Marty34 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 03:43 PM) We're on the same page on nearly all of this. Our dispute is regarding the "sense of urgency" you seem to think we're lacking, myself believing they've shown plenty of it, just not wanting to cross the line from urgency into "all-in" style desperation. Hahn's trying to build something more sustainable, but still very quickly in the grand scheme of rebuilds. We both believe Sale gives us a much better chance in a short series - that's one of the main reasons I'm in the camp of not trading him. Maybe you'll feel better about it after JR ponies up to fill the remaining holes next offseason - I really think that's the general "plan". This year is about building the system, short (Davidson), medium (the draft), and long-term (LA 16 y.o.'s), to augment a competitive 25 man, while evaluating needs and seeing what can be gained in trades of those that don't fit the profile, or are deemed redundant. And midseason moves (I'll predict a JCastro, Grandal, or GSanchez acquisition) could bring us a lot closer to the finish line. I think the short-term road map to a World Series for the Sox is having the most dominating starter (Sale) in the playoffs. I think it is extremely risky to try to build something sustainable around him given the length of time it will take because of the general fragility of pitching. I probably would feel differently if he wasn't locked into an amazingly team-friendly deal, but the worse case scenario for this franchise is he gets hurt during the rebuild. If we are waiting on Beck, Bassit, etc, we could be dangerously close to frittering away one of the best assets in MLB today - Chris Sale and his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 04:19 PM) I will happily answer your question once you've answered the two questions I have already asked twice. Otherwise I'm done with attempting to have a discussion with someone that only wants to point out or in some cases even make up things to complain about. Your question can't be answered. I only know that (according to reports) the Sox were looking for Major League ready prospects in their trades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 (edited) Hey Well stated. I agree that Olt can play defense and he has proven that. There is n ot any reason to send him down. As a rebuilding team, you must play a rookie when he is ready and let him learn via experience. Olt already spent a year at AAA. If they send him down it would be a financial savings so that they get more in a trade. I say risk he is the long term solution to the third base problem. Baez and Bryant should be the left fielder and right fielder respectivly. ALOMAR (Almora) IN CENTER AND YOU HAVE YOUR STARTERS TO GO WITH rIZZO AT FIRST, aLCANTARA OR Villaneva at 2nd with Castro at SS and Olt at third. Play them soon at quit trying to save money while it costs the cubs more in lost revenue in sold tickets, and TV attendance. Cub fans are tired of ownership pretending they are making choices for the best interest of the team vs the owners wallet. Sound familiar? Some Cubs' idiot wants to move Baez from 2B/SS, well, just because he wants to see him play NOW. If the White Sox had a bunch of prospects in Winston-Salem and Birmingham, that same fan would be asking for Hawkins to be starting for the team in 2015. At least no mention of Soler, haha. There's a flaw in his plan. Must have prospects at every position!!! Of course, this fan probably doesn't have any plan to address the Cubs' ongoing pitching issues, what to do with Smardizja and Edwin Jackson, etc. And moving players all over the place (Bryant in the outfield, Baez at 2B/SS/3B) is very reminiscent of what happened with the White Sox being in "win now" mode and putting Beckham and Viciedo through numerous position changes. Not wise. Olt's an interesting case, a lot like what the White Sox are dealing with Gillaspie as a position holder for 2+ months, although Olt was once a big-time prospect and probably still has a tad more value than Conor on the trade market. Edited March 23, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 01:46 PM) I like Abreu and Sale much more than any players in the Cubs franchise. I like Eaton and Semien slightly more than I like Castro and Rizzo. I like Bryant, Baez, and Soler much more than I like Anderson, Hawkins, and Thompson. I think the Cubs have more high ceiling talent in the low to mid minors, but I think we have more talent in the upper minors and at the ML level, which is why I think our window is as close or closer. You didn't mention Avisail . But of course you have to mention him weather you like him or not . And I know you don't . You have to admit he has a s***load of upside.He's big strong and fast . He is the our Mike Trout. He has that much potential. Yeah,yeah yeah... O swing schmo swing. Trying not to be dismissive of your concerns since you make every effort to be fair in your arguments. But geez if you're gonna point out every potential flaw in every prospects repetoire it gets tedious . Will he ever realize that huge potential ? I don't know but it will be fun and frustrating watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 10:47 PM) Hey Well stated. I agree that Olt can play defense and he has proven that. There is n ot any reason to send him down. As a rebuilding team, you must play a rookie when he is ready and let him learn via experience. Olt