Sox make more roster moves

[caulfield12]

However, you did not address the actual given point, that Wilkins's OBP last year is made up of a .380 OBP at birmingham and .310 at Charlotte, and thus the .350 average is irrelevant. You ignored it.

 

Instead, you responded with an ad hominem attack, changing the subject and attacking on an irrelevant issue because you will not say that you expect Wilkins to put up a higher than .312 OBP if he is brought up right now.

 

Josh Phegley's average OPS between Chicago and Charlotte last year is .765. That should indicate that he was an above average contributor using the exact same standard you just used, so why aren't you up in arms about him being at Charlotte?

 

 

And yet I would be willing to wager any amount of money he's not upset about Paul Konerko being on the roster again this year.

[cabiness42]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this basically what the Opening Day roster will probably look like? With the last bullpen spot the only battle left.

 

C: Flowers - Nieto

1B/DH: Abreu - Konerko - Dunn

IF: Gillaspie - Semien - Garcia - Ramirez

OF: Garcia - De Aza - Viciedo - Eaton

 

SP: Sale - Q - Danks - Johnson - Paulino

RP: Jones - Downs - Lindstrom - Belisario - Cleto - Veal - Putnam/Purcey/Webb

 

DL: Keppinger - Beckham

 

Yes, if Keppinger and Beckham do start the year on the DL, then that will be the roster and I think Webb gets that last spot.

[caulfield12]

Yes, if Keppinger and Beckham do start the year on the DL, then that will be the roster and I think Webb gets that last spot.

 

 

There's no way in hell they're going to carry three lefties.

[oldsox]

Why do the Sox have to carry 12 pitchers? With all of the off days and probable snow outs, why so many?

[caulfield12]

Why do the Sox have to carry 12 pitchers? With all of the off days and probable snow outs, why so many?

 

 

Maybe to protect Sale, Quintana, Johnson (expected short starts occasionally) and Paulino...especially in bad weather situations or situations where they have to start games and then delay them.

[witesoxfan]

Okay, Southsider, I'll bite. Please explain. I think I know what you will say, just want to hear it. Regardless, I still don't like the trade.

 

Matt Davidson could absolutely play in Chicago right now, but Gillaspie has experience and a lot of times guys who play their first full season in the majors come back the next year and perform better. It's worth seeing if Gillaspie improves. However, that's only the surface and the only aspect to which Ventura and Hahn will admit. See, the real reason is that if the Sox wait until June - for Davidson to "work on his fundamentals on defense" (because he couldn't do that at the big league level, obviously) - is that they'll be able to save a year of service time for him. However, if they were to admit that exact thing publicly, the player's union would be on their ass so fast and so hard that they'd probably be forced to give up that year of service time regardless of how long they had him in the minors as they'd be suggesting that he's the best player but they want him to hang around a little longer.

 

And here's the skinny on that trade: Addison Reed is a reliever, one that got touched up quite often over the past two years. He has good stuff, but he's a fairly average closer type, which is to say he'd be a fantastic set up man, but he's still just a reliever. He also only has 4 years of service left before he reaches free agency. Meanwhile, the White Sox will control Matt Davidson - a position player - for 6 full years. If he is even a below average regular at 3B over that time frame, he will have been worth the deal. If he is average or above average, the Sox win that deal in a landslide.

[cabiness42]

Matt Davidson could absolutely play in Chicago right now, but Gillaspie has experience and a lot of times guys who play their first full season in the majors come back the next year and perform better. It's worth seeing if Gillaspie improves. However, that's only the surface and the only aspect to which Ventura and Hahn will admit. See, the real reason is that if the Sox wait until June - for Davidson to "work on his fundamentals on defense" (because he couldn't do that at the big league level, obviously) - is that they'll be able to save a year of service time for him. However, if they were to admit that exact thing publicly, the player's union would be on their ass so fast and so hard that they'd probably be forced to give up that year of service time regardless of how long they had him in the minors as they'd be suggesting that he's the best player but they want him to hang around a little longer.

 

And here's the skinny on that trade: Addison Reed is a reliever, one that got touched up quite often over the past two years. He has good stuff, but he's a fairly average closer type, which is to say he'd be a fantastic set up man, but he's still just a reliever. He also only has 4 years of service left before he reaches free agency. Meanwhile, the White Sox will control Matt Davidson - a position player - for 6 full years. If he is even a below average regular at 3B over that time frame, he will have been worth the deal. If he is average or above average, the Sox win that deal in a landslide.

 

Assuming Davidson isn't on the Opening Day roster, they will actually control him for 7 years.

