Eminor3rd Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 20, 2014 -> 05:26 PM) Jerry Reinsdorf is rich enough to afford a better rotation. Can I ask what your career is? Where can you work to make a legitimate living and not learn how a business is run? JR is the head of an INVESTMENT GROUP that has invested in a team with the purpose of MAKING MONEY. It's like you think the Sox are run by literally just Jerry Reinsdorf sitting on a pile of gold with a bag of Fritos trying to decide the best way to blow his fortune. "Hmmmmmmmmm Marty wants to win 90 games, but.... NOOO! Only 82 games this year! You only get 40 gold coins for pitchers Rick! No more wins unless I SAY SO! I'm the boss!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 20, 2014 -> 04:57 PM) What evidence do you want. Is this a question or what. See, I can do it too. I mean, for fudge's sake, what evidence do you think I want? I'm a numbers guy. Maybe try and show why they are crater sized holes in the rotation. Be forewarned - you better be prepared as s***, because I consider a crater-sized hole in a rotation about the size of Jamie Navarro, and the Sox really haven't had one of those in about 15 years, even including the rotating "Mike Porzio" 5th starter days. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 20, 2014 -> 05:21 PM) Seeing the numbers out of AZ reinforces my belief that Hahn did not do enough to address the rotation this winter. It's a long season for pitchers when your home park is the Cell, if nothing else they needed an innings-eater. Also, it's an embarrassment to this rebuild that Axelrod was even invited to camp. AND THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. You are putting stock into Spring Training numbers. Randy Johnson almost consistently had an ERA of over 9 in Spring Training. If pitchers show velocity, control, and command, then managers and coaches do not care. Quit using Spring numbers to justify your argument because Spring numbers are f***ing meaningless. QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 20, 2014 -> 10:36 PM) Can I ask what your career is? Where can you work to make a legitimate living and not learn how a business is run? JR is the head of an INVESTMENT GROUP that has invested in a team with the purpose of MAKING MONEY. It's like you think the Sox are run by literally just Jerry Reinsdorf sitting on a pile of gold with a bag of Fritos trying to decide the best way to blow his fortune. "Hmmmmmmmmm Marty wants to win 90 games, but.... NOOO! Only 82 games this year! You only get 40 gold coins for pitchers Rick! No more wins unless I SAY SO! I'm the boss!" Scrooge McDuck swimming in his piles of gold, goddamn him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Seeing the numbers out of AZ reinforces my belief that Hahn did not do enough to address the rotation this winter. It's a long season for pitchers when your home park is the Cell, if nothing else they needed an innings-eater. Also, it's an embarrassment to this rebuild that Axelrod was even invited to camp. You have to be trolling. Nobody is actually that stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 07:23 AM) Is this a question or what. See, I can do it too. I mean, for fudge's sake, what evidence do you think I want? I'm a numbers guy. Maybe try and show why they are crater sized holes in the rotation. Be forewarned - you better be prepared as s***, because I consider a crater-sized hole in a rotation about the size of Jamie Navarro, and the Sox really haven't had one of those in about 15 years, even including the rotating "Mike Porzio" 5th starter days. AND THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. You are putting stock into Spring Training numbers. Randy Johnson almost consistently had an ERA of over 9 in Spring Training. If pitchers show velocity, control, and command, then managers and coaches do not care. Quit using Spring numbers to justify your argument because Spring numbers are f***ing meaningless. Scrooge McDuck swimming in his piles of gold, goddamn him. I prefer the dragon Smaug as the image... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 20, 2014 -> 05:21 PM) Seeing the numbers out of AZ reinforces my belief that Hahn did not do enough to address the rotation this winter. It's a long season for pitchers when your home park is the Cell, if nothing else they needed an innings-eater. Also, it's an embarrassment to this rebuild that Axelrod was even invited to camp. If you are looking at ST numbers, there is no way you can equate Danks and a hole in the rotation. Johnson may be a work in progress, but 90% of rookies are. Paulino is a question mark, granted, but the fifth rotation spot is not going to make or break this team, if it turns out that the only between the Sox and contention in mid-July is Felipe Paulino, Hahn has the assets to make and upgrade at that time. I think a lot here are underrating our pitching and overrating our offense going into this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 10:04 AM) If you are looking at ST numbers, there is no way