Dick Allen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If the Dodgers or Yankees aren't involved, prices seem to decrease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 10:44 PM) “You’ve seen the magnitude of what some of these deals have gotten to in free agency,” Hahn said. “It makes sense to try to get out in front of that sometimes, to try to get the price points locked in before the market continues to grow and not only is the risk heightened of the cost of signing the player, but quite frankly the chance the player moves on somewhere else also becomes heightened. In our opinion it makes more sense to move quickly and be proactive in these situations.” Sale and Quintana are two centerpieces of a young core that the Sox have been trying to build since midsummer, and Sox manager Robin Ventura said Monday he is happy the duo will be around for a while. Hahn said the deals enable the club to focus on other needs. “It frees us up to allocate our resources to other needs, which is beneficial, and takes a couple of other things off our to-do list, which is always nice,” Hahn said. www.chicagotribune.com/sports I love having a forward thinker like this in the front office instead of the reactionary type of the past... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 09:22 AM) If the Dodgers or Yankees aren't involved, prices seem to decrease. Yep. Which is why Hanley is in the biggest of catbird seats next offseason, imo. Those two and others could make it crazy in his favor. Edited March 25, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 As Passan pointed out though, one thing in Scherzer's favor is his lower amount of total pitches/workload than those previous 7-8 pitchers with the huge workloads. And he was arguably the best pitcher in the AL the last two months of the 2012 season until he started getting a little ouchy, but he pitched through it. So roughly 1 1/2 seasons now of dominance, not just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 FoxSports.com's reported offer of six years and $144 million would make Scherzer among the highest-paid pitchers in baseball – not to mention the second oldest of those with $127 million-plus deals. He's 29 now, turns 30 in July and only rotation-mate Justin Verlander (30) got his $100 million-plus more wizened. When he signed, Zack Greinke was almost a year from his 30th birthday, Johan Santana just shy of his 29th. CC Sabathia and Cole Hamels were 28, Matt Cain 27, Clayton Kershaw and Felix Hernandez 26, and Masahiro Tanaka 25. Enormous pitching contracts that encompass lots of years and feature a high average annual value are the domain of young men, and Scherzer's age plays against him. Of course, he and agent Scott Boras can argue his wear and tear pales compared to those peers and thus positions him in the proper place to seek more. When Kershaw signed his seven-year, $215 million deal, he did so with 18,643 regular-season pitches thrown. That's on the low side. Hernandez got seven years despite 24,872 pitches, Verlander seven with 25,424, Sabathia seven after 26,252. Scherzer's total after six major league seasons: 17,316. Here's the truth: If Scherzer is healthy – and the Tigers wouldn't have offered him what they did if he weren't – a six-year, $144 million for a pitcher coming off a Cy Young season and entering free agency with a little more than 20,000 pitches after this season simply isn't a deal to which Boras or one of his clients will agree. It's stupid money. Insane money. Untoward money. It's not the market, though, not when $9 billion course through the game and the players seek their rightful share of it. Hamels got $144 million over six years in July 2012 with 20,069 pitches thrown. Los Angeles gave Greinke $147 million over six, plus an opt-out, in December 2012 as he approached his 24,000th pitch. And Tanaka, whose pitch count is horrifying to even consider, scored seven years, $155 million and an opt-out. The ceiling is now Kershaw. Boras doesn't traffic in floors. Even if the intent wasn't to make it personal, the wording of the Tigers' statement ensured it came off that way. One general manager posited the only rational explanation behind Dombrowski releasing it was to prevent Boras from going to ownership and negotiating a deal himself, which is wildly cynical and makes complete sense considering his history of goading the Tigers into guaranteeing nearly $350 million to Pudge Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez and Prince Fielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 05:33 PM) FoxSports.com's reported offer of six years and $144 million would make Scherzer among the highest-paid pitchers in baseball – not to mention the second oldest of those with $127 million-plus deals. He's 29 now, turns 30 in July and only rotation-mate Justin Verlander (30) got his $100 million-plus more wizened. When he signed, Zack Greinke was almost a year from his 30th birthday, Johan Santana just shy of his 29th. CC Sabathia and Cole Hamels were 28, Matt Cain 27, Clayton Kershaw and Felix Hernandez 26, and Masahiro Tanaka 25. Enormous pitching contracts that encompass lots of years and feature a high average annual value are the domain of young men, and Scherzer's age plays against him. Of course, he and agent Scott Boras can argue his wear and tear pales compared to those peers and thus positions him in the proper place to seek more. When Kershaw signed his seven-year, $215 million deal, he did so with 18,643 regular-season pitches thrown. That's on the low side. Hernandez got seven years despite 24,872 pitches, Verlander seven with 25,424, Sabathia seven after 26,252. Scherzer's total after six major league seasons: 17,316. Here's the truth: If Scherzer is healthy – and the Tigers wouldn't have offered him what they did if he weren't – a six-year, $144 million for a pitcher coming off a Cy Young season and entering free agency with a little more than 20,000 pitches after this season simply isn't a deal to which Boras or one of his clients will agree. It's stupid money. Insane money. Untoward money. It's not the market, though, not when $9 billion course through the game and the players seek their rightful share of it. Hamels got $144 million over six years in July 2012 with 20,069 pitches thrown. Los Angeles gave Greinke $147 million over six, plus an opt-out, in December 2012 as he approached his 24,000th pitch. And Tanaka, whose pitch count is horrifying to even consider, scored seven years, $155 million and an opt-out. The ceiling is now Kershaw. Boras doesn't traffic in floors. Even if the intent wasn't to make it personal, the wording of the Tigers' statement ensured it came off that way. One general manager posited the only rational explanation behind Dombrowski releasing it was to prevent Boras from going to ownership and negotiating a deal himself, which is wildly cynical and