Teams have interest in Viciedo/De Aza

[ILMOU]

I've felt all along that this season is designed for exactly that. Yes, if absolutely everything goes right, they can compete, but figure out what you have at several of these positions. Which young guys are going to pull through, which will need to be replaced? Is Paulino an actual option or will the Sox be in the market for a starting pticher? Which young arms in the pen will break through and become studs? Next year, they free up money and can have as much as $20 million available to them without any other moves being made - say, Alexei or De Aza getting trade this year.

Yep. Paulino's another guy that dovetails with this line of thinking for the season. Well find out if we do or don't have the pitching depth to warrant trading a resurgent John Danks, which of our MiLB infielders is the best replacement for Gordo, etc., etc.

[Chicago White Sox]

This makes sense. I mean, the reality is that Viciedo is about 400PA away from being a "change of scenery" candidate. Everyone can see the potential, but he has gotten about 0% better at hitting over his last ~1000 or so PA -- it's very possible that the coaching staff is just saying "I don't know what else to do with this guy."

I gotta disagree with you here. Viciedo was a much better player in the 2nd half of last year. He put up a .291/.327/.466 slash line which was good for a wRC+ of 114. I think it's completely unfair to ignore the improvement that a second year player demonstrated over the course of the season. He also made a lot of progress against RHP. Maybe these improvements won't carry over to 2014, but I think it's pretty ridiculous to say he's gotten 0% better.

[SoxAce]

Do we need an official club? I had no idea Marty and I agreed on something.

 

 

It is the only thing Marty and I agree on.

 

Haha, I agree with him in some instances than most here on certain topics/players. This happens to be one of them as well.

[Jake]

I gotta disagree with you here. Viciedo was a much better player in the 2nd half of last year. He put up a .291/.327/.466 slash line which was good for a wRC+ of 114. I think it's completely unfair to ignore the improvement that a second year player demonstrated over the course of the season. He also made a lot of progress against RHP. Maybe these improvements won't carry over to 2014, but I think it's pretty ridiculous to say he's gotten 0% better.

 

Yeah, there are several encouraging signs from last season. A very strong second half, major improvement against RHP. Some weird things as well, like poor numbers against LHP and at home, both which seem more flukeish than the strong finish and numbers against RHP.

[Steve9347]

Dayan Viciedo sucks.

[GreenSox]

The Sox need a power hitter in LF. De Aza isn't it. He's average, and would I think have some value to a contender as a 4th OF- he'd be very good there. Otherwise, he's a decent placeholder for a non-contender like us.

 

Viciedo COULD be the corner we need. Don't know yet.

Saunders has 33% more plate appearances and sports a .295 career OBP. The chances of him improving are less than Viciedo.

I wouldn't make that deal straight up.

Trade De Aza for prospects; dump others in July. By the end of the season, we should have a much stronger farm, which could allow us to trade to fix more holes.

[GGajewski18]

Dayan Viciedo sucks.

 

No he doesn't

[witesoxfan]

The Sox need a power hitter in LF. De Aza isn't it. He's average, and would I think have some value to a contender as a 4th OF- he'd be very good there. Otherwise, he's a decent placeholder for a non-contender like us.

 

Viciedo COULD be the corner we need. Don't know yet.

Saunders has 33% more plate appearances and sports a .295 career OBP. The chances of him improving are less than Viciedo.

I wouldn't make that deal straight up.

Trade De Aza for prospects; dump others in July. By the end of the season, we should have a much stronger farm, which could allow us to trade to fix more holes.

 

I really dislike that logic. It doesn't matter what type of hitter is in LF, you just want them to be good. There have been several teams - the Pirates notably, but others as well - that have used non-traditional LFers out there and gotten great results because they've saved runs defensively. The Sox did this with Pierre for a year too (though the next, he was awful in LF).

 

Frankly, I'd rather keep Viciedo right now because he's younger.