you can equate Danks and a hole in the rotation. Johnson may be a work in progress, but 90% of rookies are. Paulino is a question mark, granted, but the fifth rotation spot is not going to make or break this team, if it turns out that the only between the Sox and contention in mid-July is Felipe Paulino, Hahn has the assets to make and upgrade at that time. I think a lot here are underrating our pitching and overrating our offense going into this season. Rebuilding, especially a team as bad as last year, is not a 1 year process. Hahn has made changes that has added youth to several key offensive spots in RF, IB, 3B and CF. Now hopefully 3 or even 4 develop into full-time players. By next year he can hopefully find a closer, another starter and most importantly a catcher. He should also have made decisions on LF, SS and 2B. I look at this year as developmental, next year as vastly improving and 2016 as contending again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (SCCWS @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 09:19 AM) Rebuilding, especially a team as bad as last year, is not a 1 year process. Hahn has made changes that has added youth to several key offensive spots in RF, IB, 3B and CF. Now hopefully 3 or even 4 develop into full-time players. By next year he can hopefully find a closer, another starter and most importantly a catcher. He should also have made decisions on LF, SS and 2B. I look at this year as developmental, next year as vastly improving and 2016 as contending again. Totally agree, I am anticipating the SoxTalk meltdown in June saying that Hahn is moron who acquired a bunch of bums when some of these guys start to struggle through their first full seasons. Offensively this is going to be a season of us taking our licks and getting the some of the kinks worked out. We are starting 3 rookies to start the season and could be up to 5 or six by August 1, this is going to be a year for getting guys accustomed to the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 02:33 PM) Totally agree, I am anticipating the SoxTalk meltdown in June saying that Hahn is moron who acquired a bunch of bums when some of these guys start to struggle through their first full seasons. Offensively this is going to be a season of us taking our licks and getting the some of the kinks worked out. We are starting 3 rookies to start the season and could be up to 5 or six by August 1, this is going to be a year for getting guys accustomed to the majors. I've already written off Davidson. Soxtalk hath spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 07:29 AM) I prefer the dragon Smaug as the image... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 09:33 AM) Totally agree, I am anticipating the SoxTalk meltdown in June saying that Hahn is moron who acquired a bunch of bums when some of these guys start to struggle through their first full seasons. Offensively this is going to be a season of us taking our licks and getting the some of the kinks worked out. We are starting 3 rookies to start the season and could be up to 5 or six by August 1, this is going to be a year for getting guys accustomed to the majors. No kidding. We all know the Sox were awful last year and Hahn has done a hell of a job getting quality young guys through trades as well as the signing of JDA. Yet a few folks here would rather continue to point out potential negatives instead of focusing on the positives or at least potential positives . It really is a sad perspective. There are still holes and question marks but i realize rebuilds take time and am very excited to see what the youngsters are capable of. Some people can never be pleased nor stop focusing on the negatives. How sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Maybe this is in another thread, but this article is a nice wrap up about what's been going on with the White Sox...and puts it in a Sox-recent-history perspective. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-most-in...cago-white-sox/ Kind of poses the thought of Abreu as the expected success guy, Eaton as the solid guy, A-Garcia as the boom or bust, Davidson as the maybe-maybe-not. I guess due to his positional fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 01:47 PM) No kidding. We all know the Sox were awful last year and Hahn has done a hell of a job getting quality young guys through trades as well as the signing of JDA. Yet a few folks here would rather continue to point out potential negatives instead of focusing on the positives or at least potential positives . It really is a sad perspective. There are still holes and question marks but i realize rebuilds take time and am very excited to see what the youngsters are capable of. Some people can never be pleased nor stop focusing on the negatives. How sad. Aside from the Davidson trade, what has Hahn done that was not expected? By most accounts, the Cubs got a better return for Garza than he did for Peavy and he got nothing for Rios. As far as rebuilds taking time, yes they do. However, by trading for near ready prospects, they've