Tyler Flowers is your 2014 starting catcher

[Marty34]

^^

 

Wow, just, wow!

 

Another thread absolutely destroyed. I'm calling the NSA and letting them know there are terrorists among us that are using Weapons of Moronic Destruction to destroy threads here at SoxTalk.

 

I need to quote fangraphs more.

[caulfield12]

On the other side, Hahn has take a lot of risk out of his acquisitions by acquiring guys that are major league ready as they have at least ML level floors.

 

He traded Peavy and received a ML ready talent in Garcia two lottery tickets in Montas a guy that projects as at least a high leverage reliever, and glove first SS and a third guy that has a chance to be a bullpen guy.

He dumped almost $20M of Rios' deal for a super UT player. Not a great return, but it freed up money for Abreu.

He turned a back end of the rotation starter and a guy that was going to be moved off the 40 man roster into a cost controlled lead off hitter that was a top 100 prospect before his injury last season.

He turned a soon to be expensive closer into another top 100 prospect.

He ran one of the best drafts in baseball last season as the Sox pulled in several guys (Engel, May, Mitchell, and Goldberg) who already showing good potential and the ability to move fast through the system.

He signed the best power prospect in the international July 2 class.

 

It would have been nice to grab Tanaka, but you can't financially hamstring the franchise to take a chance on a guy that has never played in the majors. I can not think of any really poor moves Hahn has made. He is setting up this team to produce its own talent, and when they are close to competing he has left the team the financial flexibility to fill in any gaps at that time.

 

 

 

Santiago's going to be a lot better than Paulino/Rienzo/Surkamp, etc. I wouldn't define him as a 5 starter or Clayton Richard quite yet with his K/IP strikeout ability.

[2nd_city_saint787]

If that were the case why did they specifically target Major League ready prospects. The point of taking a lesser prospect because they are closer to the majors is to shorten the rebuilding process. If they were going to cut ~$35M in payroll they should have just targeted the best prospects period.

 

Adam Eaton was the 48th ranked prospect last year, Davidson is the 78th ranked prospect this year, and Garcia was the 74th ranked prospect in 2012 (He would have ranked higher the next year had he not "graduated').

 

You act as though these "lesser" prospects are all, well, "lesser prospect", when in reality they are really good prospects. What did you expect them to get in return?

 

Yes, they shortened the rebuild process, but it's still on going, this isn't a team that's a SP a way from contending. Let these youngsters get their feet wet this year, see where they are with guys like Beck and Bassit next year and if they feel they need a SP they'll have money to do so. You can't deny that they're at the very least moving in the right direction.

[caulfield12]

We could have traded our entire farm system for Buxton and Sano and we'd be a lot worse off than we are now with Eaton/Garcia/Abreu/Davidson/Hawkins...

 

Some posters here constantly want to put all of our eggs in one basket with "swing and miss" free agents like Greinke, Pujols or Josh Hamilton just to pacify the fans.

 

Or they want to turn around and do the opposite, which is take our one true superstar and turn him into 3-5 lottery tickets...the kind of trade that goes against you 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Edited March 22, 2014 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Adam Eaton was the 48th ranked prospect last year, Davidson is the 78th ranked prospect this year, and Garcia was the 74th ranked prospect in 2012 (He would have ranked higher the next year had he not "graduated').

 

You act as though these "lesser" prospects are all, well, "lesser prospect", when in reality they are really good prospects. What did you expect them to get in return?

 

Yes, they shortened the rebuild process, but it's still on going, this isn't a team that's a SP a way from contending. Let these youngsters get their feet wet this year, see where they are with guys like Beck and Bassit next year and if they feel they need a SP they'll have money to do so. You can't deny that they're at the very least moving in the right direction.

 

 

All prospects not in the Top 25 are likely busts.

[BlackSox13]

If that were the case why did they specifically target Major League ready prospects. The point of taking a lesser prospect because they are closer to the majors is to shorten the rebuilding process. If they were going to cut ~$35M in payroll they should have just targeted the best prospects period.

Well Mr. Pessimism. The third pick in each round is a great way to infuse good young talent into the farm and this is possible because they did NOT waste money on free agents that would cost them picks. Ironic you complain about the Sox not acquiring younger talent for the farm yet you were wiling to give away draft picks for free agents that would not have made the team a contender in the first place.

 

Outside of Sale what the hell have the Sox had that would net a teams best young prospects? Certainly not Peavy, Rios, Reed or Santiago so tell me how YOU would have made this happen. Give me some realistic trades the Sox could have made to get younger prospects that weren't major league ready talent, then try to explain how you wouldn't be b****ing now about how the sox should have traded for major league ready talent. What I'm saying is you would be complaining no matter what, hence why I say you're pessimistic. Nothing pleases you.

 

I need to quote fangraphs more.

