Frank Thomas vs. Derek Jeter

[witesoxfan]

It's not -25.7 UZR, of -25.7 Defensive Runs above average. The UZR is like -150. So I think it's most accurate to say "awful shortstop" while acknowledging that anyone who can even fake SS isn't an "awful defender." Being a bad SS is much better than being an average 1B, for example, and that is reflected in fWAR (although I personally have some issues with the accuracy of 'set in stone' positional adjustments).

 

This is true, but I just can't say anybody that spent their entire career at SS is an awful defender. Like, Michael Young was not a good defensive player ever, but he's not an awful defender. Frank Thomas was an awful defender.

 

Basically, put Frank Thomas at SS and see what happens. In the same light, put Derek Jeter at 1B and see what happens too.

[TaylorStSox]

Jeter represents what's been wrong with the Yankees approach over the last decade. They've accumulated the most imaginary wins in baseball with little regard to building an actual team. Continuing to run a bad defender out there at the most premium position is not a very good way to win big games. Call me old fashioned, but I'm building my team around a SS that can actually get to balls hit 3 feet to the left.

[witesoxfan]

Jeter represents what's been wrong with the Yankees approach over the last decade. They've accumulated the most imaginary wins in baseball with little regard to building an actual team. Continuing to run a bad defender out there at the most premium position is not a very good way to win big games. Call me old fashioned, but I'm building my team around a SS that can actually get to balls hit 3 feet to the left.

 

No, what's been wrong with the Yankees is continuing to throw money at mediocre to old players and not looking for vast improvements when the opportunity arises. Ichiro is easily the best Japanese player in MLB history and one of the best of the past 15 years, but the fact that they ran him out for 555 PAs last year and apparently appear to do so again is far more problematic than using a good hitter and poor defender at an up the middle position.

[TaylorStSox]

No, what's been wrong with the Yankees is continuing to throw money at mediocre to old players and not looking for vast improvements when the opportunity arises. Ichiro is easily the best Japanese player in MLB history and one of the best of the past 15 years, but the fact that they ran him out for 555 PAs last year and apparently appear to do so again is far more problematic than using a good hitter and poor defender at an up the middle position.

Wrong.

 

Does anybody else find it ironic that imaginary wins fans are so damn "defensive?"

Edited February 19, 2014 by TaylorStSox

[Rowand44]

Regarding this entire debate, I tend to believe that if people think Jeter is overrated, then they underrate how good he actually was, especially offensively.

This has basically been my thought forever.

[witesoxfan]

Wrong.

 

Does anybody else find it ironic that imaginary wins fans are so damn "defensive?"

 

It's not wrong. And that post had nothing to do with WAR or UZR or anything sabermetrics. It had to do with the Yankees bringing in old players and expecting them to perform well with Ichiro being perfectly symbolic of that ideology.

 

I'm not defensive about anything other than my stance that Jeter was a below average defensive shortstop. Oh, and the idea that he wasn't a top 100 player (because he absolutely was and I feel as though I've thoroughly backed that).

[Harry Chappas]

The ability to out spend every other team and most teams over twice as much is what makes the Yankees what they, are not Derek Jeter.

 

He is a grossly overpaid but is a good consistent player and a hall of famer.

 

He is nowhere near the top ten all time, what in his stat line screams this?

 

This are his baseball reference comparables;

 

Craig Biggio (823)

Paul Molitor (805) *

Roberto Alomar (789) *

Robin Yount (786) *

Charlie Gehringer (756) *

Johnny Damon (729)

Ivan Rodriguez (723)

Joe Morgan (723) *

Ted Simmons (718)

Frankie Frisch (716) *

 

These are Frank Thomas

 

Jeff Bagwell (874)

Manny Ramirez (865)

Fred McGriff (861)

Jim Thome (854)

Mickey Mantle (840) *

Gary Sheffield (832)

Albert Pujols (822)

Carlos Delgado (812)

Willie McCovey (812) *

Jimmie Foxx (810) *

 

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

It's not wrong. And that post had nothing to do with WAR or UZR or anything sabermetrics. It had to do with the Yankees bringing in old players and expecting them to perform well with Ichiro being perfectly symbolic of that ideology.

 

I'm not defensive about anything other than my stance that Jeter was a below average defensive shortstop. Oh, and the idea that he wasn't a top 100 player (because he absolutely was and I feel as though I've thoroughly backed that).

 

You can't be a top player when half your game is putrid. You have to have a complete game. It's incredible how much defense has become undervalued. I'll take a great fielding SS over a great hitting SS every day of the week and it's not close. Pitching and defense still wins baseball games and always will.

