Tyler Flowers is your 2014 starting catcher

[harfman77]

Isn't the best time to spend money when the team has a young core.

 

Yes it is, but this team does not have that yet. There are a bunch of prospects that may or may not pan out, if they don't spending money now is a waste and potentially ties your hands when you actually have that core developed. The team needs to see if this group of players can develop into the core of a winning team, if not you put off the spending until that core is built.

[hogan873]

If he had signed somewhere else for $68.5M you know this board would be more than ok with it. $13M a year for a 27 y.o. 1B goes against a lot of what I've seen written on this board about how to best allocate financial resources.

Insert game show wrong answer buzzer here.

 

If Abreu had signed somewhere else for slightly more than the Sox had offered, there would have been much complaining. Everything we've heard about this guy before (and now during) spring training is that he looks to be a very good power hitting player. He fills a void that the Sox needed to fill. And now with what people have seen in ST, it looks like $13 million a year for this guy could be quite the bargain.

[Marty34]

Yes it is, but this team does not have that yet. There are a bunch of prospects that may or may not pan out, if they don't spending money now is a waste and potentially ties your hands when you actually have that core developed. The team needs to see if this group of players can develop into the core of a winning team, if not you put off the spending until that core is built.

 

Why not operate on the idea that this is the core because there are few tradeable assets left to add to it. If the core isn't any good, a mid-tier starter's contract is the least of their worries.

[harfman77]

If he had signed somewhere else for $68.5M you know this board would be more than ok with it. $13M a year for a 27 y.o. 1B goes against a lot of what I've seen written on this board about how to best allocate financial resources.

 

Not exactly. Abreu is making less than Dunn on an AAV as even with his signing bonus he is making just over $11M/season. Hes also a rare sub-27 FA, meaning the Sox have him signed through what will likely be the prime of this career. Abreu is not a band-aid as some have suggested we pursue in FA, he is a building block. Tanaka would have been the same way. Ubaldo Jimenez is not worth more money than a potential all star 1B to a team where he would be the 3-5 best option in addition to the long term damage to the teams core by sacrificing a first round level pick (right now #42 overall). Many free agents now are post-prime band-aids, and while they can be useful in the right situation, they are not useful in building a team that will contend over the long term.

[harfman77]

Why not operate on the idea that this is the core because there are few tradeable assets left to add to it. If the core isn't any good, a mid-tier starter's contract is the least of their worries.

 

Because there is no evidence to support this idea. The window for this team to compete is through 2019, and the window is more likely 2016-2019. There is no reason to clog up the ML roster with re-treads when we don't even really know where the gaps are yet. Mid-tier starters are getting paid more than Adam Dunn, and his contract is the scourge of Soxtalk.

[ScottyDo]

If he had signed somewhere else for $68.5M you know this board would be more than ok with it. $13M a year for a 27 y.o. 1B goes against a lot of what I've seen written on this board about how to best allocate financial resources.

Name a comparable player that this board has said no to. Please note that neither Pitcher S nor Pitcher J are REMOTELY similar to Abreu in age, talent costs, controllability or projected performance.

[Kyyle23]

Noted. Now tell me what you really meant by "Your theories on cores and payroll point to nothing but a constant roster rollover with no way to sustain success."

 

It is self explanatory.

[Marty34]

Because there is no evidence to support this idea. The window for this team to compete is through 2019, and the window is more likely 2016-2019. There is no reason to clog up the ML roster with re-treads when we don't even really know where the gaps are yet. Mid-tier starters are getting paid more than Adam Dunn, and his contract is the scourge of Soxtalk.

 

Dunn's contract was the scourge because the core the Sox had in place had run its course. Dunn's contract did not prevent them from winning and there is no way a mid-tier starter's contract would prevent this core from winning.

[Balta1701]

Dunn's contract was the scourge because the core the Sox had in place had run its course. Dunn's contract did not prevent them from winning and there is no way a mid-tier starter's contract would prevent this core from winning.

Which is clearly why you haven't complained at all about the Sox giving playing time to Adam Dunn.

[witesoxfan]

Isn't the best time to spend money when the team has a young core.

 

They did, and they were willing to spend more. McCann got a ton of money. Had the Sox signed him for that, I'd have been OK with it with the caveat that I thought it was a bit too much, but overall OK. They were in on Tanaka until the end and I'm OK with the effort they made in attempting to sign him. Slightly disappointed he ended up elsewhere, but I'm not upset they didn't get him. They did sign Abreu.

 

But you don't just spend money to spend money. Had they brought in AJ Burnett at $16 mill, I would have been very upset.

