elrockinMT Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Viciedo has talent for sure. Maybe Abreu will help him, if he observes and wants to learn. I think of Viciedo and his 25 jacks in 2012 and get excited and then think Josh Fields. Hope he doesn't go downhill like Josh did Edited March 11, 2014 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 QUOTE (southside hitman @ Mar 11, 2014 -> 04:00 PM) Do you believe that Avisail Garcia is going to go through the same struggles? Viciedo actually has a higher walk rate than Garcia does thus far. Yes. Garcia put up a .370 BABIP with the White Sox. He swung at a ton of bad pitches and blooped a lot of them over the 2b in August. In September, he put up numbers that were more "normal" for how he was doing; hit .256 with a .673 OPS. Now to be clear...you don't necessarily have to "take the walk" to be effective at hitting. You can be a free swinger, but you have to do so in areas close to the strike zone or areas where you can actually do damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 11, 2014 -> 04:49 PM) I agree on all points. This site is going to be disappointed with Garcia this year IMO. I like his athleticism and potential for both average and power but I see a .270/.310/.425 type season. Cautiously optimistic is my sentiment. How well each of them does depends on how well each of them learns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 11, 2014 -> 03:35 PM) Yes. Garcia put up a .370 BABIP with the White Sox. He swung at a ton of bad pitches and blooped a lot of them over the 2b in August. In September, he put up numbers that were more "normal" for how he was doing; hit .256 with a .673 OPS. Now to be clear...you don't necessarily have to "take the walk" to be effective at hitting. You can be a free swinger, but you have to do so in areas close to the strike zone or areas where you can actually do damage. Yes! Keep preaching this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 11, 2014 -> 02:54 PM) How well each of them does depends on how well each of them learns. You cannot learn how to teach, until I teach you how to learn. -the Conundrum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 The White Sox organizational hitting motto has to be "If you ain't swingin', you ain't trying." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Viciedo is a perfect fit on a team that is trying to rebuild and are banking on improvement from a just turned 25 year old. If you are in win now mode he is a luxury you cannot afford to play. The guy has this year to prove something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 If Garcia's power doesn't translate, I'd look to move him after a good season. I don't mind free swingers, but I don't like free swingers that are as reliant on speed as he is. He's too big to be able to maintain that speed for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Garcia is in his age 23 season, do we really need to worry about him slowing down anytime soon? Besides, Garcia has proven he can carry a high average in the big leagues, something Viciedo has yet to even sniff. It's one thing to be a 290 hitter with little patience and mediocre power (as Garcia has been so far in his young career), it's another thing entirely to be a 255 hitter with little patience and mediocre power (as Tank has been so far in his young career). Garcia is not Viciedo and Viciedo is not Garcia, don't conflate the value of the two because they appear to have similar lack of patience. Oliver really likes Garcia, projecting him for over 12 WAR over the next 4 years. That's a pretty damn good player, if he has a good season this year trading him should be the farthest thing on Hahn's mind, he should thinking about locking him up long term. Edited March 11, 2014 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Mar 11, 2014 -> 06:43 PM) Garcia is in his age 23 season, do we really need to worry about him slowing down anytime soon? Besides, Garcia has proven he can carry a high average in the big leagues, something Viciedo has yet to even sniff. It's one thing to be a 290 hitter with little patience and mediocre power (as Garcia has been so far in his young career), it's another thing entirely to be a 255 hitter with little patience and mediocre power (as Tank has been so far in his young career). And it's one thing to flip a coin 4 times, have it come up heads 4 times, and declare yourself infallible too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Mar 11, 2014 -> 05:43 PM) Garcia is in his age 23 season, do we really need to worry about him slowing down anytime soon? Besides, Garcia has proven he can carry a high average in the big leagues, something Viciedo has yet to even sniff. It's one thing to be a 290 hitter with little patience and mediocre power (as Garcia has been so far in his young career), it's another thing entirely to be a 255 hitter with little patience and mediocre power (as Tank has been so far in his young career). Garcia is not Viciedo and Viciedo is not Garcia, don't conflate the value of the two because they appear to have similar lack of patience. Oliver really likes Garcia, projecting him for over 12 WAR over the next 4 years. That's a pretty damn good player, if he has a good season this year trading him should be the farthest thing on Hahn's mind, he should thinking about locking him up long term. Garcia has proven he can carry a decent average (.283) over 250 PAs on the strength of a .319 BABIP. And still end up with a 97 wRC+ because of an ugly .309 OBP. Garcia has a ton of improvement to make, both offensively and defensively, to become a good player -- he hasn't "proven" anything. The difference is that he's got 1000 fewer PAs of bad than Viciedo. Basically, he hasn't shown an inability to adjust yet, so we can have more hope with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 06:46 AM) And it's one thing to flip a coin 4 times, have it come up heads 4 times, and declare yourself infallible too. 6.25% chance that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 06:53 AM) Garcia has proven he can carry a decent average (.283) over 250 PAs on the strength of a .319 BABIP. And still end up with a 97 wRC+ because of an ugly .309 OBP. Garcia has a ton of improvement to make, both offensively and defensively, to become a good player -- he hasn't "proven" anything. The difference is that he's got 1000 fewer PAs of bad than Viciedo. Basically, he hasn't shown an inability to adjust yet, so we can have more hope with him. But he also hasn't shown the projected power yet either. Viciedo put up 25+ homers at age 23. