Attendance

[Thad Bosley]

The Sox have NEVER made two consecutive postseason appearnaces. It's not a Jerry thing. Never happened under veeck, comiskey, or either allyn brother.

No, it "is" a Jerry thing, just as it "was" a Comiskey, Veeck, and Allyn thing when they were the owners. You're correct, though: no owner of the Sox has been able to build sustainable success, which is why the franchise has had these attendance problems for decades upon decades. But Reinsdorf is the owner now, so the spotlight and microscope is on him. And my point in responding to a poster before, who rightfully pointed out that the solution to the attendance problem was to build a ball club capable of sustainable success, was suggesting we try a new owner. The current one has been at this for 34 years now, and has proven, to date, incapable of building such a consistent winner.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Thad Bosley

[max power]

No, it "is" a Jerry thing, just as it "was" a Comiskey, Veeck, and Allyn thing. You're correct: no owner of the Sox has been able to build sustainable success, which is why the franchise has had attendance problems for decades upon decades. But Reinsdorf is the owner now, so the spotlight and microscope is on him. And my point in responding to a poster who rightfully pointed out that the solution to the attendance problem was building sustainable success was suggesting we try a new owner, because the current one has proven incapable of building a consistent winner over a very wide, 34 year period.

f*** that's sad.

 

Personally, I've never been less entusiastic about being a sox fan. I can't tell you why exactly, but it is a combination of last year, robin, jerry, the blackhawks, and most of all, stone and hawk. They just bore me to death. I can barely listen anymore. Maybe I need to get to some games.

Edited June 14, 2014 by MAX

[Y2Jimmy0]

Did the Bears leave Chicago?

 

 

The Bears have the most dumb fans because they have the most fans. I think by percentage, it's Bulls fans. There are 6 banners in the United Center and most fans are reluctant to trade gritty, try hard players to get stars. NBA fans in this city should be a hell of a lot smarter than they are.

[southsider2k5]

No, it "is" a Jerry thing, just as it "was" a Comiskey, Veeck, and Allyn thing when they were the owners. You're correct, though: no owner of the Sox has been able to build sustainable success, which is why the franchise has had these attendance problems for decades upon decades. But Reinsdorf is the owner now, so the spotlight and microscope is on him. And my point in responding to a poster before, who rightfully pointed out that the solution to the attendance problem was to build a ball club capable of sustainable success, was suggesting we try a new owner. The current one has been at this for 34 years now, and has proven, to date, incapable of building such a consistent winner.

 

If you want to measure it historically, the JR era is the most successful in franchise history, really by any measure.

[Marty34]

No, it "is" a Jerry thing, just as it "was" a Comiskey, Veeck, and Allyn thing when they were the owners. You're correct, though: no owner of the Sox has been able to build sustainable success, which is why the franchise has had these attendance problems for decades upon decades. But Reinsdorf is the owner now, so the spotlight and microscope is on him. And my point in responding to a poster before, who rightfully pointed out that the solution to the attendance problem was to build a ball club capable of sustainable success, was suggesting we try a new owner. The current one has been at this for 34 years now, and has proven, to date, incapable of building such a consistent winner.

 

Exactly. Reinsdorf's failure with the Sox is obscured by the Jordan-era Bulls. The Sox are a sleeping giant and to blame the fan base is folly.

[caulfield12]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/wsoxatte.shtml

 

If you look at attendance date/averages vs. the rest of AL, you could easily argue 1905-1920 and 1950-1967 were much more successful.

 

Pretty shocked how well the attendance stood up in 1920 even after the Black Sox scandal. You can definitely see it fall off after the disappointment at the end of the 1967 season, as well as after the White Flag Trade.

[My_Sox_Summer]

Well this was predictable. These attendance threads always wind up having the same feel from year to year.

 

1.) Shock and awe because how could real sox fans not go to the X game with X pitcher playing. 18k fans.

2.) Counter arguments about how inflation is an evil beast, 10 f***ing bucks for X foot/drink item.

3.) The Geographically challenged Sox fan who if only they lived 1500 miles closer would buy a season ticket plan, plant sox flags in their yard, shoot tshirts with the pride crew.

4.) The superfan. They went to X more games than you. How the f*** can you call yourself a sox fan. The TV doesnt count in their world.