[Marty34]

Which is clearly why you haven't complained at all about the Sox giving playing time to Adam Dunn.

 

There's no law against releasing him.

 

 

[ScottyDo]

There's no law against releasing him.

There's also no law against signing him to a 10 year, $200M extension! Let's do all the things there aren't laws against!

 

Excellent explanation of your position, sir.

[Balta1701]

There's no law against releasing him.

But there goes your mid-tier contract money on a player not on the roster. Shame, can't sign that mid-tier player you want.

[Eminor3rd]

This board is so concerned with JR checking account balance. I just wonder, what if the Yankees or Dodgers needed a 1st baseman and Abreu's price went up, what would have been the cutoff money-wise before his current can't miss, can't wait to see him in the middle of the line up would have change to the "he's never faced a pitch in the major leagues, he's not worth it, maybe when the team is a little better you could spend the money".

 

We don't care at all how much money that JR has, it's just we're looking past that and dealing in reality.

 

None of us know how much the Sox make, how much they have saved, ownership's ability or willingness to expand budget, balh blah etc. The reality is that there is a limit to how much the team is going to spend on payroll, and we have some frame of reference that tells us that our team is willing and able to be in the upper quarter when they feel it's necessary. This is PLENTY of information for us to like or not like deals based on financials. You can wish JR would spend endlessly if you like, but it isn't going to happen.

 

There IS a ceiling, it's a reasonable ceiling, and therefore we don't like s***ty deals that waste money because we know there's a limit. The morality of that is completely separate from the analysis and interpretation of the deals that happen to the team.

 

Marty's kindergarten logic dictates that we should sign overpriced players because JR should have enough money to continue throwing money at problems anyway DESPITE the fact that there is no precedent for this type of behavior. But we know that he WON'T continue to throw money at problems anyway, and therefore we should NOT sign overpriced players.

 

Marty deals in Martyland, the rest of us are dealing in reality.

[royoung]

But there goes your mid-tier contract money on a player not on the roster. Shame, can't sign that mid-tier player you want.

 

BUT WHY ISN'T THERE MONEY FOR EVERYTHING I WANT?? JERRY IS CHEAP!!

 

And around we will go.

[Marty34]

Name a comparable player that this board has said no to. Please note that neither Pitcher S nor Pitcher J are REMOTELY similar to Abreu in age, talent costs, controllability or projected performance.

 

There are no comparable players to Abreau, but that doesn't mean he is without risk or even less risky than the pitchers above. Jimenez went for ~30% less. If he busts it's less of a problem than if Abreau does and isn't that what anti-spending guys are preaching. Save Chairman Reinsdorf's money!

[witesoxfan]

There are no comparable players to Abreau, but that doesn't mean he is without risk or even less risky than the pitchers above. Jimenez went for ~30% less. If he busts it's less of a problem than if Abreau does and isn't that what anti-spending guys are preaching. Save Chairman Reinsdorf's money!

 

Jimenez being less of a problem as a $50 million bust is like saying losing one leg is less of a problem than losing two legs. At the end of the day, it's still a pretty big f'ing problem.

[ptatc]

We don't care at all how much money that JR has, it's just we're looking past that and dealing in reality.

 

None of us know how much the Sox make, how much they have saved, ownership's ability or willingness to expand budget, balh blah etc. The reality is that there is a limit to how much the team is going to spend on payroll, and we have some frame of reference that tells us that our team is willing and able to be in the upper quarter when they feel it's necessary. This is PLENTY of information for us to like or not like deals based on financials. You can wish JR would spend endlessly if you like, but it isn't going to happen.

 

There IS a ceiling, it's a reasonable ceiling, and therefore we don't like s***ty deals that waste money because we know there's a limit. The morality of that is completely separate from the analysis and interpretation of the deals that happen to the team.

 

Marty's kindergarten logic dictates that we should sign overpriced players because JR should have enough money to continue throwing money at problems anyway DESPITE the fact that there is no precedent for this type of behavior. But we know that he WON'T continue to throw money at problems anyway, and therefore we should NOT sign overpriced players.

 

Marty deals in Martyland, the rest of us are dealing in reality.

^^^^

 

We all know that there is a limit. You can complain about the limit, throw rocks at it or disregard it in your plans, that will not change the fact that the White Sox will have it. You can make your plans for the team in your ideal world but if you are realistic you know about where the limit is and discuss team options within that limitation.

[Dick Allen]

We don't care at all how much money that JR has, it's just we're looking past that and dealing in reality.