[caulfield12]

Matt Davidson could absolutely play in Chicago right now, but Gillaspie has experience and a lot of times guys who play their first full season in the majors come back the next year and perform better. It's worth seeing if Gillaspie improves. However, that's only the surface and the only aspect to which Ventura and Hahn will admit. See, the real reason is that if the Sox wait until June - for Davidson to "work on his fundamentals on defense" (because he couldn't do that at the big league level, obviously) - is that they'll be able to save a year of service time for him. However, if they were to admit that exact thing publicly, the player's union would be on their ass so fast and so hard that they'd probably be forced to give up that year of service time regardless of how long they had him in the minors as they'd be suggesting that he's the best player but they want him to hang around a little longer.

 

And here's the skinny on that trade: Addison Reed is a reliever, one that got touched up quite often over the past two years. He has good stuff, but he's a fairly average closer type, which is to say he'd be a fantastic set up man, but he's still just a reliever. He also only has 4 years of service left before he reaches free agency. Meanwhile, the White Sox will control Matt Davidson - a position player - for 6 full years. If he is even a below average regular at 3B over that time frame, he will have been worth the deal. If he is average or above average, the Sox win that deal in a landslide.

 

They just need "average" production out of him, as long as it's not the 600ish OPS of Morel/Hudson/Youk in 2012.

 

With Abreu expected to excel and be a top 5-7 MLB first baseman, everything can be balanced out as long as the starting pitching is dominant.

 

The key is going to be finding the correct LH complement to go with Abreu...and of course Garcia/Eaton/Viciedo hitting as expected.

 

They can afford to have complementary/glue guys like Semien/M.Johnson/Sanchez in the middle infield...but they have to defend and do all the little things well in the best Twins/Iguchi fashion.

 

And catcher, obviously, everything revolves around that position, and it's their biggest weakness.

Edited March 24, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Matt Davidson could absolutely play in Chicago right now, but Gillaspie has experience and a lot of times guys who play their first full season in the majors come back the next year and perform better. It's worth seeing if Gillaspie improves. However, that's only the surface and the only aspect to which Ventura and Hahn will admit. See, the real reason is that if the Sox wait until June - for Davidson to "work on his fundamentals on defense" (because he couldn't do that at the big league level, obviously) - is that they'll be able to save a year of service time for him. However, if they were to admit that exact thing publicly, the player's union would be on their ass so fast and so hard that they'd probably be forced to give up that year of service time regardless of how long they had him in the minors as they'd be suggesting that he's the best player but they want him to hang around a little longer.

 

And here's the skinny on that trade: Addison Reed is a reliever, one that got touched up quite often over the past two years. He has good stuff, but he's a fairly average closer type, which is to say he'd be a fantastic set up man, but he's still just a reliever. He also only has 4 years of service left before he reaches free agency. Meanwhile, the White Sox will control Matt Davidson - a position player - for 6 full years. If he is even a below average regular at 3B over that time frame, he will have been worth the deal. If he is average or above average, the Sox win that deal in a landslide.

So if he is a RH Conor Gillaspie and Reed has a productive career, the deal was worth it? Seems to me it would have been a waste of an asset. As long as the guy is good, years of "control" are nice, but if he isn't so good, who cares? Most of this board is very upset over the years of control the Sox have over Adam Dunn.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Dick Allen

[cabiness42]

So if he is a RH Conor Gillaspie and Reed has a productive career, the deal was worth it? Seems to me it would have been a waste of an asset. As long as the guy is good, years of "control" are nice, but if he isn't so good, who cares? Most of this board is very upset over the years of control the Sox have over Adam Dunn.

 

Very different concept of "years of control". Dunn was a FA signing a guaranteed contract for lots of money. Davidson will be paid league minimum for four years and then arbitration rate for three years and the Sox' commitment is only year to year.

[caulfield12]

So if he is a RH Conor Gillaspie and Reed has a productive career, the deal was worth it? Seems to me it would have been a waste of an asset. As long as the guy is good, years of "control" are nice, but if he isn't so good, who cares? Most of this board is very upset over the years of control the Sox have over Adam Dunn.

 

Sergio Santos for Molina was the waste of an asset. Edwin Jackson for Zach Stewart was the waste of an asset, largely.

 

Davidson just has to hit 18-24 homers per season and play slightly above league average defense.

 

 

How many times have we been over this "closer" issue?

 

Jones, Belisario, Lindstrom, Webb and maybe even Cleto all have the ability stuff-wise to close....as the White Sox have proven since Joe Crede/Uribe left, it's MUCH harder to find a 3B OR to find a leadoff hitter than it is to find short relievers/set-up guys.

 

At some point, you need a reliable, 80-85-90% closer, but it's not the biggest issue facing the club right now.