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 07:09 AM) But he also hasn't shown the projected power yet either. Viciedo put up 25+ homers at age 23. ...and at age 24, gave us a clinic on how 20% HR/FB is not sustainable. Here is the list of players since 2000 that maintained a HR/FB rate of 20% or greater, min 600 PA: Barry Bonds Manny Ramirez I'm going to go out on a limb and bet you one hundred gazillion dollars that he never reaches that HR/FB rate again over a full season (500+ PA) -- which means that if he's going to get to 25 HR again, he will have to learn how to hit first. Which, consequently, also explains how he was able to hit 25 HR in this offensive environment and still manage a below-league average offensive year overall at 98 wRC+. By the way, I sincerely hope Viciedo has an offensive Renaissance and you guys feed me s*** all season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 10:14 AM) ...and at age 24, gave us a clinic on how 20% HR/FB is not sustainable. Here is the list of players since 2000 that maintained a HR/FB rate of 20% or greater, min 600 PA: Barry Bonds Manny Ramirez I'm going to go out on a limb and bet you one hundred gazillion dollars that he never reaches that HR/FB rate again over a full season (500+ PA) -- which means that if he's going to get to 25 HR again, he will have to learn how to hit first. Which, consequently, also explains how he was able to hit 25 HR in this offensive environment and still manage a below-league average offensive year overall at 98 wRC+. By the way, I sincerely hope Viciedo has an offensive Renaissance and you guys feed me s*** all season. I will only promise this so long as you rub it in our faces when Viciedo s***s the bed again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 6.25% chance that happens. So better than the chance that Viciedo takes a walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 12:11 PM) I will only promise this so long as you rub it in our faces when Viciedo s***s the bed again. I just think the team-wide slump last year exaggerated his struggles. With a possibly more competent group around him and hopefully a more positive attitude team-wide I suspect he will take a nice jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 01:26 PM) I just think the team-wide slump last year exaggerated his struggles. With a possibly more competent group around him and hopefully a more positive attitude team-wide I suspect he will take a nice jump. If the thing he takes from that "more competent group" is "be just the tiniest bit more patient and force the pitcher to try to get you out in the zone", you'll be right. I'd say his season last year was pretty much right what you'd expect given his approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 09:14 AM) ...and at age 24, gave us a clinic on how 20% HR/FB is not sustainable. Here is the list of players since 2000 that maintained a HR/FB rate of 20% or greater, min 600 PA: Barry Bonds Manny Ramirez I'm going to go out on a limb and bet you one hundred gazillion dollars that he never reaches that HR/FB rate again over a full season (500+ PA) -- which means that if he's going to get to 25 HR again, he will have to learn how to hit first. Which, consequently, also explains how he was able to hit 25 HR in this offensive environment and still manage a below-league average offensive year overall at 98 wRC+. By the way, I sincerely hope Viciedo has an offensive Renaissance and you guys feed me s*** all season. Saunders and Ackley and probably a thousand other players do a lot more on a baseball field than Tank ever will. With that said, we need a serious masher aside from Abreu. I don't care how he runs, what he clocks in at, whether he's at all coordinated playing defensively etc. as long as he's young, controllable, and he absolutely f***ing mashes. Viciedo has a much better chance of doing that stuff than those other guys, even though admittedly Tank took a big step backwards and the clock is ticking on him. AND he's getting paid in spite of his lack of production. I see Viciedo as either a DH with us or else he's not on the team. And I think the main points in all this stuff has to be that 1) if you are trading a player you had better be making that move with an eye toward the future, and 2) that whatever moves you make need to be made based on considerations of your young talent ONLY, i.e. you don't make any decisions because of salary or veteran status etc. Meaning Keppinger and Dunn specifically shouldn't be reasons to trade anyone, and if you're going to trade Tank it should be because the FO believes in him the same way EMinor believes in him, i.e. just cash in your chips and go home, start fresh with someone else. And if THAT is the course of action I say let's target prospects, not arb-eligible players and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I also am very optimistic re: the effect that Steverson, Paulie, and Abreu could have on the Sox young hitters this year. And yes I'm including Abreu as a leader in that group because by all accounts he is the Cuban Paulie with regard to preparation and mindset. And Steverson seems like a keeper for sure to me. I love everything that man has said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 12:24 PM) So better than the chance that Viciedo takes a walk. Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 12:26 PM) I just think the team-wide slump last year exaggerated his struggles. With a possibly more competent group around him and hopefully a more positive attitude team-wide I suspect he will take a nice jump. I'd agree with the first part of this for sure. When a team slumps, players are more likely to start looking for their "own" and quit worrying about team oriented things, like taking pitches, moving runners along etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 12:32 PM) If the thing he takes from that "more competent group" is "be just the tiniest bit more patient and force the pitcher to try to get you out in the zone", you'll be right. I'd say his season last year was pretty much right what you'd expect given his approach. Look at the production last year, Konerko had his worst OPS in his career. It was contagious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 12, 2014 -> 01:13 PM) Look at the production last year, Konerko had his worst OPS in his career. It was contagious. Rock, any idea how this roster takes shape? As currently constructed it seems like Keppinger, Catcher, PK, and either Garcia/Danks for bench. Who won't be around in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I think Steverson is the real wild card here with Viciedo. He preaches selectiveness and his experience is working with young players. Whether or not he can get through to him remains to be seen, but I truly believe he is the right man for the job and would like to see him given the opportunity to work with Dayan in 2014. I've said it before, but even small improvements in selectiveness could do wonders for Viciedo's offensive game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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