 

None of us know how much the Sox make, how much they have saved, ownership's ability or willingness to expand budget, balh blah etc. The reality is that there is a limit to how much the team is going to spend on payroll, and we have some frame of reference that tells us that our team is willing and able to be in the upper quarter when they feel it's necessary. This is PLENTY of information for us to like or not like deals based on financials. You can wish JR would spend endlessly if you like, but it isn't going to happen.

 

There IS a ceiling, it's a reasonable ceiling, and therefore we don't like s***ty deals that waste money because we know there's a limit. The morality of that is completely separate from the analysis and interpretation of the deals that happen to the team.

 

Marty's kindergarten logic dictates that we should sign overpriced players because JR should have enough money to continue throwing money at problems anyway DESPITE the fact that there is no precedent for this type of behavior. But we know that he WON'T continue to throw money at problems anyway, and therefore we should NOT sign overpriced players.

 

Marty deals in Martyland, the rest of us are dealing in reality.

Again, in the Abreu thread, you said if he was a bust, $60 million wasn't going to harm the team. At least be consistent.

 

The fact that the Sox were in on Tanaka tells you all you really need to know about their finances. Apparently JR WAS WILLING TO THROW MONEY AT HIS PROBLEMS.

 

He threw $68 million at Abreu and in total was probably willing to go twice as much for Tanaka.

[harfman77]

There are no comparable players to Abreau, but that doesn't mean he is without risk or even less risky than the pitchers above. Jimenez went for ~30% less. If he busts it's less of a problem than if Abreau does and isn't that what anti-spending guys are preaching. Save Chairman Reinsdorf's money!

 

Jimenez AAV=$12.5M, Abreu AAV=$11.3M. Jimenez is also four years older, does not have a very good track record, and costs a prospect. Yes Abreu gets more money as his deal if for two more years, yes there is risk, but if he performs in the mid range of expectations he will outperform his contract. Mike Napoli just signed a contract for $16M/year as a 32yo with power numbers near where Abreu is projected to hit this year with a .259 average. At no point does Abreu's contract reach that amount of money but is production is expected to be at least on par.

 

I definitely am not anti-spending, just anti-stupid spending. Jimenez, Santana, are not worth what they are getting paid. They are not difference makers. I am all for spending on the right guy, there just aren't many of them out there. Next off-season Chase Headley and Pablo Sandoval will be a targets of interest as guys that can bring balance and stability the the lineup, other than that there isn't much coming up that will make sense.

[southsider2k5]

Name a comparable player that this board has said no to. Please note that neither Pitcher S nor Pitcher J are REMOTELY similar to Abreu in age, talent costs, controllability or projected performance.

 

I know my tone was completely different based on the contract for Tanaka being for 4 years or 7 years. Contract does make a difference to weather something is a good value.

 

This has been Mr Obvious signing off.

[Marty34]

Jimenez AAV=$12.5M, Abreu AAV=$11.3M. Jimenez is also four years older, does not have a very good track record, and costs a prospect. Yes Abreu gets more money as his deal if for two more years, yes there is risk, but if he performs in the mid range of expectations he will outperform his contract. Mike Napoli just signed a contract for $16M/year as a 32yo with power numbers near where Abreu is projected to hit this year with a .259 average. At no point does Abreu's contract reach that amount of money but is production is expected to be at least on par.

 

I definitely am not anti-spending, just anti-stupid spending. Jimenez, Santana, are not worth what they are getting paid. They are not difference makers. I am all for spending on the right guy, there just aren't many of them out there. Next off-season Chase Headley and Pablo Sandoval will be a targets of interest as guys that can bring balance and stability the the lineup, other than that there isn't much coming up that will make sense.

 

Headley and Sandoval make far less sense than Jimenez in my view. I don't see why you'd want to block Davidson.

[Balta1701]

Headley and Sandoval make far less sense than Jimenez in my view. I don't see why you'd want to block Davidson.

Why do you want to block Beck?

[southsider2k5]

Why do you want to block Beck?

 

Obviously the solution is to sign Davidson to a team friendly long term deal and immediately trade him for someone exponentially more expensive and marginally better.

[Balta1701]

Obviously the solution is to sign Davidson to a team friendly long term deal and immediately trade him for someone exponentially more expensive and marginally better.

(I actually can see a scenario where this happens...if Gillaspie has a really solid year, maybe adds 4-5 more HR and pushes his all-around performance upwards, since he's a lefty he'll fit the lineup a lot better than Davidson and we'll have a real bugger on our hand. Trade the established player who fits the lineup better, or trade the more talented guy who might need more development time, is RH in a lineup loaded with righties, and is higher risk due to strikeouts.

 

Again, that presupposes Gillaspie shows solid improvement this season, which I stress is just a scenario, not an expectation or guarantee)