makes complete sense considering his history of goading the Tigers into guaranteeing nearly $350 million to Pudge Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez and Prince Fielder. I agree with that article's sentiment. Regardless of whether that's a large amount of money, if Tanaka just got what he did, it's probably worth the risk for Scherzer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (bmags @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 11:50 AM) I agree with that article's sentiment. Regardless of whether that's a large amount of money, if Tanaka just got what he did, it's probably worth the risk for Scherzer. I disagree with it. For one thing, they are only counting major league regular season pitches, except for Tanaka. Why wouldn't the pitches he threw in college or HS and the minor leagues count? Pitchers are time bombs that will explode. IMO, the guys who have shown they can throw a lot of pitches and not get injured is more of a positive than strike against. All these guys get physicals when they sign. If 20,000 pitches showed a ton of wear and tear, the team would walk away. And when you get older, other parts of your body usually become a little more injury prone, which in itself can cause you to miss time, not to mention setting yourself up with a more serious injury by compensating for the other not so serious one. And that is not even counting what father time naturally does to one's skills. IMO, Scherzer's advanced age is more of a red flag than his total pitches is a go sign. Edited March 25, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 10:57 AM) I disagree with it. For one thing, they are only counting major league regular season pitches, except for Tanaka. Why wouldn't the pitches he threw in college or HS and the minor leagues count? Pitchers are time bombs that will explode. IMO, the guys who have shown they can throw a lot of pitches and not get injured is more of a positive than strike against. All these guys get physicals when they sign. If 20,000 pitches showed a ton of wear and tear, the team would walk away. And when you get older, other parts of your body usually become a little more injury prone, which in itself can cause you to miss time, not to mention setting yourself up with a more serious injury by compensating for the other not so serious one. And that is not even counting what father time naturally does to one's skills. IMO, Scherzer's advanced age is more of a red flag than his total pitches is a go sign. Except Scherzer is not Captain Cheeseburger. He's more of an athlete, like Greinke (and yes, I realize for his size, CC still manages to move around a lot better than you'd expect). He takes extremely good care of himself...maybe not Nolan Ryan-like obsessive about training and conditioning, but he's known for being proactive. I do agree eight years is crazy for a pitcher. Even with Verlander last year, it already looked like he was losing his invincibility with all the rumors out there about diminished velocity from him and King Felix. Edited March 25, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 12:05 PM) Except Scherzer is not Captain Cheeseburger. He's more of an athlete, like Greinke (and yes, I realize for his size, CC still manages to move around a lot better than you'd expect). He takes extremely good care of himself...maybe not Nolan Ryan-like obsessive about training and conditioning, but he's known for being proactive. I do agree eight years is crazy for a pitcher. Even with Verlander last year, it already looked like he was losing his invincibility with all the rumors out there about diminished velocity from him and King Felix. Athlete or not, throwing overhand, especially as often and as hard as pitchers do, is not a natural motion and the body is not meant to withstand that sort of damage. If he has god given characteristics - unusually strong tendons, ligaments, and muscles or improved natural ability for his body to regenerate and repair itself - then it is, but there's really no way to test for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 06:05 PM) I do agree eight years is crazy for a pitcher. Even with Verlander last year, it already looked like he was losing his invincibility with all the rumors out there about diminished velocity from him and King Felix. It is crazy, on the otherhand, people are going to go crazy for his first 3 years production and deal with years 7 and 8 when they deal with it. I'm not sure why Scherzer should care about that though. Tigers have spent like crazy for talent, but Scherzer should take a team friendly deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 QUOTE (bmags @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 12:34 PM) It is crazy, on the otherhand, people are going to go crazy for his first 3 years production and deal with years 7 and 8 when they deal with it. I'm not sure why Scherzer should care about that though. Tigers have spent like crazy for talent, but Scherzer should take a team friendly deal? $24 million a year for 6 years for a pitcher over 30 isn't exactly team friendly. Just wait and see what they are going to have to pay Cabrera when he is 40 years old and the gout won't let him run to first base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 11:12 AM) Athlete or not, throwing overhand, especially as often and as hard as pitchers do, is not a natural motion and the body is not meant to withstand that sort of damage. If he has god given characteristics - unusually strong tendons, ligaments, and muscles or improved natural ability for his body to regenerate and repair itself - then it is, but there's really no way to test for that. This is it ^ The reality is that we don't know how to predict pitcher injury. Jamie Moyer threw 100,000,000 pitches or 70 years before he needed TJ, and Jarrod Parker is a 23 year old sophomore who is now on his second TJ. The pitches argument Passan is making is just posturing -- Scherzer is just as likely to get hurt as any other pitcher with his injury history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 11:38 AM) $24 million a year for 6 years for a pitcher over 30 isn't exactly team friendly. Just wait and see what they are going to have to pay Cabrera when he is 40 years old and the gout won't let him run to first base. lol, the gout. He DOES seem old, doesn't he? I'm comfortable with assuming that Cabrera will age 3 "Miggy Years" for every normal human year. Nine years from now, he'll be 58. But yeah, $24m/yr is market rate for a 5 win pitcher. That's not a deal, that's a retail purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Based on my revelation in the Tyler Flowers thread that Jose Quintana is similar to Mark Buehrle (sorta), I dub thee Quetzalcoatl Buehrlé Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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