Nice try, I only pay attention to the usual stats that have been around for decades. I know squat about fangraphs,sabermetrics etc so try that somewhere else. I'm not saying those aren't useful, just never bothered is all.

[Eminor3rd]

If that were the case why did they specifically target Major League ready prospects. The point of taking a lesser prospect because they are closer to the majors is to shorten the rebuilding process. If they were going to cut ~$35M in payroll they should have just targeted the best prospects period.

 

You bolded the line in my quote that is the answer. They can buy young prospects, they cannot buy MLB breakout candidates. They got the guys they wanted. No one, anywhere, at all think the Sox lost any of the trades they made. Try to find one.

[caulfield12]

You bolded the line in my quote that is the answer. They can buy young prospects, they cannot buy MLB breakout candidates. They got the guys they wanted. No one, anywhere, at all think the Sox lost any of the trades they made. Try to find one.

 

 

I'm not sure that Eaton will end up better than Santiago, but they had no other choice...and this assumes that Quintana was always in their long-term plans for a contract extension and they weren't willing to part with him.

 

Wait. They should have signed Erwin Santana and then bartered him at midseason for Eaton! DOH!!!

Edited March 22, 2014 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

If that were the case why did they specifically target Major League ready prospects. The point of taking a lesser prospect because they are closer to the majors is to shorten the rebuilding process. If they were going to cut ~$35M in payroll they should have just targeted the best prospects period.

 

[They didn't]

[Feeky Magee]

The only return to be in any way disappointed over was Leury Garcia for Alex Rios, with Rios probably being a 3+ WAR player these days, but that was due to it being done on waivers after the trade deadline. It's likely the market just wasn't there for him because of his 2009 and 2011, although there were rumours of Hahn overplaying his hand and asking for Profar/high Pirates prospects. Either way, he more than made up for it with the Eaton and Davidson trades, Eaton in particular could be an enormous steal.

[caulfield12]

The only return to be in any way disappointed over was Leury Garcia for Alex Rios, with Rios probably being a 3+ WAR player these days, but that was due to it being done on waivers after the trade deadline. It's likely the market just wasn't there for him because of his 2009 and 2011, although there were rumours of Hahn overplaying his hand and asking for Profar/high Pirates prospects. Either way, he more than made up for it with the Eaton and Davidson trades, Eaton in particular could be an enormous steal.

 

 

 

Other GM's knew he wasn't in our long-term plans, and he certainly has a number of negatives attached to him...his sometimes surly relationship with fans, his "aloofness" on the field especially when things aren't going well, the 2009 and 2011 seasons, the fact that we still had to give them $1 million, etc.

 

It turned out a lot better than it looked like after 2011, when we had around $35 million or so still due on his contract.

 

Or just look at the situation with Nelson Cruz, how long it took him to find a job and the lower salary he's receiving.

 

 

It's easy to say we should have gotten the Pirates or Cardinals or whatever team to accept our Rios deal...but we often never know exactly what was offered, so while it's nice to argue that Hahn turned down, say, Tabata or Carlos Martinez or Wong, it's all conjecture.

Edited March 22, 2014 by caulfield12

[StillMissOzzie]

I certainly understand the Sox not dropping any serious coin for a catcher if the assumption is that they will not contend in 2014. I still wish that this process did not include doubling Flowers' salary for his terrific 2013 season. But - what if it is June 1 and it turns out that Flowers' 2013 season was not just injury-plagued, but essentially his true average? I see a sea of green seats if the C spot is still a black hole and this issue does not get addressed.

 

SMO

[caulfield12]

I certainly understand the Sox not dropping any serious coin for a catcher if the assumption is that they will not contend in 2014. I still wish that this process did not include doubling Flowers' salary for his terrific 2013 season. But - what if it is June 1 and it turns out that Flowers' 2013 season was not just injury-plagued, but essentially his true average? I see a sea of green seats if the C spot is still a black hole and this issue does not get addressed.

SMO

 

Is that like the G-spot?

 

The empty seats will be there regardless...even if we'd signed McCann...if the team is below .500.

 

It wouldn't matter if we went to a lab with Agent Coulson and plotted the reincarnation of Pudge Fisk and Pudge Rodriguez, with a pinch of Johnny Bench thrown in for good measure.

Edited March 22, 2014 by caulfield12

[Feeky Magee]

Other GM's knew he wasn't in our long-term plans, and he certainly has a number of negatives attached to him...his sometimes surly relationship with fans, his "aloofness" on the field especially when things aren't going well, the 2009 and 2011 seasons, the fact that we still had to give them $1 million, etc.

 

It turned out a lot better than it looked like after 2011, when we had around $35 million or so still due on his contract.

 

Or just look at the situation with Nelson Cruz, how long it took him to find a job and the lower salary he's receiving.

