End of story.

 

Which means that De Aza, Keppinger and Gillaspie need to play everyday to build enough value that someone will trade for them.

[lasttriptotulsa]

If De Aza is the best OF, Eaton gets stashed in AAA getting everyday AB's until ADA gets dealt.

 

The Sox are playing for the future more than the present. There is nearly zero chance that ADA gets a roster spot over Eaton. If ADA is not on the opening top 25 man, then it is Jordan Danks who is out and the Sox will use a 4 man rotation in the OF.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Which means that De Aza, Keppinger and Gillaspie need to play everyday to build enough value that someone will trade for them.

 

De Aza has enough value to be traded for something semi decent now. Keppinger and Gillaspie need to be sent packing for whatever the Sox can get. Neither one is starting caliber and will never bring back anything more than a marginal prospect, especially with the money that is tied to Keppinger.

[The Ultimate Champion]

So since the last time we signed an expensive mid-30's FA, it turned out so bad you want him to get hurt, the answer is we should do it again with Ervin Santana, even though the team is in a much worse position to compete?

No.

 

If you don't want to sign Santana, fine. If you think the draft pick and slot $$$ is too good to pass up then I understand.

 

What I don't understand is how Santana is too old to sign but Dunn, much older at 34, needs to play.

 

Can't have both.

 

BTW EMinor, have you ever thought about how much better this roster would function without Dunn around? Have you taken time to truly consider what kind of player Viciedo could become this year if given every opportunity? Have you considered DeAza's offensive value over the years, and specifically how valuable he could be if only asked to play LF and given a full season of ABs? Also, did you know that Connor Gillaspie has a little upside to offer?

 

Why don't you cross the gravel line, come on over to this side of the field for a while. It's nice over here.

 

Have a cup of coffee. Umm, coffee.

 

 

Great. Oh gee, looky here what I found! Why don't you sit down and have a slice?

 

 

So tell me EMinor, have you ever considered a White Sox world without Adam Dunn?

[ILMOU]

With Viciedo, Eaton and Garcia all set to start, there is no room for De Aza at the price he is being paid. Hahn needs to keep looking into trading De Aza, Keppinger and Gillaspie. End of story.

 

Oh, if that were only true.

 

Season needs to start, fast.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[lasttriptotulsa]

No.

 

If you don't want to sign Santana, fine. If you think the draft pick and slot $$$ is too good to pass up then I understand.

 

What I don't understand is how Santana is too old to sign but Dunn, much older at 34, needs to play.

 

Can't have both.

 

BTW EMinor, have you ever thought about how much better this roster would function without Dunn around? Have you taken time to truly consider what kind of player Viciedo could become this year if given every opportunity? Have you considered DeAza's offensive value over the years, and specifically how valuable he could be if only asked to play LF and given a full season of ABs? Also, did you know that Connor Gillaspie has a little upside to offer?

 

One is a pitcher and one is a DH. Apples and oranges.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Gillaspie has what 5 years control remaining?

 

Lefty bat, can play the corner IF, hit 13 HR in his first full season with a .245 BA and an OBP 60 points higher which shows he can take some walks. He's more valuable to the Sox future than Dunn is by a mile. If you fail to understand that then I don't know what else to say. Gillaspie at 26 has a shot at becoming much better while Dunn at 34 is only going to decline. Anyone who would just dump Gillaspie doesn't get it. He has future value, Dunn does not.

[harfman77]

De Aza has enough value to be traded for something semi decent now. Keppinger and Gillaspie need to be sent packing for whatever the Sox can get. Neither one is starting caliber and will never bring back anything more than a marginal prospect, especially with the money that is tied to Keppinger.

