Teams have interest in Viciedo/De Aza

[RockRaines]

Rock, any idea how this roster takes shape? As currently constructed it seems like Keppinger, Catcher, PK, and either Garcia/Danks for bench. Who won't be around in your opinion?

I think Garcia starts in RF everyday.

 

To me, Semien is the best utility guy we could have on the bench. Danks isnt an MLB player in my eyes.

[Eminor3rd]

I think Steverson is the real wild card here with Viciedo. He preaches selectiveness and his experience is working with young players. Whether or not he can get through to him remains to be seen, but I truly believe he is the right man for the job and would like to see him given the opportunity to work with Dayan in 2014. I've said it before, but even small improvements in selectiveness could do wonders for Viciedo's offensive game.

 

This is, IMO, the best reason for hope for both Viciedo and Garcia. Sort of like a change of scenery came to them instead of the other way around. Maybe this dude gets through to them -- it's refreshing, at least, to see Hahn making a good assessment of the type of message his hitters need. It at least shows that he has a good grasp of his team. Seems like there are several front offices that don't have a clue.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I think Garcia starts in RF everyday.

 

To me, Semien is the best utility guy we could have on the bench. Danks isnt an MLB player in my eyes.

 

 

I meant Leury Garcia. He should be on the roster in my opinion.

[Balta1701]

This is, IMO, the best reason for hope for both Viciedo and Garcia. Sort of like a change of scenery came to them instead of the other way around. Maybe this dude gets through to them -- it's refreshing, at least, to see Hahn making a good assessment of the type of message his hitters need. It at least shows that he has a good grasp of his team. Seems like there are several front offices that don't have a clue.

One of my worries coming into this season is that since Garcia actually hit "well" in Chicago he won't feel like he needs to change his approach at all.

[Eminor3rd]

One of my worries coming into this season is that since Garcia actually hit "well" in Chicago he won't feel like he needs to change his approach at all.

 

You and me both. This was on my mind a lot at the end of last season, but it seemed cruel to rain on everyone's parade by whining about it on here, since we all had so little to be excited about.

 

Unfortunately, it might be that he has to crash for a couple months first before he's willing to really listen much. I'm jsut as worried that HE thinks he needs to change nothing than the management.

[Chicago White Sox]

This is, IMO, the best reason for hope for both Viciedo and Garcia. Sort of like a change of scenery came to them instead of the other way around. Maybe this dude gets through to them -- it's refreshing, at least, to see Hahn making a good assessment of the type of message his hitters need. It at least shows that he has a good grasp of his team. Seems like there are several front offices that don't have a clue.

I'm hopeful that the Steverson hiring is the first step in an orgnazition-wide hitting philosophy. Doesn't have to be as extreme as the Oakland A's Moneyball-era philosophy either, but simply determine the high-level traits you want in a hitter and start coaching them toward those goals at a young age. Obviously every player is different, but I think it's pretty clear that even a naturally aggressive hitter like Viciedo should have spent more time working on his selectiveness in the minors even if he was otherwise successful offensively. Now he's facing really good pitching and is forced to make significant adjustments to his approach at the major league and that is usually a recipe for failure. Preach the right traits, coach them early, and hopefully you avoid extended growing pains and have less prospects ultimately flop.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I think it is a positive sign that Thompson and Mitchell were optioned to AA striaght away rather than Charlotte. Make them earn the promotion there and if they hit Chicago this year make it be the result of high performance at 2 different levels. No more Buddy Bell Challenge Promotions please. They are incredibly stupid.

[Eminor3rd]

I'm hopeful that the Steverson hiring is the first step in an orgnazition-wide hitting philosophy. Doesn't have to be as extreme as the Oakland A's Moneyball-era philosophy either, but simply determine the high-level traits you want in a hitter and start coaching them toward those goals at a young age. Obviously every player is different, but I think it's pretty clear that even a naturally aggressive hitter like Viciedo should have spent more time working on his selectiveness in the minors even if he was otherwise successful offensively. Now he's facing really good pitching and is forced to make significant adjustments to his approach at the major league and that is usually a recipe for failure. Preach the right traits, coach them early, and hopefully you avoid extended growing pains and have less prospects ultimately flop.

 

The problem is he was hitting well in AAA. I think it's hard to get a guy to commit to a change when he's seeing success with his bad habits.

[Balta1701]

The problem is he was hitting well in AAA. I think it's hard to get a guy to commit to a change when he's seeing success with his bad habits.