chosen a shorter timeline for this rebuild than your run-of-the-mill one and judging by that I don't think enough was done over the winter. I don't think Hahn has done a bad job, just not enough given the timeline. Edited March 21, 2014 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 02:16 PM) Aside from the Davidson trade, what has Hahn done that was not expected? By most accounts, the Cubs got a better return for Garza than he did for Peavy and he got nothing for Rios. As far as rebuilds taking time, yes they do. However, by trading for near ready prospects, they've chosen a shorter timeline for this rebuild than your run-of-the-mill one and judging by that I don't think enough was done over the winter. I don't think Hahn has done a bad job, just not enough given the timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 02:16 PM) Aside from the Davidson trade, what has Hahn done that was not expected? By most accounts, the Cubs got a better return for Garza than he did for Peavy and he got nothing for Rios. As far as rebuilds taking time, yes they do. However, by trading for near ready prospects, they've chosen a shorter timeline for this rebuild than your run-of-the-mill one and judging by that I don't think enough was done over the winter. I don't think Hahn has done a bad job, just not enough given the timeline. I was unaware that Leury Garcia was nothing. I don't believe the Cubs got more for Garza at all - the Sox got a player with a higher ceiling and 3 solid, if underdeveloped, prospects as well. If you do not believe Hahn has done enough, what more do you feel he could have done given his resources and what was available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 02:16 PM) Aside from the Davidson trade, what has Hahn done that was not expected? By most accounts, the Cubs got a better return for Garza than he did for Peavy and he got nothing for Rios. As far as rebuilds taking time, yes they do. However, by trading for near ready prospects, they've chosen a shorter timeline for this rebuild than your run-of-the-mill one and judging by that I don't think enough was done over the winter. I don't think Hahn has done a bad job, just not enough given the timeline. On the other side, Hahn has take a lot of risk out of his acquisitions by acquiring guys that are major league ready as they have at least ML level floors. He traded Peavy and received a ML ready talent in Garcia two lottery tickets in Montas a guy that projects as at least a high leverage reliever, and glove first SS and a third guy that has a chance to be a bullpen guy. He dumped almost $20M of Rios' deal for a super UT player. Not a great return, but it freed up money for Abreu. He turned a back end of the rotation starter and a guy that was going to be moved off the 40 man roster into a cost controlled lead off hitter that was a top 100 prospect before his injury last season. He turned a soon to be expensive closer into another top 100 prospect. He ran one of the best drafts in baseball last season as the Sox pulled in several guys (Engel, May, Mitchell, and Goldberg) who already showing good potential and the ability to move fast through the system. He signed the best power prospect in the international July 2 class. It would have been nice to grab Tanaka, but you can't financially hamstring the franchise to take a chance on a guy that has never played in the majors. I can not think of any really poor moves Hahn has made. He is setting up this team to produce its own talent, and when they are close to competing he has left the team the financial flexibility to fill in any gaps at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) On the other side, Hahn has take a lot of risk out of his acquisitions by acquiring guys that are major league ready as they have at least ML level floors. He traded Peavy and received a ML ready talent in Garcia two lottery tickets in Montas a guy that projects as at least a high leverage reliever, and glove first SS and a third guy that has a chance to be a bullpen guy. He dumped almost $20M of Rios' deal for a super UT player. Not a great return, but it freed up money for Abreu. He turned a back end of the rotation starter and a guy that was going to be moved off the 40 man roster into a cost controlled lead off hitter that was a top 100 prospect before his injury last season. He turned a soon to be expensive closer into another top 100 prospect. He ran one of the best drafts in baseball last season as the Sox pulled in several guys (Engel, May, Mitchell, and Goldberg) who already showing good potential and the ability to move fast through the system. He signed the best power prospect in the international July 2 class. It would have been nice to grab Tanaka, but you can't financially hamstring the franchise to take a chance on a guy that has never played in the majors. I can not think of any really poor moves Hahn has made. He is setting up this team to produce its own talent, and when they are close to competing he has left the team the financial flexibility to fill in any gaps at that