already spent a year at AAA. If they send him down it would be a financial savings so that they get more in a trade. I say risk he is the long term solution to the third base problem. Baez and Bryant should be the left fielder and right fielder respectivly. ALOMAR (Almora) IN CENTER AND YOU HAVE YOUR STARTERS TO GO WITH rIZZO AT FIRST, aLCANTARA OR Villaneva at 2nd with Castro at SS and Olt at third. Play them soon at quit trying to save money while it costs the cubs more in lost revenue in sold tickets, and TV attendance. Cub fans are tired of ownership pretending they are making choices for the best interest of the team vs the owners wallet. Sound familiar? Some Cubs' idiot wants to move Baez from 2B/SS, well, just because he wants to see him play NOW. If the White Sox had a bunch of prospects in Winston-Salem and Birmingham, that same fan would be asking for Hawkins to be starting for the team in 2015. At least no mention of Soler, haha. There's a flaw in his plan. Must have prospects at every position!!! Of course, this fan probably doesn't have any plan to address the Cubs' ongoing pitching issues, what to do with Smardizja and Edwin Jackson, etc. And moving players all over the place (Bryant in the outfield, Baez at 2B/SS/3B) is very reminiscent of what happened with the White Sox being in "win now" mode and putting Beckham and Viciedo through numerous position changes. Not wise. Olt's an interesting case, a lot like what the White Sox are dealing with Gillaspie as a position holder for 2+ months, although Olt was once a big-time prospect and probably still has a tad more value than Conor on the trade market. Olt's ceiling is way higher than Connor. The only thing that stopped Olt were the concussion problems. If not for that, the kid never leaves Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 09:36 AM) You didn't mention Avisail . But of course you have to mention him weather you like him or not . And I know you don't . You have to admit he has a s***load of upside.He's big strong and fast . He is the our Mike Trout. He has that much potential. Yeah,yeah yeah... O swing schmo swing. Trying not to be dismissive of your concerns since you make every effort to be fair in your arguments. But geez if you're gonna point out every potential flaw in every prospects repetoire it gets tedious . Will he ever realize that huge potential ? I don't know but it will be fun and frustrating watching. Garcia does not have Mike Trout potential. He's an interesting prospect, and we've had so few position players like him in recent years that I can understand the excitement, but he is nowhere near Mike Trout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 05:14 PM) Garcia does not have Mike Trout potential. He's an interesting prospect, and we've had so few position players like him in recent years that I can understand the excitement, but he is nowhere near Mike Trout. Avi Garcia is Avi Garcia. Trout is Trout. It's not fair or even appropriate IMO to start comparing players to someone else and making judgments. Garcia has a bright future with this team and I think will be an exciting player. Edited March 23, 2014 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShandyMan Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 11:14 AM) Garcia does not have Mike Trout potential. He's an interesting prospect, and we've had so few position players like him in recent years that I can understand the excitement, but he is nowhere near Mike Trout. I don't think that he was implying he had Mike Trout potential. I think he was trying to make the point that Garcia can be a franchise-changer for the white sox in the way that Trout did for the Angels. Obviously not on the same level, but still significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (staxx @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 12:53 PM) I don't think that he was implying he had Mike Trout potential. I think he was trying to make the point that Garcia can be a franchise-changer for the white sox in the way that Trout did for the Angels. Obviously not on the same level, but still significant. It's like comparing Trout to Mickey Mantle before the knee injuries, DiMaggio, Willie Mays, etc. Garcia has a TON of raw talent, but so does Viciedo, for that matter...but can they refine it into actual results and statistics on the back of the baseball card, that's the only important question to be answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 08:55 AM) Olt's ceiling is way higher than Connor. The only thing that stopped Olt were the concussion problems. If not for that, the kid never leaves Texas. That, combined with the vision problems...and Beltre, of course. I suppose they could have moved him to 1B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 09:14 AM) Garcia does not have Mike Trout potential. He's an interesting prospect, and we've had so few position players like him in recent years that I can understand the excitement, but he is nowhere near Mike Trout. Excuse me do you have to take it so literally ? Give it a rest . I know talents like Trout come along very rarely but he's big and fast and an outfielder with big upside. He's the cloest thing we have to Trout so he is OUR Trout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 01:11 PM) Excuse me do you have to take it so literally ? Give it a rest . I know talents like Trout come along very rarely but he's big and fast and