Actually, I could easily have convinced myself that Viciedo would benefit from another year at AAA. In 2011, he missed a portion of the year after being hit by a ball in ST, that bothered him the whole year, he was put through the "position switch" ringer again in 2011, and he didn't really "destroy" the ball in 2011 like he seemed like you'd want at AAA at his age.

 

He kinda got called up because the 2011 team fell completely flat on its face and the team cut back on payroll in 2012, stepping back after an "all-in" season. It made sense to give him at bats to start 2012 because the team wasn't doing the "all-in" thing again and having him enabled them to move a guy who was a year away from FA that the Sox weren't going to keep (Quentin).

 

If you were putting together the perfect way to develop him, or the perfect way to put a competitive team on the field, you'd probably have given him another year at AAA and used someone else in the OF, but neither of those were the case.

[ILMOU]

You and me both. This was on my mind a lot at the end of last season, but it seemed cruel to rain on everyone's parade by whining about it on here, since we all had so little to be excited about.

 

Unfortunately, it might be that he has to crash for a couple months first before he's willing to really listen much. I'm jsut as worried that HE thinks he needs to change nothing than the management.

I'll third this. At least he's very young and can work through it in time, if he's committed.

[caulfield12]

The problem is he was hitting well in AAA. I think it's hard to get a guy to commit to a change when he's seeing success with his bad habits.

 

See Gordon Beckham, but particularly Brian Anderson and Josh Fields.

[glangon]

Dear Seattle,

 

Please will you trade James Paxton for Dayan Viciedo.

 

If you need more outfielders, we can throw in Keenyn Walker, Jared Mitchell and Trayce Thompson.

If you need more pitchers, we can throw in Deunte Heath, Nestor Molina and Dylan Axelrod.

 

yours hopingly

 

Rick Hahn

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Dear Seattle,

 

Please will you trade James Paxton for Dayan Viciedo.

 

If you need more outfielders, we can throw in Keenyn Walker, Jared Mitchell and Trayce Thompson.

If you need more pitchers, we can throw in Deunte Heath, Nestor Molina and Dylan Axelrod.

 

yours hopingly

 

Rick Hahn

 

Thanks to injuries (Iwakuma, Walker), it looks like they need James Paxton in the OD rotation much more than they need Viciedo, unfortunately.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Dear Seattle,

 

Please will you trade James Paxton for Dayan Viciedo.

 

If you need more outfielders, we can throw in Keenyn Walker, Jared Mitchell and Trayce Thompson.

If you need more pitchers, we can throw in Deunte Heath, Nestor Molina and Dylan Axelrod.

 

yours hopingly

 

Rick Hahn

Funny thing is, if you actually play the guy this year and he turns things around you can realistically get a very large return should you (Hahn) still believe his game/style/approach/agent/arb situation/whatever doesn't quite fit into the long-term picture.

 

Dunn OTOH brings back nothing at any point, so if you don't get a solid deal for DeAza and if you don't get a very good deal for Viciedo then assuming you (Hahn) are not a completely incompetent fool, you dump Dunn and keep the guys who could actually bring some worthwhile players back.

 

Pitt still needs a LH bat complement, they can have Dunn at $1M for a relief spect and an international bonus slot.

 

Otherwise per MLBTR the Marlins according to a source might consider trading Jacob Turner for the right fit. Not sure Tank is that fit but he is a Cuban, and a deal involving pieces like that should be the type of deal you look for when considering dumping Tank. Unless of course all your best guys (Steverson more so than Bell hopefully) believe Tank is what he is and no improvements are coming. But I doubt that.

Edited March 13, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[witesoxfan]

Funny thing is, if you actually play the guy this year and he turns things around you can realistically get a very large return should you (Hahn) still believe his game/style/approach/agent/arb situation/whatever doesn't quite fit into the long-term picture.

 

Dunn OTOH brings back nothing at any point, so if you don't get a solid deal for DeAza and if you don't get a very good deal for Viciedo then assuming you (Hahn) are not a completely incompetent fool, you dump Dunn and keep the guys who could actually bring some worthwhile players back.

 

Pitt still needs a LH bat complement, they can have Dunn at $1M for a relief spect and an international bonus slot.

