Is Kansas a Laughingstock or Do You Not Care?

[StrangeSox]

Those states, Colorado and New Mexico, had explicit language defining sexual orientation as a protected class in those states.

[Iwritecode]

What's the distinction there?

 

I could be confusing it with the Arizona law that was just vetoed but it’s not about allowing businesses to discriminate against gays. They can already do that. It’s about freedom for business owners to discriminate without fear of lawsuits.

[Soxbadger]

I could be confusing it with the Arizona law that was just vetoed but it’s not about allowing businesses to discriminate against gays. They can already do that. It’s about freedom for business owners to discriminate without fear of lawsuits.

 

You cant create that law. Anyone can sue for any reason, even no reason. Its ultimately up to a judge to determine the validity of a case.

 

And heres the funniest part. If this is a law, and someone sued, they could potentially take it to the Kansas Supreme Court, where the law could be invalidated as unconstitutional under KS law.

 

So no, this does nothing to prevent lawsuits, if anything it creates an environment to file more lawsuits.

 

Its so illogically dumb, just so dumb.

[Jenksismyhero]

Nothing remotely close to a finding that the 2nd amendment gives you the right to carry a gun onto a property over the objection of that property's owner has happened. At best, you're talking about a hypothetical future finding of a constitutional right that there's no indication of today. Heller made reference to federal, state and local laws barring the possession of guns, not to any private restriction.

 

Think through the implications here. If it's found that the 2nd amendment means you can carry your gun into a store or to work over the objections of the store owner or your employer, how does this apply to first amendment rights? Is your employer barred from ever firing you for your speech because of the first amendment? Can a store owner not refuse you service because you are using a bunch of racial slurs? Is SoxTalk's language filter unconstitutional because is suppresses my free speech? Was it unconstitutional to ban duke?

 

How does this apply to equal protection? Public accommodations laws are found in things like the CRA, not in the Constitution, so are these suddenly redundant and it's now unconstitutional for a private actor to racially discriminate? On that note, how does it even make sense to find that your employer saying "don't bring guns" is unconstitutional? The Constitution defines what the government may do, not private actors. A state law saying that a gun cannot be carried into grocery stores could very well be found unconstitutional, but how would Jewel saying "no guns" be found unconstitutional? Does it even make sense to talk about something like Jewel committing unconstitutional acts?

 

The Constitution sets out the baseline of rights. You have right X. From there states can limit that right, but it can't do so without a legitimate reason (and its narrowly tailored and all that). CC operates that way as well, and I think the fight for that is just beginning now that gun owners finally got a solid SC decision on what the 2nd amendment means.

 

I'm not suggesting you have the right now, unfettered. It's a right being restricted by state law's option to private owners to post a sign (and other more legitimate gun ban laws, permit laws, etc.). But clearly you have the right to enter into a private business and have your gun in every state now, both because of the constitutional right to have a gun, as well as state law allowing CC. If the private owners fail to abide by the signage rule, they can't kick you out and you won't be charged with trespassing (in theory). You're following the law and your rights.

 

That's exactly the arguments that are made in discrimination cases. You would think a private citizen could restrict who comes on to their property and who can't, but federal laws like CRA were passed and were determined to be constitutional, the private citizens' rights are ignored in favor of the rights of protected classes.

 

I'm not sure what your confusion is here? Yes, the Constitution (part of it anyways) sets forth what the government can/can't do, but rights are also prescribed for individuals. They apply to all individuals. And unless there's some state law or federal law that constitutionally alters that right, it's the law of the land.

[StrangeSox]

Well yeah, because these states haven't defined sexual orientation as a protected class, they already can discriminate and are legally protected when they do. So they're really just redundant and meant to send a message.

 

edit: crosspost, meant for iwc

Edited February 27, 2014 by StrangeSox

[jasonxctf]

I'd vote for Arizona being the wtf state.

 

Sheriff joe

Immigration law

Anti gay law

Gabby giffords incident

Gov brewer

 

From an outsiders perspective I feel like there are two Arizonans. The life longers who feel that "their" state is under attack and the new Arizona. (Immigrants, snow birds, younger folks) who just can't get along.

[greg775]

Brownback is a f***ing fool and we elected him.

[greg775]

Kansas took away tenure for teachers now. Weird state.

[StrangeSox]

IIRC Kansas is currently run by Republican supermajorities

[Jenksismyhero]

Kansas took away tenure for teachers now. Weird state.