an outfielder with big upside. He's the cloest thing we have to Trout so he is OUR Trout. Jared Mitchell and Courtney Hawkins are ALSO our Mike Trout, haha. Edited March 23, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (staxx @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 01:53 PM) I don't think that he was implying he had Mike Trout potential. I think he was trying to make the point that Garcia can be a franchise-changer for the white sox in the way that Trout did for the Angels. Obviously not on the same level, but still significant. I don't know that Garcia can be a franchise-changing player. Best speed/power position player prospect since Ray Durham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 02:11 PM) Excuse me do you have to take it so literally ? Give it a rest . I know talents like Trout come along very rarely but he's big and fast and an outfielder with big upside. He's the cloest thing we have to Trout so he is OUR Trout. Our Trout is a bootleg version by comparison then. Typical White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 12:37 PM) Our Trout is a bootleg version by comparison then. Typical White Sox.Are you here just to alienate people ? You're definitely not a Sox fan. You seem so miserable ,like you have all the answers and you can't comprehend why the Sox don't do things your way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 03:27 PM) Are you here just to alienate people ? You're definitely not a Sox fan. You seem so miserable ,like you have all the answers and you can't comprehend why the Sox don't do things your way. I do have all the answers many of them are even right. I strongly disagree with some of the ways the White Sox are currently conducting business and apparently it rubs some the wrong way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 04:55 PM) I do have all the answers many of them are even right. I strongly disagree with some of the ways the White Sox are currently conducting business and apparently it rubs some the wrong way. Then again if they had followed your advice last year, they would be figuring out how to handle not only Adam Dunn's contract, but also Greinke and Hamilton. Forget about [hewhoshallnotbenamed] or [hewhoshallnotbesigned]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 05:55 PM) I do have all the answers many of them are even right. I strongly disagree with some of the ways the White Sox are currently conducting business and apparently it rubs some the wrong way. Which of these 3 numbers do you think is a more accurate prediction of what Andy Wilkins would do in the big leagues if called up right now: his .380 OBP at Birmingham in the first half of 2013, his .312 OBP at Charlotte in the 2nd half of 2013, or the .350 average OBP over the entire season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 04:59 PM) Then again if they had followed your advice last year, they would be figuring out how to handle not only Adam Dunn's contract, but also Greinke and Hamilton. Forget about [hewhoshallnotbenamed] or [hewhoshallnotbesigned]. You win some, you lose some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 04:59 PM) Which of these 3 numbers do you think is a more accurate prediction of what Andy Wilkins would do in the big leagues if called up right now: his .380 OBP at Birmingham in the first half of 2013, his .312 OBP at Charlotte in the 2nd half of 2013, or the .350 average OBP over the entire season? His .350 OBP is closer to his true talent than his .312. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:11 PM) You win some, you lose some. Which is why you don't take massive gambles that have high risks of ruining your franchise for five years. Like paying 32+ year old, injury-prone free agents $15-25m per year because of their successful "track records." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 04:59 PM) Which of these 3 numbers do you think is a more accurate prediction of what Andy Wilkins would do in the big leagues if called up right now: his .380 OBP at Birmingham in the first half of 2013, his .312 OBP at Charlotte in the 2nd half of 2013, or the .350 average OBP over the entire season? His .350 OBP is closer to his true talent than his .312. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:16 PM) Which is why you don't take massive gambles that have high risks of ruining your franchise for five years. Like paying 32+ year old, injury-prone free agents $15-25m per year because of their successful "track records." Yet in the Jose Abreu thread you said if he were a AAAA hitter, $10 million a year for 6 years, really wasn't a big hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:16 PM) Which is why you don't take massive gambles that have high risks of ruining your franchise for five years. Like paying 32+ year old, injury-prone free agents $15-25m per year because of their successful "track records." You can lose that way, or you can lose rebuilding, but some how losing and rebuilding (not spending money) is a victory to some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 05:18 PM) Yet in the Jose Abreu thread you said if he were a AAAA hitter, $10 million a year for 6 years, really wasn't a big hit. Right. Because Jose Abreu is 27 and they're paying him $10m/yr, which is very much not 32+ and $15-25m like I just said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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