5.) Grumblings about millionaires playing baseball.

6.) Threats to move team.

7.) Blame X person in Sox Management for being out of touch.

8.) The self loathing sox fan who is kind of like the superfan, however likes the park empty because they can pee without waiting in a line, like the roomy seats, no lines for concessions and get to tell their buddies how they suck as sox fans.

 

You want to solve this problem. It involves boosting season ticket sales. Plain and simple. You are not going to get 20k walkup on a thursday night game no matter who the f*** is pitching. Season ticket sales is the key. And I am sorry that takes a few years to build up. Rebuilding teams that are coming off of near 100 loss seasons are not adding to their season ticket base.

 

No I haven't been to any games this year. Its not money, its not that they are bad. I am in another category that happen as well. The oversubscribed parent of a travel baseball player. Between games, practices, and tournaments there are some of us who don't have time to go. In August when this is over, I will do my good to embrace my fandom and take my family to the park. But until then it has to wait. I will be a terrible fan who uses my phone, my laptop and dare say it my TV to keep up with the Sox. Watching my son play the game is still a better use of my time than watching the sox any day. If that makes me a bad fan, then so be it.

 

Go Sox

 

Bad choice of words on my end. I'd rather watch little league than the Sox on most days too. To be clear, you are not in the group I was talking about.

 

I just get tired of hearing that it is too expensive to go when it clearly isn't much more expensive than most family outings. I don't think you fall into the category of people b****ing about price but have 0 intention on going anyways. It's that fan that has to have an excuse besides their laziness to blame on why they don't go to the park. I lived 2.5 hours away from the park back in the day, I made it once or twice a year. The drive sucked, it was a long day the next day, but never was it too expensive to go.

 

I am in a unique situation, so I am taking advantage of both low ticket prices and my proximity to The Cell.

[Iwritecode]

I think the mentality will eventually change. But it is going to take a lot of winning, for a decent period of time.

 

This.

 

That's because the Hawks are good now. When the Hawks were bad, those people were not there (in fact, few people were). If the Sox are good, those people appear at USCF. That's just how it goes.

 

and this...

 

Yup, and that's been my point throughout this thread. If the Sox went on a run like the San Francisco Giants, people would feel privileged to buy those "expensive" tickets. But instead they have one playoff appearance in 8 years and no one wants to go.

 

Families aren't being out priced, they just aren't excited enough about the product on the field to spend the money.

 

and also this.

 

Get in the playoffs and win a few games and suddenly all the excuses fall away.

[Thad Bosley]

If you want to measure it historically, the JR era is the most successful in franchise history, really by any measure.

Well, I don't want to measure it historically because it's just flat out irrelevant. It is rather feint praise to conclude that Jerry Reinsdorf has somehow been a great owner because his record of success is better than that of John Allyn. That's just silly!

 

No, where I'm coming from is that here we are, in 2014, essentially still having the same conversations about attendance that were going on when Reinsdorf and Einhorn (remember him?) first bought the ball club way back in '81. Jerry is so often referred to as one of the smartest owners in the game, and yet after 34 years, he still hasn't solved the most fundamental problem of his own franchise. As Hawk likes to say in the broadcasts "It's just that simple!".

Edited June 17, 2014 by Thad Bosley

[Carlo Paz]

In a recent study, Sox fans were rated fourth in variability as related to winning. In other words, Sox fans only show up for a winning team. Only the A's, Phillies and Orioles fans are more demanding of a quality product before they come out to the park. Yankees and Cardinal fans will come out no matter what's on the field (though I'm quite sure this is related to the fact that the teams seldom stink for too long). Here's the study.

https://scholarblogs.emory.edu/esma/2014/06...ormance-prices/

[jasonxctf]

The top 3 teams also had new stadiums built during that period too.

[Eminor3rd]

Well, I don't want to measure it historically because it's just flat out irrelevant. It is rather feint praise to conclude that Jerry Reinsdorf has somehow been a great owner because his record of success is better than that of John Allyn. That's just silly!