 

Good, tenure is a dumb system anyway. I had too many teachers in high school that were just showing up to cash dem checks. They knew their performance didn't mean anything and they taught accordingly (preemptive strike: obviously this is not true of ALL teachers).

[Texsox]

Good, tenure is a dumb system anyway. I had too many teachers in high school that were just showing up to cash dem checks. They knew their performance didn't mean anything and they taught accordingly (preemptive strike: obviously this is not true of ALL teachers).

I understand the frustration and I wish I had a better answer after working as a teacher for five years.

 

BTW, tenure doesn't guarantee someone a job, it guarantees a proper review before they can be fired. And now that teachers who buck that system and are new an innovative can be fired, what will be left? Will the system reward risk takers, or the teachers who strictly follow the curriculum and do what has always been done? Will it be the ones who cozy up to the administration and ones who try something different, ignoring what has been done forever? If the school has a strict policy against cell phones and a teacher actually has the students using them in class, thus breaking the rule, will they be chopped or rewarded?

 

I don't have the answers. I went from Sales Management with a very easy accountability system to teaching. I can't give you a better system besides allowing subjective ratings based on educators that have watched the teacher in the classroom. But our society wants objective ratings. I have a student that brags how he can stay up all night playing video games. He gets about an hour of sleep, then sleeps through my class. If I wake him up he starts to smart off and disrupt the class. His mom will tell you straight to your face that her son sleeping in class is my fault and that she knows he is sleeping because she goes to bed at 10:00 and she doesn't hear him. There are a whole lot of factors at play, students, teachers, administration, parents, and society, yet we are trying to judge one piece of the puzzle.

 

How do you compare my performance as a 8th grade ELA course with 35% English Language Learners (ELL), close to 50% English as a second language (ESL), and 60% reading below their grade level with a class in a richer, anglo, area with zero ESLs and ELLs? Once they start using test scores, I'm bailing for a school district where a greater percentage of the parents graduated from high school and college, which is the #1 most reliable indicator of a kid's success in school.

[greg775]

I understand the frustration and I wish I had a better answer after working as a teacher for five years.

 

BTW, tenure doesn't guarantee someone a job, it guarantees a proper review before they can be fired. And now that teachers who buck that system and are new an innovative can be fired, what will be left? Will the system reward risk takers, or the teachers who strictly follow the curriculum and do what has always been done? Will it be the ones who cozy up to the administration and ones who try something different, ignoring what has been done forever? If the school has a strict policy against cell phones and a teacher actually has the students using them in class, thus breaking the rule, will they be chopped or rewarded?

 

I don't have the answers. I went from Sales Management with a very easy accountability system to teaching. I can't give you a better system besides allowing subjective ratings based on educators that have watched the teacher in the classroom. But our society wants objective ratings. I have a student that brags how he can stay up all night playing video games. He gets about an hour of sleep, then sleeps through my class. If I wake him up he starts to smart off and disrupt the class. His mom will tell you straight to your face that her son sleeping in class is my fault and that she knows he is sleeping because she goes to bed at 10:00 and she doesn't hear him. There are a whole lot of factors at play, students, teachers, administration, parents, and society, yet we are trying to judge one piece of the puzzle.

 

How do you compare my performance as a 8th grade ELA course with 35% English Language Learners (ELL), close to 50% English as a second language (ESL), and 60% reading below their grade level with a class in a richer, anglo, area with zero ESLs and ELLs? Once they start using test scores, I'm bailing for a school district where a greater percentage of the parents graduated from high school and college, which is the #1 most reliable indicator of a kid's success in school.

 

 

I was wondering, what happens when a kid sleeps through your class every day? Is the kid getting an F? Or are you not allowed to give F's? What's the procedure these days regarding teachers giving kids F's? Here's my guess: You have to alert the kid and the parents at the first sign he/she is strugglng and my guess is it's very difficult to give a kid an F or D. Am I correct? Back in the day, if you sucked in a class or pulled the sleep routine, uh, you were getting a big, fat F.

Also, it's hilarious thinking about what would happen today, but if you were sleeping in a class taught by a crusty old brother at Brother Rice, he would definitely either throw an eraser at you and it would connect or he might even blast you a slap in your face. You'd definitely get 'roughed up' a bit.