 

If Jeter would have played 2nd or 3rd, the argument changes. But he didn't. They ran him out there at SS and he hurt his team. That's not my fault.

[Eminor3rd]

This is true, but I just can't say anybody that spent their entire career at SS is an awful defender. Like, Michael Young was not a good defensive player ever, but he's not an awful defender. Frank Thomas was an awful defender.

 

Basically, put Frank Thomas at SS and see what happens. In the same light, put Derek Jeter at 1B and see what happens too.

 

Troof

[witesoxfan]

You can't be a top player when half your game is putrid. You have to have a complete game. It's incredible how much defense has become undervalued. I'll take a great fielding SS over a great hitting SS every day of the week and it's not close. Pitching and defense still wins baseball games and always will.

 

If Jeter would have played 2nd or 3rd, the argument changes. But he didn't. They ran him out there at SS and he hurt his team. That's not my fault.

 

-Then Frank Thomas is not a top player. Babe Ruth is probably not a top player. Ken Griffey Jr is not a top player (talk about reputation being bigger than the numbers - after like '91-'96, his defense is severely overrated).

-You are also saying you'd take prime John McDonald over prime Alex Rodriguez any day of the week.

-You say that pitching and defense still wins championships, yet Jeter missed the playoffs twice in his career and has a fistful of World Series rings. Not sure if that statement helps or hurts your argument here.

-Running Jeter out at SS obviously did not hurt them. Again, they missed the playoffs twice in his career and won 5 World Series titles.

 

You're making very narrow statements that the facts simply don't support.

 

[lasttriptotulsa]

You can't be a top player when half your game is putrid. You have to have a complete game. It's incredible how much defense has become undervalued. I'll take a great fielding SS over a great hitting SS every day of the week and it's not close. Pitching and defense still wins baseball games and always will.

 

If Jeter would have played 2nd or 3rd, the argument changes. But he didn't. They ran him out there at SS and he hurt his team. That's not my fault.

 

Can't win a game without scoring. One player effects a game on offense far greater than he ever could on defense and players have a hell of a better chance sticking in the majors by being an all bat, no glove player instead of an all glove, no bat player. I mean honestly, how many HOFers are there because of their defense? Even the ones that are, most were solid with the bat. Many, many HOFers are there solely because of their bat with no regards to their defense.

 

While I'm not a Jeter fan, his bat was far more beneficial to the Yankees than his defense was detrimental and that's not even debatable.

[Eminor3rd]

Can't win a game without scoring. One player effects a game on offense far greater than he ever could on defense and players have a hell of a better chance sticking in the majors by being an all bat, no glove player instead of an all glove, no bat player. I mean honestly, how many HOFers are there because of their defense? Even the ones that are, most were solid with the bat. Many, many HOFers are there solely because of their bat with no regards to their defense.

 

While I'm not a Jeter fan, his bat was far more beneficial to the Yankees than his defense was detrimental and that's not even debatable.

 

Hence the 73 career fWAR. That's one of the beautiful things about linear weights-based stats: they give us a common denominator for offense and defense. That's why it's so interesting to see Frank and Jeter almost identical with all of that applied.

[TaylorStSox]

-Then Frank Thomas is not a top player. Babe Ruth is probably not a top player. Ken Griffey Jr is not a top player (talk about reputation being bigger than the numbers - after like '91-'96, his defense is severely overrated).

-You are also saying you'd take prime John McDonald over prime Alex Rodriguez any day of the week.

-You say that pitching and defense still wins championships, yet Jeter missed the playoffs twice in his career and has a fistful of World Series rings. Not sure if that statement helps or hurts your argument here.

-Running Jeter out at SS obviously did not hurt them. Again, they missed the playoffs twice in his career and won 5 World Series titles.

 

You're making very narrow statements that the facts simply don't support.

Griffey wasn't a top defender? Arod wasn't a top defender? They were both among the most complete players of all time. Those are awful examples. Jeter's rings are mostly from when he was a decent defender, back when the Yankees weren't building teams on a calculator.

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

Can't win a game without scoring. One player effects a game on offense far greater than he ever could on defense and players have a hell of a better chance sticking in the majors by being an all bat, no glove player instead of an all glove, no bat player. I mean honestly, how many HOFers are there because of their defense? Even the ones that are, most were solid with the bat. Many, many HOFers are there solely because of their bat with no regards to their defense.

 

While I'm not a Jeter fan, his bat was far more beneficial to the Yankees than his defense was detrimental and that's not even debatable.

I never said Jeter was more detrimental than beneficial. I said to be among the best ever, you have to be a complete player.

Jeter was a cornerstone player. It's foolish to build around a player that became so flawed.