 

 

It's easy to say we should have gotten the Pirates or Cardinals or whatever team to accept our Rios deal...but we often never know exactly what was offered, so while it's nice to argue that Hahn turned down, say, Tabata or Carlos Martinez or Wong, it's all conjecture.

Sure, and it's not like I'm saying he did badly or whatever, as I said it was probably market-dictated rather than a Hahn misstep, I'm just saying that it's the only deal that you could make the argument for the other side coming out on top.

[Marty34]

Well Mr. Pessimism. The third pick in each round is a great way to infuse good young talent into the farm and this is possible because they did NOT waste money on free agents that would cost them picks. Ironic you complain about the Sox not acquiring younger talent for the farm yet you were wiling to give away draft picks for free agents that would not have made the team a contender in the first place.

 

Outside of Sale what the hell have the Sox had that would net a teams best young prospects? Certainly not Peavy, Rios, Reed or Santiago so tell me how YOU would have made this happen. Give me some realistic trades the Sox could have made to get younger prospects that weren't major league ready talent, then try to explain how you wouldn't be b****ing now about how the sox should have traded for major league ready talent. What I'm saying is you would be complaining no matter what, hence why I say you're pessimistic. Nothing pleases you.

 

 

Nice try, I only pay attention to the usual stats that have been around for decades. I know squat about fangraphs,sabermetrics etc so try that somewhere else. I'm not saying those aren't useful, just never bothered is all.

 

You're buying into the hype machine that MLB has started to create. An MLB draft pick isn't worthless, but it damn near is to a franchise that pulls in the revenue the Sox do. It is a great cover to give a fan base for not to spending money in free agency.

 

There's something incongruous to targeting prospects in trades that are well past the midpoint in their development while in the same breath talking up the value of keeping draft picks.

[GreenSox]

There's something incongruous to targeting prospects in trades that are well past the midpoint in their development while in the same breath talking up the value of keeping draft picks.

Actually, it's very consistent. You're trying to restock your farm system to maintain competitiveness, while getting at least competitive on the ML level and not tanking it up (Astros and Pirates and Royals for a decade).

You aren't winning anything in this era without a vibrant farm system.

[Eminor3rd]

You're buying into the hype machine that MLB has started to create. An MLB draft pick isn't worthless, but it damn near is to a franchise that pulls in the revenue the Sox do. It is a great cover to give a fan base for not to spending money in free agency.

 

There's something incongruous to targeting prospects in trades that are well past the midpoint in their development while in the same breath talking up the value of keeping draft picks.

 

The bolded line in your post above is so demonstrably, factually wrong that I am again wondering if you are aware of what sport this board is dedicated to following.

 

As to the final sentence, I'll repeat this again since you didn't read it the first time:

 

It's about infusing talent at all levels of the system.

 

Again:

 

It's about infusing talent at all levels of the system

 

There is nothing "incongruous" about it -- throwing all your eggs into a single high-variability basket is a huge risk that is not likely to work, at least according to recent precedent (see Royals, Mets, Blue Jays). See also the concept of using organizational depth to fill bigger organizational holes (pitchers to position players). See also the concept of selling high (many factors point to Santiago as a HUGE regression candidate, namely low HR/FB rate, high strand rate, and a FIP nearly a run higher than his ERA) and buying low (Eaton coming of an injury-riddled season where his fairly substantial hype had deflated).

 

It's not FanGraphs, it's f***ing logic.

 

It's about infusing talent at all levels of the system.

[southsider2k5]

I certainly understand the Sox not dropping any serious coin for a catcher if the assumption is that they will not contend in 2014. I still wish that this process did not include doubling Flowers' salary for his terrific 2013 season. But - what if it is June 1 and it turns out that Flowers' 2013 season was not just injury-plagued, but essentially his true average? I see a sea of green seats if the C spot is still a black hole and this issue does not get addressed.

 

SMO

 

They tried to address it. There really wasn't a good solution.

[southsider2k5]

You're buying into the hype machine that MLB has started to create. An MLB draft pick isn't worthless, but it damn near is to a franchise that pulls in the revenue the Sox do. It is a great cover to give a fan base for not to spending money in free agency.

 

There's something incongruous to targeting prospects in trades that are well past the midpoint in their development while in the same breath talking up the value of keeping draft picks.

 

Which is why the largest teams in baseball spent as much as possible on the draft when they got the chance to do so.

[Marty34]

You bolded the line in my quote that is the answer. They can buy young prospects, they cannot buy MLB breakout candidates. They got the guys they wanted. No one, anywhere, at all think the Sox lost any of the trades they made. Try to find one.