time. Great post. One nitpick..is Reed really 'soon to be expensive' ? I suppose in the sense that any closer could be seen as that, but with 'expensive' i think of $-figures that prevent you from doing a bunch of other stuff to great degree Edited March 21, 2014 by Jose Paniagua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 03:01 PM) Great post. One nitpick..is Reed really 'soon to be expensive' ? I suppose in the sense that any closer could be seen as that, but with 'expensive' i think of $-figures that prevent you from doing a bunch of other stuff to great degree He's no where near as good as Craig Kimbrel - then again, who is? - but Kimbrel signed a 4 year, $42 mill deal last June. Reed is probably an $8-10 mill a year guy in his prime and on the free agent market, so you are looking at about $15-18 mill over the next 4 years. That can definitely prevent you from making moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 02:50 PM) On the other side, Hahn has take a lot of risk out of his acquisitions by acquiring guys that are major league ready as they have at least ML level floors. He took a lot of risk out of it at the expense of reward. This is the core, there isn't going to be a lot of developing with these guys, and as such more should have been done to fill in the talent around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) It's interesting the Sox are getting raves for their offseason and definitely better than the alternative, but keep in mind, Toronto won the offseason last year. These guys still have to play when it counts. Edited March 21, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 02:50 PM) On the other side, Hahn has take a lot of risk out of his acquisitions by acquiring guys that are major league ready as they have at least ML level floors. He traded Peavy and received a ML ready talent in Garcia two lottery tickets in Montas a guy that projects as at least a high leverage reliever, and glove first SS and a third guy that has a chance to be a bullpen guy. He dumped almost $20M of Rios' deal for a super UT player. Not a great return, but it freed up money for Abreu. He turned a back end of the rotation starter and a guy that was going to be moved off the 40 man roster into a cost controlled lead off hitter that was a top 100 prospect before his injury last season. He turned a soon to be expensive closer into another top 100 prospect. He ran one of the best drafts in baseball last season as the Sox pulled in several guys (Engel, May, Mitchell, and Goldberg) who already showing good potential and the ability to move fast through the system. He signed the best power prospect in the international July 2 class. It would have been nice to grab Tanaka, but you can't financially hamstring the franchise to take a chance on a guy that has never played in the majors. I can not think of any really poor moves Hahn has made. He is setting up this team to produce its own talent, and when they are close to competing he has left the team the financial flexibility to fill in any gaps at that time. BOOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 03:25 PM) It's interesting the Sox are getting raves for their offseason and definitely better than the alternative, but keep in mind, Toronto won the offseason last year. These guys still have to play when it counts. The big difference is that the Sox off-season wasn't about this season. It is about getting back 22 years of cheap team control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 03:25 PM) It's interesting the Sox are getting raves for their offseason and definitely better than the alternative, but keep in mind, Toronto won the offseason last year. These guys still have to play when it counts. The Blue Jays did have a really good offseason last year, but they also happen to play in the toughest division in baseball. I just don't understand the need to nitpick and point out the downside of this. Yes, guys can fail and yes, the rebuild isn't complete. These are things people from Hahn to the beer vendor to you and I all know. The Sox still did a lot of really good things between July 1st of 2013 and now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 03:33 PM) The Blue Jays did have a really good offseason last year, but they also happen to play in the toughest division in baseball. I just don't understand the need to nitpick and point out the downside of this. Yes, guys can fail and yes, the rebuild isn't complete. These are things people from Hahn to the beer vendor to you and I all know. The Sox still did a lot of really good things between July 1st of 2013 and now. How do we know that. Fangraphs slapped a few articles up, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 03:49 PM) How do we know that. Fangraphs slapped a few articles up, I guess. Because I paid attention, Marty. They made a lot of really good moves to get younger. If you judge everything in hindsight, you're destined to stagnate and do nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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