 

And Reed's never going to be anything special....just that low 80% type of save guy, like Santos was as well.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Sergio Santos for Molina was the waste of an asset. Edwin Jackson for Zach Stewart was the waste of an asset, largely.

 

Davidson just has to hit 18-24 homers per season and play slightly above league average defense.

 

 

How many times have we been over this "closer" issue?

 

Jones, Belisario, Lindstrom, Webb and maybe even Cleto all have the ability stuff-wise to close....as the White Sox have proven since Joe Crede/Uribe left, it's MUCH harder to find a 3B OR to find a leadoff hitter than it is to find short relievers/set-up guys.

 

At some point, you need a reliable, 80-85-90% closer, but it's not the biggest issue facing the club right now.

 

And Reed's never going to be anything special....just that low 80% type of save guy, like Santos was as well.

I get a kick out of everyone kicking Reed saying he won't be anything special, but once you start mentioning forfeiting the second round pick, guys like Reed, because he was a 3rd rounder IIRC, suddenly get mentioned as guys you don't want to lose the opportunity to acquire by signing someone their former team feels is worth at least $14 million for a season.

 

The bottom line is if Davidson sucks, the deal wasn't worth it. It is up to him. There is some team out there that would have given up a useful piece for Reed. The White Sox felt Davidson was that piece. If he is a below average 3rd baseman, they aren't going to be happy about it.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Okay, Southsider, I'll bite. Please explain. I think I know what you will say, just want to hear it. Regardless, I still don't like the trade.

 

We got a potential 30 homer, 6 year starting 3rd baseman out of the trade for something we produce like crazy for cheap, which is closers. We already have two or three other guys who are more than capable of taking his spot. While he did a solid job, we aren't talking about Craig Kimbrel here.

 

The second part is that Davidson wasn't going to "beat out" Gillaspie here. It goes deeper than that.

 

#1-Gillaspie is out of options, and the Sox don't want to lose him for nothing. If they put him on waivers the odds are much higher that someone claims him during ST, than if they did it during the season.

 

#2-Davidson also has the service time consideration. He spent 50 days on the roster last year. The Sox are probably looking to avoid both Super 2 status, and to gain a year of ownership before he could hit free agency. There is no point in wasting a year of service, for a season that doesn't mean dick.

 

#3-Gillaspie has no trade value right now. If he does show some growth, there is a chance he can build some value, and become a tradable commodity by the time the Sox. If he sucks, see #1.

 

#4-All along the Sox have indicated that Davidson was ticketed for Charlotte. I don't know if that means they want him to work on something(s), but the expectation was that he would not start the season with the big club.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Assuming Davidson isn't on the Opening Day roster, they will actually control him for 7 years.

 

Davidson has 50 days of service, meaning that they couldn't call him up until about June 1 for that to be true.

[Kyyle23]

The bottom line is if Davidson sucks, the deal wasn't worth it. It is up to him. There is some team out there that would have given up a useful piece for Reed. The White Sox felt Davidson was that piece. If he is a below average 3rd baseman, they aren't going to be happy about it.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that they won't care if Davidson sucks. As of right now you don't know of any other player that any other team would have given up, so really that is irrelevant.

 

If Davidson doesn't pan out and we are back to square one, of course people are going to be annoyed with the trade. However, stating "I see Reed was lights out this spring training and Davidson couldn't even beat out Gillaspie" two months after the trade is extremely shortsighted.

 

IMO Davidson would be starting if Keppinger wasn't on the team, I don't think it has anything to do with Gillaspie.

[southsider2k5]

I get a kick out of everyone kicking Reed saying he won't be anything special, but once you start mentioning forfeiting the second round pick, guys like Reed, because he was a 3rd rounder IIRC, suddenly get mentioned as guys you don't want to lose the opportunity to acquire by signing someone their former team feels is worth at least $14 million for a season.

 

The bottom line is if Davidson sucks, the deal wasn't worth it. It is up to him. There is some team out there that would have given up a useful piece for Reed. The White Sox felt Davidson was that piece. If he is a below average 3rd baseman, they aren't going to be happy about it.

 

Um, we turned a 3rd round draft pick (Addison Reed) into the teams probable future starting 3B for the next 6ish years, at a cost that will probably be around $14 million TOTAL. That is why you don't forfeit draft picks without a damned good reason to do so.

 

This deal is exactly the value play that everyone is talking about.

[caulfield12]

I get a kick out of everyone kicking Reed saying he won't be anything special, but once you start mentioning forfeiting the second round pick, guys like Reed, because he was a 3rd rounder IIRC, suddenly get mentioned as guys you don't want to lose the opportunity to acquire by signing someone their former team feels is worth at least $14 million for a season.