 

No, where I'm coming from is that here we are, in 2014, essentially still having the same conversations about attendance that were going on when Reinsdorf and Einhorn (remember him?) first bought the ball club way back in '81. Jerry is so often referred to as one of the smartest owners in the game, and yet after 34 years, he still hasn't solved the most fundamental problem of his own franchise. As Hawk likes to say in the broadcasts "It's just that simple!".

 

And here WE are, still pretending that nothing has changed regarding how people consume baseball over that 34 year period.

[southsider2k5]

And here WE are, still pretending that nothing has changed regarding how people consume baseball over that 34 year period.

 

And ignoring that attendance at the ballpark has doubled since Jerry and Eddie took over.

[Thad Bosley]

And here WE are, still pretending that nothing has changed regarding how people consume baseball over that 34 year period.

I guess the fans of the 27 teams in front of us in attendance are still consuming baseball the 'ol fashioned way of actually going to the ballpark much more so than our fan base is.

[Thad Bosley]

And ignoring that attendance at the ballpark has doubled since Jerry and Eddie took over.

Doubled to what? We're currently 28th in attendance on our way to the third straight year of drawing less than two million, which is pathetic for a big market team. That's the story, not that Reinsdorf's teams are outdrawing the Veeck and Allyn teams of yesteryear.

[lostfan]

In a recent study, Sox fans were rated fourth in variability as related to winning. In other words, Sox fans only show up for a winning team. Only the A's, Phillies and Orioles fans are more demanding of a quality product before they come out to the park. Yankees and Cardinal fans will come out no matter what's on the field (though I'm quite sure this is related to the fact that the teams seldom stink for too long). Here's the study.

https://scholarblogs.emory.edu/esma/2014/06...ormance-prices/

Been going to Orioles games since 2005, and they have sucked for the vast majority of that time until a year ago, and the attendance reflected that. Now they're halfway decent, and fun to watch, and people actually go to the games. I went to a sold-out game a couple weeks ago, which never happens.

[southsider2k5]

Doubled to what? We're currently 28th in attendance on our way to the third straight year of drawing less than two million, which is pathetic for a big market team. That's the story, not that Reinsdorf's teams are outdrawing the Veeck and Allyn teams of yesteryear.

 

If the story is that Sox fans are bandwagon fans, you missed the last 115 years of the teams history.

[Thad Bosley]

If the story is that Sox fans are bandwagon fans, you missed the last 115 years of the teams history.

Nope, haven't missed the history. What I have missed is current ownership, after 34 years of trying their hand at this, figuring out a way to turn this thing around. To win on something at least remotely resembling a consistent basis, because that's the only way to get those "bandwagon fans" to the ballpark.

 

Outside of '05, there are all of four postseason wins in the Jerry Reinsdorf era. Four. Four in the other 33 years of his ownership of the ball club. Part of the reason there was only $18K "paid" attendance on a lovely summer night at a game featuring Sale v. Scherzer, with Abreu and Cabrera also in the house.

[southsider2k5]

Nope, haven't missed the history. What I have missed is current ownership, after 34 years of trying their hand at this, figuring out a way to turn this thing around. To win on something at least remotely resembling a consistent basis, because that's the only way to get those "bandwagon fans" to the ballpark.

 

Outside of '05, there are all of four postseason wins in the Jerry Reinsdorf era. Four. Four in the other 33 years of his ownership of the ball club. Part of the reason there was only $18K "paid" attendance on a lovely summer night at a game featuring Sale v. Scherzer, with Abreu and Cabrera also in the house.

 

Like I said, the Sox fan base is bandwagon fans. That hasn't changed in 115 years. And again, that number is still way higher than it has ever been, outside of the 2005 bump, since you seem to want to exlcude that.

[caulfield12]

Times the White Sox have been better than the American League average in attendance per season

 

Reinsdorf/Einhorn=8/34 (23.5%) 1981, 83, 84, 91-93, 2006-08

 

Bill Veeck (1975-1980, 1959-1960)=4/8 (50%) 1977, 78, 1959, 1960

 

Allyns (1961-1974)=8/14 (57.1%) 1961-1965, 1972-1974

 

Comiskey Rigney (1956-58)=2/3 (66.7%) 1956-57

 

Grace Comiskey (1940-1955)=5/16 (31.25%) 1941, 43, 1953-55

 

Comiskeys (1902-1939)=24/38 (63.2%) 1902-1917 (1918 World War I) 1919 1920 1925 26 27 1933 1935 1939

****************************************************************************************************

61 years/113 (total franchise history)=54.9% of the time above the AL AVG attendance

 

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/wsoxatte.shtml

Source

Edited June 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

I guess the fans of the 27 teams in front of us in attendance are still consuming baseball the 'ol fashioned way of actually going to the ballpark much more so than our fan base is.