[Vance Law]

There have been several teams - the Pirates notably, but others as well - that have used non-traditional LFers out there and gotten great results because they've saved runs defensively. The Sox did this with Pierre for a year too (though the next, he was awful in LF).

 

Yep. I also seem to remember the White Sox winning a World Series with a Scott Pod-something out there.

 

 

For those worried about a Viciedo for Saunders trade, it's not going to happen. It just doesn't make sense based on their ages, Sox positional needs, etc.

 

But, yes, Saunders is better than Jordan Danks. And he's been the better player than Viciedo. Not really that close either.

[Eminor3rd]

I really dislike that logic. It doesn't matter what type of hitter is in LF, you just want them to be good. There have been several teams - the Pirates notably, but others as well - that have used non-traditional LFers out there and gotten great results because they've saved runs defensively.

 

+1

[Eminor3rd]

No he doesn't

 

I mean I guess it's true that even replacement level players are still REALLY good at baseball, compared to the average human being.

 

But he's been a replacement level player, so by MLB standards, he currently sucks. Maybe he'll get better, but I haven't seen anyone come up with any evidence to suggest that it's likely.

[Dick Allen]

I mean I guess it's true that even replacement level players are still REALLY good at baseball, compared to the average human being.

 

But he's been a replacement level player, so by MLB standards, he currently sucks. Maybe he'll get better, but I haven't seen anyone come up with any evidence to suggest that it's likely.

So you choose to ignore his second half and his tools, some minor league numbers, yet create threads about players who suck in the minor leagues who have been DFA'd that the Sox should consider acquiring. IMO, it's easier to come up with evidence Viciedo can be successful than a couple of the names you suggested they should pick up.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

So you choose to ignore his second half

 

Second half splits are not good predictors of future breakouts:

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/relevance...ond-half-stats/

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball...k2k10secondhalf

 

and his tools

 

Tools mean jack if the player refuses to gain skills to accompany them. It makes sense to give the player the benefit of the doubt until he shows you otherwise. Unfortunately for Viciedo... well over the past three seasons, more than 1000 plate appearances, Viciedo's strike recognition has somehow DIMINISHED. This is an extremely, extremely discouraging trend. His Achilles Heel is O-Swing: 2011 = 36.4%, 2012 = 39.9%, 2013 = 42.5%. League average hovers around 31%.

 

some minor league numbers

 

The fact that he managed an .853 OPS in AAA one year is nice, I guess, and would be encouraging if that's all we had to go on, but I can't think of any reason at all not to trust the 1200+ PAs he's had at the major league level instead. Can you?

 

yet create threads about players who suck in the minor leagues who have been DFA'd that the Sox should consider acquiring. IMO, it's easier to come up with evidence Viciedo can be successful than a couple of the names you suggested they should pick up.

 

I would argue that the performance standard for "picking up a flyer for free" is different than "logjamming your OF for four years." If it's easy to come up with evidence that Viciedo can be successful, please feel free to do so. I haven't seen anything so far.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

Second half splits are not good predictors of future breakouts:

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/relevance...ond-half-stats/

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball...k2k10secondhalf

 

Tools mean jack if the player refuses to gain skills to accompany them. It makes sense to give the player the benefit of the doubt until he shows you otherwise. Unfortunately for Viciedo... well over the past three seasons, more than 1000 plate appearances, Viciedo's strike recognition has somehow DIMINISHED. This is an extremely, extremely discouraging trend. His Achilles Heel is O-Swing: 2011 = 36.4%, 2012 = 39.9%, 2013 = 42.5%. League average hovers around 31%.

 

As for minor league numbers, the fact that he managed an .853 OPS in AAA one year is nice, I guess, and would be encouraging if that's all we had to go on, but I can't think of any reason at all not to trust the 1200+ PAs he's had at the major league level instead. Can you?

 

If it's easy to come up with evidence that Viciedo can be successful, please feel free to do so. I haven't seen anything so far.