Edited May 9, 2014 by greg775

[StrangeSox]

My wife is a teacher. Her principles policy is that parents are contacted (email is okay) on a weekly basis for any kid with a d or f. She can and has given out those grades for a quarter.

[StrangeSox]

Also good points by tex regarding what tenure actually means and how it gives teachers due process instead of the arbitrary hiring and firing most of us face.

[Texsox]

The sleeper? I am suppose to wake him up and deal with his fatigue and tantrums disrupting the class. Mom has been called, it is my fault. He goes to bed at 10:00 when she does. He wouldn't lie to her, just to us.

 

Currently I don't know if I have a job for next year, the district has not passed out new contracts for 2014-2015. Most likely I will sign a contract sometime this month then in August find out what I will be earning. Teacher salaries could go up, down, or stay the same. How many people here accept one year contracts then find out what they will be earning?

 

Anyhow the process in being retained in 8th grade in Texas is simple. You will be sent to summer school if you fail the standard state exams in Reading or Math. You may also be sent to summer school if you fail 2 or more of your core academic classes. If you successfully fulfill the requirements for summer school (all four weeks) you will be passed. If you fail summer school as well a committee is formed with your parent, a school administrator, and a teacher. They also can pass you to the high school, which they almost always do.

 

Here's a couple facts about retention. The graduation rate for a child who is retained once drops to about 25%, retained twice and it is less than 5%. Once they are removed from their peer group, behavior and success drops like a rock. Also, academically they generally do not improve much, if at all. I have a student that has been retained twice who is now in my class for his second dose of 8 th grade ELA. He is 16 and in middle school with 13 year old boys and girls. He is failing all four subjects and failed state exams, mostly because he has given up, is lazy, and probably involved in gangs. Shall we retain him in 8th grade again? He will probably never pass 8th grade, how long would you have him interacting with 13 to 15 year old students? Until he is 18? 21? I know some will say it is my fault he is not passing this year, if I could somehow motivate him all would be well. But so far about all I have gotten him to do is stop bothering the other students.

 

So the sleeper will probably be moved on, against everyone's wishes except the mom. The kid needs an attitude adjustment and academically he would do just fine, he's a bright kid.

 

The other issue is crowding. Our campus is about maxed out, as are the other middle school grade campuses. So if we were to retain say 20 or 30 students that most of us would agree should be retained, we would either building more classrooms or move our average class size to over 30 from 28. Making classroom management that is already tough even tougher.

 

And the public's solution is to get rid of teachers who aren't producing? The teachers on my campus in 8th grade and Language Arts (the only two groups I see on a regular basis) are all hard working. Some are stretched thin coaching and sponsoring, some because there is no one else who will take that duty.

 

I see the problems, if the solutions were easy, they would have been implemented. But parents that believe standing up for their child means that the school is always wrong and their child is always right, even looking at video tape and looking at school work, who refuse to make their child do any homework or do not allow them to stay after school for tutoring because they are needed at home to care for a sibling, get a job, etc. make it very difficult.

 

 

[Jake]

When tenure at the HS level has problems, which it does not always have, it is because too often tenure is given out as if it is automatic so long as you work a given amount of years. If you give a sub-par educator tenure, they probably will get worse after they get it. They certainly won't get any better.

 

The other issue can be feckless administrators who are afraid to go after a tenured teacher who isn't doing their job. Tenure doesn't protect you from not doing your job.

 

To add to the things Tex mentioned, I've lived in a school district that cut corners everywhere it could. Without tenure, every single decent educator would have been fired for entry-level replacements and I have absolutely no doubt about that. The only thing that could have saved them would have been small town politics, and it isn't like that's a good thing. Public education is not a free market for a reason - free markets have more than educational quality in mind and they certainly don't operate with the intent to deliver a great education to as many people as possible without regard to those people's income.

 

Unfortunately in Illinois, the situation I described above happened in a different way. Local school districts trying to save money were able to give educators incentives to retire early, knowing the state foots the bill for their pensions. That's a situation where it made no sense that local districts would be spending someone else's money.

[Texsox]

It should be mentioned that number of years until you are no longer a probationary employee is measured in years not months. In most companies you are a probationary employee for three months or so. With teaching it is 3-5 years. We just now started signing contracts for next year. How many other people are effectively hired for only one year at a time?

[Jenksismyhero]

It should be mentioned that number of years until you are no longer a probationary employee is measured in years not months. In most companies you are a probationary employee for three months or so. With teaching it is 3-5 years. We just now started signing contracts for next year. How many other people are effectively hired for only one year at a time?