 

Coincidentally, exactly 27 teams won more games than us last year.

 

Comparing attendance totals to the past is useless because of all the cultural and technological changes, and if you want to know the secret to high attendance compared to other teams, look at the win column.

 

And no, I don't mean the "had a couple exciting months before falling out of it a couple years ago" column.

[Dick Allen]

Coincidentally, exactly 27 teams won more games than us last year.

 

Comparing attendance totals to the past is useless because of all the cultural and technological changes, and if you want to know the secret to high attendance compared to other teams, look at the win column.

 

And no, I don't mean the "had a couple exciting months before falling out of it a couple years ago" column.

When the Sox had Maggs, CLee, Big Hurt...their attendance wasn't even average. According to Caulfield's post, they weren't even average when they won the division in 2000 or when they won the WS in 2005.

 

Wasn't there a 10-15 year stretch where the White Sox won more games than just about everyone except for 3 or 4 teams?

 

I think the problem is the fanbase is stuck in the finding an excuse not to attend games mode. Not necessarily the fans fault. There have been great restaurants that didn't draw a crowd. Great TV shows that didn't draw an audience. Somehow, Brooks and his crew need to make USCF a destination, but until they start winning often, I think he has zero chance.

[caulfield12]

When the Sox had Maggs, CLee, Big Hurt...their attendance wasn't even average. According to Caulfield's post, they weren't even average when they won the division in 2000 or when they won the WS in 2005.

 

Wasn't there a 10-15 year stretch where the White Sox won more games than just about everyone except for 3 or 4 teams?

 

I think the problem is the fanbase is stuck in the finding an excuse not to attend games mode. Not necessarily the fans fault. There have been great restaurants that didn't draw a crowd. Great TV shows that didn't draw an audience. Somehow, Brooks and his crew need to make USCF a destination, but until they start winning often, I think he has zero chance.

 

 

It was something like 1990-2006 or 2008 or maybe it was 2000-2008/10....1993-2006, etc. If memory serves me correctly, it was a ten+ year period where it was only the Yankees, Braves and maybe the Red Sox or Cardinals above us.

 

91-93 was all about the new stadium (and very solid White Sox teams at that time, led by Thomas/Ventura/McDowell/Fernandez/Thigpen, etc.), 2006-2008 about the World Series "hangover" effect of bandwagon fans riding out 2007 for the playoffs in 2008 and 1983/84 is also self-explanatory.

Edited June 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

When the Sox had Maggs, CLee, Big Hurt...their attendance wasn't even average. According to Caulfield's post, they weren't even average when they won the division in 2000 or when they won the WS in 2005.

 

Wasn't there a 10-15 year stretch where the White Sox won more games than just about everyone except for 3 or 4 teams?

 

I think the problem is the fanbase is stuck in the finding an excuse not to attend games mode. Not necessarily the fans fault. There have been great restaurants that didn't draw a crowd. Great TV shows that didn't draw an audience. Somehow, Brooks and his crew need to make USCF a destination, but until they start winning often, I think he has zero chance.

 

But they made the playoffs like twice, right? Even though the record was good, this team hasn't been a "winner" in a long time. I'm not saying we have to win 5 WS in a row, but a few consecutive playoff runs would do wonders, IMO.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

But they made the playoffs like twice, right? Even though the records was good, this team hasn't been a "winner" in a long time. I'm not saying we have to win 5 WAS in a row, but a few consecutive playoff runs would do wonders, IMO.

Shouldn't they at least be league average when they win 85-90 games in Chicago? Isn't 1 out of 4 years even being league average in attendance pretty much a failure signal somewhere? They haven't been that bad.

 

A run like you described is probably what it is going to take or at least a team that is supposed to win every year for a while.

 

Someday, it will turn around, but something needs to happen to give it a jump start.