[Eminor3rd]

Griffey wasn't a top defender? Arod wasn't a top defender? They were both among the most complete players of all time. Those are awful examples. Jeter's rings are mostly from when he was a decent defender, back when the Yankees weren't building teams on a calculator.

 

Griffey was a top defender from about 94 - 97. After that he was a liability.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I never said Jeter was more detrimental than beneficial. I said to be among the best ever, you have to be a complete player.

Jeter was a cornerstone player. It's foolish to build around a player that became so flawed.

 

You don't consider Ted Williams to be one of the greatest players ever? If not, you have lost all credibility.

[witesoxfan]

Griffey wasn't a top defender? Arod wasn't a top defender? They were both among the most complete players of all time. Those are awful examples. Jeter's rings are mostly from when he was a decent defender, back when the Yankees weren't building teams on a calculator.

 

Griffey was pretty much a one trick pony after he left Seattle, and as Eminor pointed out, there is some debate as to when the defense really started to tail off. I think Rodriguez was about as good as Jeter defensively at SS, so you're saying you'd take John McDonald over him. You'd also take John McDonald over Derek Jeter.

 

I also like that you mention that Jeter was an awful defender, yet back it by saying that Jeter's rings are from when he was a decent defender, even though he won one in 2009 too when he was apparently a terrible defender and the Yankees were winning games with calculators.

 

I also love how all my examples of proving you wrong are "awful" examples because they disagree with your point.

[TaylorStSox]

If you think Jeter is even in the neighborhood of AROD defensively, there's no point in continuing the conversation. It's like you've never actually watched a game.

[witesoxfan]

If you think Jeter is even in the neighborhood of AROD defensively, there's no point in continuing the conversation. It's like you've never actually watched a game.

 

Really? From the same guy who said 2 paragraphs was too long to read, misinterpreted everything I wrote, continues to use the same argument that "defense and pitching win championships" when Jeter has 5 rings himself (meaning you'd take John f***ing McDonald over Derek Jeter, even though you won't say it), says that Ken Griffey Jr was a complete player and not a total joke of a defender towards the end of his career, and seemingly doesn't see how poor of a defender ARod has turned into in his later years?

 

I watch plenty of baseball, thank you very much. I'd still love to hear your defense of why Babe Ruth and the otherwise mentioned Ted Williams are top 10 players of all time.

[TaylorStSox]

Lol. Why so angry? Who the f*** is John McDonald? I like the "towards the end of his career" lay down. So, you're saying Griffey regressed as he aged and was riddled with injuries? Brilliant. What else? My original Yankees post specifically was in regard to the "last decade," and I said as much. You know who I would take over Jeter? Ozzie Smith. A premium defender, at a the most premium position that could also hit a little.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Lol. Why so angry? Who the f*** is John McDonald? I like the "towards the end of his career" lay down. So, you're saying Griffey regressed as he aged and was riddled with injuries? Brilliant. What else? My original Yankees post specifically was in regard to the "last decade," and I said as much. You know who I would take over Jeter? Ozzie Smith. A premium defender, at a the most premium position that could also hit a little.

 

John McDonald was and frankly still is an incredibly gifted defensive infielder.

 

You keep changing your argument and words. I'm done with this. I've made my point and don't want to further ruin what should be a good thread.

[Eminor3rd]

Lol. Why so angry? Who the f*** is John McDonald? I like the "towards the end of his career" lay down. So, you're saying Griffey regressed as he aged and was riddled with injuries? Brilliant. What else? My original Yankees post specifically was in regard to the "last decade," and I said as much. You know who I would take over Jeter? Ozzie Smith. A premium defender, at a the most premium position that could also hit a little.

 

Griffey fluctuated between "below average" and "horrendous" defensively for the last THIRTEEN YEARS of his career.

 

Jeter vs. Smith is an interesting debate. Jeter wins by fWAR, but only by 6-8ish after this year, and defensive wins are much less reliable pre-UZR, so there's a good chance Smith defense was either under or overvalued.

[TaylorStSox]

John McDonald was and frankly still is an incredibly gifted defensive infielder.

 

You keep changing your argument and words. I'm done with this. I've made my point and don't want to further ruin what should be a good thread.

Maybe you should stop being so angry and actually try to comprehend. A review of the thread might help you. Cheers.

[witesoxfan]

Maybe you should stop being so angry and actually try to comprehend. A review of the thread might help you. Cheers.

 

I've reviewed enough. I believe Jeter is a top 50 player. You do not.

[Texsox]

In music and entertainment lists and such current stuf always is artificially inflated. In sports lists. current players seem to be deflated for a while.