 

Um, how about a day at a time like the vast majority of the population? Why do teachers get some special treatment just because they're teachers? I could walk into work tomorrow and they could say see you later, regardless of how long i've been there.

[Jake]

Um, how about a day at a time like the vast majority of the population? Why do teachers get some special treatment just because they're teachers? I could walk into work tomorrow and they could say see you later, regardless of how long i've been there.

 

Well, in part, it's the nature of the job. While teachers can be dismissed immediately for certain extreme things, it's hard to measure job performance in any setting, let alone without a year's worth of work to evaluate. There's also a cost to the students, for whom this is all for. Whether it's an elementary school teacher who is a group of children's only teacher or a high school teacher who is running a series of classes, it's a significant disruption to install a new teacher in there midstream. The only way you could ever manage that kind of switching effectively is to really, really homogenize the syllabi, something most people aren't big fans of doing.

 

[StrangeSox]

There's a difference between contractor employees who take jobs with a fixed length defined up front and regular employment anyway.

 

 

[Texsox]

Um, how about a day at a time like the vast majority of the population? Why do teachers get some special treatment just because they're teachers? I could walk into work tomorrow and they could say see you later, regardless of how long i've been there.

 

We can be fired any day and for probably the same reasons as you might. Theft, violence, drunk on the job, being late, too many absences, etc as long as it is under specific policies and procedures. Part of the reasoning is the abuses that have occurred with political hirings. A new school board is elected and they begin firing teachers to clear room for their friends, supporters, and relatives. It's the same kind of trouble that happened under the old patronage system. If your candidate was elected you got that nice new job in streets and sans and your opponent's friends, supporters, and relatives were fired.

 

Another reason is we are not allowed to quit mid year while under contract. Of course you could just refuse to honor your contract but you will never work in education again.

 

I began working in education after 25 years in sales and marketing. I understand the public's desire to improve education and most of the teachers I work with are passionate about improving it as well. If there were easy answers they would have been implemented. You don't get a cow fat by weighing it and you don't teach kids by testing them. But the testing gives you reasonable objective data. But even then there is an inherit problem in comparing student performance between teachers. Just like baseball managers the manager of the year doesn't always win the WS. Great teachers in a school of poor children without parent support will have lower test scores than the worlds worst teacher in a district where parent's attended college and are involved with their child's education. Any system that begins ranking teachers based on their students will cause the best teachers to go find the districts with the best students. That may be a good thing overall for society, but it might not be.

 

Are there teachers that shouldn't be teaching? Of course. But there are also a lot of great teachers in difficult, challenging situations.

[Texsox]

This may not be another reason, we are busy building our scope and sequence, curriculum, and lesson plans for next year. We all have the same start point and the same end point (usually a state mandated test tied to specific objectives). If you test my students in January on poetry they will be way ahead of the curve, I use poetry a lot early in the year. If you test my students on elements of Utopian literature in January, they will be far behind, I start The Giver and the lessons in February. Should I be fired because they are failing Utopian or given a raise because they are so far ahead in poetry? Until all the factors are in at the end of the school year, I'm not certain you can judge a teacher based on learning outcomes. Again, the usual stuff like gross insubordination, drunkenness, violence, getting arrested for a DUI, porn, pot, or any of those types of things would have us out the door regardless if it was a third year teacher without tenure or a fifth year teacher with tenure.

[Texsox]

Oops, I know I keep adding, but tenure does not typically follow K-12 teachers from job to job. You could be in a district for 20 years but once you switch districts you are probationary for another 3-5 years.

[greg775]

Kansas is such a joke. State Government that turns down money from the federal government for its people and other groups.

For instance, the Board of Regents recently passed a policy indicating teachers could get fired over stuff they put on social media, in a sense stifling freedom of speech. Lots of teachers at the university are so upset they are immediately looking for new jobs.

Edited May 30, 2014 by greg775

[LittleHurt05]

Kansas is such a joke. State Government that turns down money from the federal government for its people and other groups.

For instance, the Board of Regents recently passed a policy indicating teachers could get fired over stuff they put on social media, in a sense stifling freedom of speech. Lots of teachers at the university are so upset they are immediately looking for new jobs.

 

How is that stifling free speech? They aren't getting arrested or losing rights as a citizen.