 

Winning the trades isn't enough. Did they assemble the core of the next championship team by virtue of these trades. That was the fall back plan in keeping the team together last year. By trading Peavy, Rios, Floyd, etc... they would be able to quickly rebuild. I don't Leury Garcia is what they had in mind for Rios, but maybe the rest of the guys they got will make up for him.

 

What is the ETA of this rebuild?

[BlackSox13]

You're buying into the hype machine that MLB has started to create. An MLB draft pick isn't worthless, but it damn near is to a franchise that pulls in the revenue the Sox do. It is a great cover to give a fan base for not to spending money in free agency.

 

There's something incongruous to targeting prospects in trades that are well past the midpoint in their development while in the same breath talking up the value of keeping draft picks.

Hype machine?

 

I've been a sox for over 40 years and the value of youthful talent has always been there and even more valuable now with players costing so much money. The Sox are trying to do what the Cardinals have been doing and that's drafting , scoutng and player development. This is how you maintain success on the fly, by having talent ready for a call up when a player goes down to injury or lose a player to FA. A team can always fall back on free agents to plug a few holes there may be but for the most part the farm keeps the mlb team fed with talent.

 

Everyone knows the sox have not done a good job in scouting, drafting and player development and that's what Hahn is changing and its a great time to take advantage of high draft picks in the best draft the last 3-5 years, at least that's what is being said.

 

So I ask the question once again. You wanted more not ready mlb talent for the minors so how do the Sox do that if they give away draft picks by signing free agents that won't make this team a contender? I'll also ask just one more time, besides Sale, who could the have traded to get the talent you complain about the Sox lack in?

 

The fact you didn't answer those questions shows just how pessimistic you really are. Complaining for the sake of complaining, how sad.

Edited March 22, 2014 by StRoostifer

[Eminor3rd]

Winning the trades isn't enough. Did they assemble the core of the next championship team by virtue of these trades. That was the fall back plan in keeping the team together last year. By trading Peavy, Rios, Floyd, etc... they would be able to quickly rebuild. I don't Leury Garcia is what they had in mind for Rios, but maybe the rest of the guys they got will make up for him.

 

What is the ETA of this rebuild?

 

It will of course depend on how these young guys play this year, but I can tell you the ETA is a LOT closer than the models that the Cubs, Astros, Marlins, etc. have been employing. I mean look at the Cubs: they're on year three and we're arguably just as far along in year one. We have less ammo in the lower minors, but there's no reason to believe we won't continue to acquire it via the draft and international market this season and next.

[Dick Allen]

It will of course depend on how these young guys play this year, but I can tell you the ETA is a LOT closer than the models that the Cubs, Astros, Marlins, etc. have been employing. I mean look at the Cubs: they're on year three and we're arguably just as far along in year one. We have less ammo in the lower minors, but there's no reason to believe we won't continue to acquire it via the draft and international market this season and next.

If the Sox and Cubs switched prospects, there is no doubt the Cubs current prospects would be more highly thought of here. I hope Hahn wasn't being serious about taking a lower bonus guy with the 3rd pick just to have additional money for lower picks. The one nice thing you get with being awful is the chance to perhaps draft a future star. If you aren't taking the best player on your board with the 3rd pick of the draft, it makes no sense to me.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Marty34]

Hype machine?

 

I've been a sox for over 40 years and the value of youthful talent has always been there and even more valuable now with players costing so much money. The Sox are trying to do what the Cardinals have been doing and that's drafting , scoutng and player development. This is how you maintain success on the fly, by having talent ready for a call up when a player goes down to injury or lose a player to FA. A team can always fall back on free agents to plug a few holes there may be but for the most part the farm keeps the mlb team fed with talent.

 

Everyone knows the sox have not done a good job in scouting, drafting and player development and that's what Hahn is changing and its a great time to take advantage of high draft picks in the best draft the last 3-5 years, at least that's what is being said.

 

So I ask the question once again. You wanted more not ready mlb talent for the minors so how do the Sox do that if they give away draft picks by signing free agents that won't make this team a contender? I'll also ask just one more time, besides Sale, who could the have traded to get the talent you complain about the Sox lack in?

 

The fact you didn't answer those questions shows just how pessimistic you really are. Complaining for the sake of complaining, how sad.

 

Why is dealing Sale not a good option? He is one of the most valuable assets in MLB and his shelf life is an ongoing concern. Going through a rebuild with him is a very risky strategy. Put the best team around him and try to make the playoffs every year you have him because Sale in a short series is an advantage few teams can match.

[Marty34]

It will of course depend on how these young guys play this year, but I can tell you the ETA is a LOT closer than the models that the Cubs, Astros, Marlins, etc. have been employing. I mean look at the Cubs: they're on year three and we're arguably just as far along in year one. We have less ammo in the lower minors, but there's no reason to believe we won't continue to acquire it via the draft and international market this season and next.

 

You like the Sox core better than the Cubs core?