The evidence is there. He has had stretches where he has been very effective. It's a matter of making it happen more consistently. To say there is NOTHING that says he can be successful is total hyperbole.

[Eminor3rd]

The evidence is there. He has had stretches where he has been very effective. It's a matter of making it happen more consistently. To say there is NOTHING that says he can be successful is total hyperbole.

 

Show it to me then, DA. Guess who else was awesome in stretches? Brent Lillibridge. Anyone can have a good week. We've got all kinds of results to analyze for Viciedo because he's had tons of playing time. Show me the promise in those results.

[Dick Allen]

Show it to me then, DA. Guess who else was awesome in stretches? Brent Lillibridge. Anyone can have a good week. We've got all kinds of results to analyze for Viciedo because he's had tons of playing time. Show me the promise in those results.

He murdered LHP in 2012 and couldn't hit RHP. He improved vs. RHP last year and slipped a bit vs. LHP. It's cherry-picking, but cherry picking is fine when you are looking for anything, but if you take his 2013 vs. RHP and his 2012 vs. LHP, you are talking about a guy hitting close to .300 with a .332 OBP and an .820 OPS. Plus he can hit the ball 500 feet, and is still very young. There is a lot more there than some of the crap you wanted the White Sox to acquire. I think today is his birthday. You should at least be nice to him on his birthday.

[ILMOU]

He murdered LHP in 2012 and couldn't hit RHP. He improved vs. RHP last year and slipped a bit vs. LHP. It's cherry-picking, but cherry picking is fine when you are looking for anything, but if you take his 2013 vs. RHP and his 2012 vs. LHP, you are talking about a guy hitting close to .300 with a .332 OBP and an .820 OPS. Plus he can hit the ball 500 feet, and is still very young. There is a lot more there than some of the crap you wanted the White Sox to acquire. I think today is his birthday. You should at least be nice to him on his birthday.

 

Happy Birthday Tank!

[hogan873]

He murdered LHP in 2012 and couldn't hit RHP. He improved vs. RHP last year and slipped a bit vs. LHP. It's cherry-picking, but cherry picking is fine when you are looking for anything, but if you take his 2013 vs. RHP and his 2012 vs. LHP, you are talking about a guy hitting close to .300 with a .332 OBP and an .820 OPS. Plus he can hit the ball 500 feet, and is still very young. There is a lot more there than some of the crap you wanted the White Sox to acquire. I think today is his birthday. You should at least be nice to him on his birthday.

The key, obviously, is if he can put it all together for one season. I'd personally like to see the Sox hold onto Viciedo and try to trade De Aza. I doubt Viciedo will ever be a .300 hitter, but I don't think .260 with 25+ HRs annually would be a stretch.

 

If the Sox were to get a good package (better than Saunders) for Viciedo and said package serves the club today and the future, I'd be okay with letting him go.

 

Regardless, I don't see how the Sox won't trade one of Viciedo or De Aza.

[Eminor3rd]

He murdered LHP in 2012 and couldn't hit RHP. He improved vs. RHP last year and slipped a bit vs. LHP. It's cherry-picking, but cherry picking is fine when you are looking for anything, but if you take his 2013 vs. RHP and his 2012 vs. LHP, you are talking about a guy hitting close to .300 with a .332 OBP and an .820 OPS. Plus he can hit the ball 500 feet, and is still very young. There is a lot more there than some of the crap you wanted the White Sox to acquire. I think today is his birthday. You should at least be nice to him on his birthday.

 

But that's the thing with cherry-picking, it's a thing you do when you don't have enough information to get the full picture. With him, we have SO much information, and ALL of it is bad. It's nice that he showed a more neutral platoon split last year, but he was below average against both, so really it was more like he stopped murdering lefties and still hit below average against righties.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible that he breaks out, of course the talent is enticing. I'm just saying we've got tons of objective data showing him fail to make adjustments, so right now everything points to him not being able to reach his potential. And as of today, he's a bad player.