 

When you are playing for the future more than the present, it makes little sense to get rid of assets and their lowest possible value. Kepp's value really only has one way to go, Gillaspie is talented enough to be a regular, not an all-star or anything, but somebody who can man the position and not hurt the team. He will have value to someone when their starting 3B doesn't pan out. De Aza's biggest negative is his makeup right now, his head just wasn't there defensively or on the basepaths last season, and until he can prove that was a fluke, your are not getting his true value in a trade. If its not a fluke, it doesn't really affect his value as that is the image scouts already have of him. I am all for moving De Aza in the right package, I just dont see a team out there with a big enough need to give up what he is worth. Once the season starts and teams get a look at what they have, he will be much more valuable as long as he isn't a platoon player.

[lasttriptotulsa]

When you are playing for the future more than the present, it makes little sense to get rid of assets and their lowest possible value. Kepp's value really only has one way to go, Gillaspie is talented enough to be a regular, not an all-star or anything, but somebody who can man the position and not hurt the team. He will have value to someone when their starting 3B doesn't pan out. De Aza's biggest negative is his makeup right now, his head just wasn't there defensively or on the basepaths last season, and until he can prove that was a fluke, your are not getting his true value in a trade. If its not a fluke, it doesn't really affect his value as that is the image scouts already have of him. I am all for moving De Aza in the right package, I just dont see a team out there with a big enough need to give up what he is worth. Once the season starts and teams get a look at what they have, he will be much more valuable as long as he isn't a platoon player.

 

When you are playing for the future, it makes no sense to play guys who are not considered to be key parts of said future (Gillaspie, De Aza, Keppinger) over guys that are being counted on to be key components of the future Sox (Eaton, Davidson).

[Eminor3rd]

No.

 

If you don't want to sign Santana, fine. If you think the draft pick and slot $$$ is too good to pass up then I understand.

 

What I don't understand is how Santana is too old to sign but Dunn, much older at 34, needs to play.

 

Can't have both.

 

BTW EMinor, have you ever thought about how much better this roster would function without Dunn around? Have you taken time to truly consider what kind of player Viciedo could become this year if given every opportunity? Have you considered DeAza's offensive value over the years, and specifically how valuable he could be if only asked to play LF and given a full season of ABs? Also, did you know that Connor Gillaspie has a little upside to offer?

 

Why don't you cross the gravel line, come on over to this side of the field for a while. It's nice over here.

 

Have a cup of coffee. Umm, coffee.

 

Great. Oh gee, looky here what I found! Why don't you sit down and have a slice?

 

So tell me EMinor, have you ever considered a White Sox world without Adam Dunn?

 

Haha. You have a future as a political campaign advisor.

 

Yeah I mean I think the best solution would have been to insist on only carrying one DH. The easiest way to do that was to not sign sign Konerko. But they did.

 

Signing Konerko was not the end of the world, but then they pretty much HAD to move someone else, ideally Keppinger, to make room for a reasonable bench. But they didn't.

 

Instead, they made the logjam worse by adding Eaton. Fine! Great move, assuming now you have to move De Aza. But they didn't.

 

So I don't disagree at all with your assessment of the problems. I would have done things a bit differently, I think. But given what we have now, my solution is move De Aza because he has some small amount of surplus value at his price and should, theoretically, bring some return of significance, even if it's small.

 

Dunn bring NOTHING back at this point, but might bring something back in the summer. The cost is sunk. I would NOT be advocating signing Dunn to a one year deal, but that's not the situation. He's already signed. That's what wite was trying to explain -- Ervin/Dunn are not comparable because we've already paid for one and would still have to buy the other. The argument to use what we've bought in Dunn is not the same as supporting 34 year old FA in general.

 

You could make an argument that Dunn blocks Viciedo, but I don't think that's the case. Actually, Konerko blocks Viciedo, because it makes NO sense to have either of them only hit righties. So the real problem is that Dunn blocks De Aza or De Aza blocks Dunn. Given that Dunn can only be released at a loss but De Aza can be released at some return, and that we won;t win jack s*** either way, the best answer is to move De Aza and keep Dunn to move at the deadline.

 

EDIT: Can I still have the coffee?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Eminor3rd