 

The bottom line is if Davidson sucks, the deal wasn't worth it. It is up to him. There is some team out there that would have given up a useful piece for Reed. The White Sox felt Davidson was that piece. If he is a below average 3rd baseman, they aren't going to be happy about it.

 

Atlanta's in "win now" mode, definitely.

 

And they didn't sign him for 3-4-5 years. They really had little choice, they had to do something right away.

 

We're not in that same situation.

 

Look at the Rangers, they could probably use Beckham now that Profar's out for the first 3 months. They have to realistically assess if they can afford to get behind in that division. For the moment, we are freed from all those types of "instant gratification" personnel decisions that were perhaps best illustrated by the Hudson/Jackson trade.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

So if he is a RH Conor Gillaspie and Reed has a productive career, the deal was worth it? Seems to me it would have been a waste of an asset. As long as the guy is good, years of "control" are nice, but if he isn't so good, who cares? Most of this board is very upset over the years of control the Sox have over Adam Dunn.

 

Technically, yes, but it'd be a disappointment. However, Davidson is a better prospect than Gillaspie and is more highly thought of. Beyond that, Gillaspie was out of options. Had he had options remaining, I can guarantee you that San Francisco doesn't trade him for Jeff Soptic.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I get a kick out of everyone kicking Reed saying he won't be anything special, but once you start mentioning forfeiting the second round pick, guys like Reed, because he was a 3rd rounder IIRC, suddenly get mentioned as guys you don't want to lose the opportunity to acquire by signing someone their former team feels is worth at least $14 million for a season.

 

The bottom line is if Davidson sucks, the deal wasn't worth it. It is up to him. There is some team out there that would have given up a useful piece for Reed. The White Sox felt Davidson was that piece. If he is a below average 3rd baseman, they aren't going to be happy about it.

 

 

Dick, it's not even that he won't be anything special. He's just a reliever. The Sox can develop those. Relievers also get way overpaid in the arbitration process because of the save stat. If Nate Jones has a tremendous season, I would still trade him for 6 guaranteed years of control for a young catcher or LF that the team feels like can be a starter. If Davidson busts, it was still a good trade. It just wouldn't have worked out. There's a big difference in my opinion.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Um, we turned a 3rd round draft pick (Addison Reed) into the teams probable future starting 3B for the next 6ish years, at a cost that will probably be around $14 million TOTAL. That is why you don't forfeit draft picks without a damned good reason to do so.

 

This deal is exactly the value play that everyone is talking about.

 

 

Excellent Post.

[Princess Dye]

However, Davidson is a better prospect than Gillaspie and is more highly thought of.

 

Correct. I think with all the dissection and analyzing of these guys, we lose track of how young Davidson is.

 

He was of worth because of ceiling and mystery. If you never go get guys like that, and/or you never have a yankee payroll, then i dont know what other avenues you have. Draft well and thats it.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Jose Paniagua

[Dick Allen]

Um, we turned a 3rd round draft pick (Addison Reed) into the teams probable future starting 3B for the next 6ish years, at a cost that will probably be around $14 million TOTAL. That is why you don't forfeit draft picks without a damned good reason to do so.

 

This deal is exactly the value play that everyone is talking about.

Yet you laugh at anyone calling the Cubs top prospects "a core". Do you know BP ranks 7 Cubs prospects ahead of Davidson?

 

If Davidson is the regular 3rd baseman for 6 years, and performs, it's a good trade. If he is Brent Morel or Josh Fields, 2 guys who at one time were ranked just as high, or in Fields' case, even higher, and Reed is productive, it wasn't a good trade, because you most probably could have received something else for Reed, if indeed, he had to go.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Yet you laugh at anyone calling the Cubs top prospects "a core". Do you know BP ranks 7 Cubs prospects ahead of Davidson?

 

If Davidson is the regular 3rd baseman for 6 years, and performs, it's a good trade. If he is Brent Morel or Josh Fields, 2 guys who at one time were ranked just as high, or in Fields' case, even higher, and Reed is productive, it wasn't a good trade, because you most probably could have received something else for Reed, if indeed, he had to go.

 

Your core isn't your prospects. Why is that so difficult?

[Kyyle23]

So, to summarize:

 

If Davidson is good, we are happy.

 

If Davidson is not good, we are not happy, because someone(we don't know who) would have given up something better for Reed.

[southsider2k5]

So, to summarize:

 

If Davidson is good, we are happy.

 

If Davidson is not good, we are not happy, because someone(we don't know who) would have given up something better for Reed.

 

Because all trades work in hindsight.