 

I hope he has a great birthday though! He's already a multi-millionaire though, so I can't feel too bad about ragging on him for swinging at bad pitches.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[caulfield12]

Everyone gave Gordon Beckham lots of rope for being injured last season...so we might as well do the same thing with Viciedo.

 

I'm willing to throw in the towel if he has another season more like 2013 than 2012 and he shows no signs of improvement defensively, vis a vis 2013.

 

That said, Michael Saunders is not going to be a starter on the next White Sox playoff team.

 

A lot of impatient people here probably would have given up on Pedro Alvarez and Dominic Brown and dumped them for pennies on the dollar...the odds that Viciedo someday morphs into Jose Bautista or the two names I just mentioned aren't extremely high, but I know that Saunders isn't going to be an offensively cornerstone at USCF. I know that Flowers or Phegley are not everyday MLB catchers.

 

Viciedo, I can't say the same about...

 

And, fwiw, McClendon just named Smoak the starter at 1B for the M's, so that means they're not going to trade him.

 

 

So 300-350 "struggling, under .300 OBP AB's from now, go ahead and trade Viciedo (plus 2+ more minor league pieces) for Franklin and and a struggling Smoak.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

But that's the thing with cherry-picking, it's a thing you do when you don't have enough information to get the full picture. With him, we have SO much information, and ALL of it is bad. It's nice that he showed a more neutral platoon split last year, but he was below average against both, so really it was more like he stopped murdering lefties and still hit below average against righties.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible that he breaks out, of course the talent is enticing. I'm just saying we've got tons of objective data showing him fail to make adjustments, so right now everything points to him not being able to reach his potential. And as of today, he's a bad player.

 

I hope he has a great birthday though! He's already a multi-millionaire though, so I can't feel too bad about ragging on him for swinging at bad pitches.

The guy just turned 25 today. Saying he cannot improve is foolish. There are plenty of examples of people improving at that age.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

The guy just turned 25 today. Saying he cannot improve is foolish. There are plenty of examples of people improving at that age.

 

That's the second paragraph in what you just quoted, where I said he has talent and it isn't impossible for him to improve.

 

But IF HE DOES it will be a complete reversal of everything we know about him. All things are possible, complete HALLELUJAH epiphanies of Zen clarity are uncommon. It's just how it is. It isn't a good bet that a dude with 1200 PAs of ML hackitude just "gets it," because the coaches have been trying to tell him that for years. You can find a few guys, sure, and that's why it is possible. But for every success there are 500 failures. You can beat a straight flush, for example, but the odds aren't on your side, and so it behooves you to cut your losses. That's all I'm saying. If Seattle is going to give us something of value to take our risk off our hands, we should do it, IMO.

 

Not for Michael Saunders though.

[Jose Abreu]

OT: Am I the only one who still wants us to do whatever it takes outside of Sale/Abreu/Garcia to land Giancarlo Stanton?

[BlackSox13]

OT: Am I the only one who still wants us to do whatever it takes outside of Sale/Abreu/Garcia to land Giancarlo Stanton?

I think so. Thing is IF the Marlins made Stanton available there are other teams with plenty more to offer than the Sox have. I'd love to see what kind of numbers Stanton would put up at the Cell but its just not realistic.

[caulfield12]

OT: Am I the only one who still wants us to do whatever it takes outside of Sale/Abreu/Garcia to land Giancarlo Stanton?

 

 

Which means it would be impossible.

 

Even if you made it Quintana, Davidson, Eaton, Viciedo, Ramirez, Beckham and say Beck and Danish, you're going to have to either completely deconstruct the major league roster so much it's pointless to rebuild (since we would be starting a 2nd rebuild on top of the one already in progress)....we should be a team in a position to compete for the playoffs this year with a deep minor league system to pull off such a trade. Our window is 2015 and beyond...probably 2016, but definitely not 2014.

 

We could actually offer our entire minor league system and it wouldn't probably work after the year Hawkins had last season.

Edited March 11, 2014 by caulfield12