 

Otherwise per MLBTR the Marlins according to a source might consider trading Jacob Turner for the right fit. Not sure Tank is that fit but he is a Cuban, and a deal involving pieces like that should be the type of deal you look for when considering dumping Tank. Unless of course all your best guys (Steverson more so than Bell hopefully) believe Tank is what he is and no improvements are coming. But I doubt that.

 

So Dunn has no value, but Viciedo somehow does. As you say, the teams can see the stats.

[The Ultimate Champion]

So Dunn has no value, but Viciedo somehow does. As you say, the teams can see the stats.

If Jack Z called up Hahn and offered Ackley straight up for Dunn Hahn wouldn't have countered with Franklin he'd have countered with delirious shouts of joy and a massive coke party f*** fest MCed by Paul Konerko himself.

[witesoxfan]

If Jack Z called up Hahn and offered Ackley straight up for Dunn Hahn wouldn't have countered with Franklin he'd have countered with delirious shouts of joy and a massive coke party f*** fest MCed by Paul Konerko himself.

 

Yeah, that's true, but that's primarily due to the contract. I just don't see where you get off thinking that Viciedo has a lot of value. The Sox don't need to trade him, given the investment they've made, but he has not been good.

[glangon]

It was probably a tongue in cheek quote but it may be something he considers in June when both Walker and Iwakuma return and if Tank possibly starts hitting, then who knows....

 

TBH, apart from Paxton, Seattle really doesn't have much else that we'd be interested (maybe Zunino but I really don't see them letting him go.)

 

For all the talk of Franklin, we have a log jam behind Beckham, awaiting him to be traded/released.

 

Saunders would be a backward step. Why trade a promising young player for an older, not much better model. It goes against Hahn's philosophy.

 

I think we may be keeping Viciedo unless Hahn can pull a super-deal or a three-way deal with perhaps the Mets.

[Dick Allen]

If Jack Z called up Hahn and offered Ackley straight up for Dunn Hahn wouldn't have countered with Franklin he'd have countered with delirious shouts of joy and a massive coke party f*** fest MCed by Paul Konerko himself.

If he did that you are correct, but Jack Z is a big fan of Ackley and didn't offer Ackley straight up for Tank either. I can guarantee that.

[ILMOU]

Yeah, that's true, but that's primarily due to the contract. I just don't see where you get off thinking that Viciedo has a lot of value. The Sox don't need to trade him, given the investment they've made, but he has not been good.

Call me crazy, but the Trumbo trade gives me hope for Tanks possible value, without requiring miraculous improvement.

[Dick Allen]

Call me crazy, but the Trumbo trade gives me hope for Tanks possible value, without requiring miraculous improvement.

Carlos Lee was very much like Tank. He didn't walk much, had a few more hits, but put up an OPS+ right around average until he turned 26. Tank is never going to walk a ton, but he still can learn to layoff pitches he can't hit hard. Maybe he won't, but I don't get how anyone can conclude a just turned 25 year old cannot.

[Eminor3rd]

Carlos Lee was very much like Tank. He didn't walk much, had a few more hits, but put up an OPS+ right around average until he turned 26. Tank is never going to walk a ton, but he still can learn to layoff pitches he can't hit hard. Maybe he won't, but I don't get how anyone can conclude a just turned 25 year old cannot.

 

Carlos Lee's O-Swing was substantially above average -- it never exceeded 25% when he was with the White Sox and was more typically around 22%. Again, Diane Visiendo's was always worse than average, has gotten worse each year, and was 42.5% last year. Lee swung at an astonishing 20% fewer bad pitches than Tank did last year.

 

This is what Balta was saying -- it isn't about the walks, it's about the selectivity.

[Dick Allen]

Carlos Lee's O-Swing was substantially above average -- it never exceeded 25% when he was with the White Sox and was more typically around 22%. Again, Diane Visiendo's was always worse than average, has gotten worse each year, and was 42.5% last year. Lee swung at an astonishing 20% fewer bad pitches than Tank did last year.

 

This is what Balta was saying -- it isn't about the walks, it's about the selectivity.

Where do you get the O-Swing for his first 3 years? Fangraphs only has it starting in 2002.

[GallonsOfSemien]

Carlos Lee's thighs remind me of David Viciendo's thighs... Thick, muscular, good for hours of "laborous" endeavors...

[Princess Dye]

Carlos Lee's thighs remind me of David Viciendo's thighs... Thick, muscular, good for hours of "laborous" endeavors...

 

It's possible you'll be an asset here but it'll be an uphill climb from this