Attendance

[Dick Allen]

Either way they obviously figured out how to not only survive, but thrive with proverbial low attendance.

With revenue sharing, before they moved into their new place, the Marlins could lock the gates, not sell one ticket and make a profit.

[southsider2k5]

Attendance doesn't matter anymore, this isnt 1990. Have you seen the AAV of the TV contracts that a good 1/3 of MLB has received in the last 5 years. Have you not noticed the influx of revenue all teams receive from MLB advanced media. Have you not noticed how the White Sox in the bottom 1/3 in attendance almost every year are constantly in the top 1/3 in major league payroll. Teams, especially the White Sox have introduced so many non ticket sale produced revenue streams into the equation in the last ten years it just doesn't matter. I wouldn't be surprised if half of MLB get more money from media rights than ticket sales every season. This old default view that attendance and team payroll are proportional needs to go away, things have changed considerably since 2004.

 

Except anecdotal evidence shows we are losing advertisers too.

[southsider2k5]

With revenue sharing, before they moved into their new place, the Marlins could lock the gates, not sell one ticket and make a profit.

 

The Sox will never see a dime of revenue sharing money.

[Balta1701]

Either way they obviously figured out how to not only survive, but thrive with proverbial low attendance.

Do keep in mind that the 2013 payroll on opening day was lower than the 2008 payroll and this year we should be at the lowest amount since 2005.

[southsider2k5]

Do keep in mind that the 2013 payroll on opening day was lower than the 2008 payroll and this year we should be at the lowest amount since 2005.

 

And we had our first operating loss in forever?

[caulfield12]

Either way they obviously figured out how to not only survive, but thrive with proverbial low attendance.

 

 

I don't know if "thrive" is the best word, probably adjust/acclimate.

 

They've fallen from 8th in total team value to 14th over the last half decade, so a lot of the progress from 2005...if not all...has been lost.

 

In a way, 2005, has been working against the White Sox. There's not that unique "wait until next year" feeling that Cubs' fans have, the "this might be the year, finally!" marketing ploy to work with.

 

It's almost like we're in a holding or waiting pattern...for that next huge t.v. deal to come our way. Hopefully we have a great team at that time that puts us in a much better position (than say, today) to negotiate the best possible deal. Sure, 50% of it's about the Chicago market, but we can't afford to be in rebuilding mode for the next five years (like the Cubs now being in Year 4 and counting), that's for sure.

 

The White Sox really do follow that 80/20 sports marketing rule that you should put most of your effort into keeping your loyal fans happy, rather than putting it into bringing in new customers...at least moreso than other teams. For example, the upper deck/seat switching thing that has been in place for years, where fans are basically completely walled off from the lower bowl experience, even in terms of food/concessions/souvenirs, etc. Of course, over the last 2-3 seasons, they've been FORCED to lower ticket prices, especially for the upper deck sections, trying to create a more family oriented atmosphere, refocusing on kids' days/Sundays...because of how many of those loyal season ticket holders they've lost since 2006. They can't completely ignore the goal of bringing in a new generation of baseball fans...as opposed to keeping the 2nd and 3rd generations of loyal/diehard local White Sox fans...in other words, growing their appeal rather than fighting to keep what they have/had.

 

Of course, as noted, another important part of this story is the t.v. ratings/shares, which were surprisingly good in 2012...even though attendance didn't reflect it.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/richar...p;vkey=news_mlb

 

Here's a story that features the Mariners, but also refers to the White Sox and Astros in terms of young teams that it's important to get off to a hot start for...

 

 

Even after adding Robinson Cano, Logan Morrison, Fernando Rodney and Corey Hart, plenty of people thought the Mariners still weren't good enough. There didn't seem to be enough starting pitching behind King Felix and Hisashi Iwakuma, and with Iwakuma beginning the season on the disabled list, there could have been a "here-we-go-again" feeling, both in the clubhouse and the stands.

 

So the Mariners sprinted out of the gate with three victories over the Angels, thanks in large part to great work by young starters James Paxton and Erasmo Ramirez.

 

This is a nice boost for Mariners general manager Jack Zduriencik and new manager Lloyd McClendon. Zduriencik has done terrific work building a first-rate player development system, but he has taken some shots the past couple of years, as those young players haven't turned into overnight stars.

 

Their development is a reminder that young players don't come with guarantees; that they don't all develop at the same pace, and in the end, they don't all make it. No matter how much money the Mariners spent on free agents, they were always going to rise and fall based on the progress (or lack of progress) of their best young talent.

 

Cano gives the Mariners a giant presence in the middle of the lineup and has a chance to help the guys around him. In the end, though, the kids have to be all right for the Mariners to succeed.

Edited April 3, 2014 by caulfield12

[ewokpelts]

And we had our first operating loss in forever?

sox "lost" money in 2011.

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

sox "lost" money in 2011.

 

Forbes had them with about an $11 million OI.

[justBLAZE]

Sox have made deadspin.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Sox have made deadspin.

OUCH

[justBLAZE]

Sox respond:

 

WHITE SOX MAKE SPECIAL OFFER TO FANS WITH TICKETS FOR TODAY’S GAME

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Thursday, April 3, 2014

 

 

 

Team Offering a Complimentary Ticket to Any April Game for Fans With a Ticket to this Afternoon’s Game vs. Minnesota

 

 

 

CHICAGO – The Chicago White Sox are offering a complimentary ticket to any April game at U.S. Cellular Field for any fan who held a ticket to this afternoon’s game vs. Minnesota. The offer is good whether the fan attended today’s game or was kept away by the rainy weather.

 

 

 

Today’s ticket can be redeemed this month at the U.S. Cellular Field ticket office for a Lower Box, Lower Corner, Outfield Reserved, Bleacher, Upper Box, Upper Reserved or Upper Corner game ticket in April. The U.S. Cellular Field ticket office is open 10 a.m.-4 p.m. every Saturday and Sunday, and 10 a.m.-6 p.m. Monday through Friday.

[caulfield12]

11,056 today.

 

 

[SCCWS]

11,056 today.

 

With so few fans, they should have invited them all to sit in the press box.

 

[LittleHurt05]

Sox have made deadspin.

 

There's something to be said for zero bathroom & concession lines and the leg room you can ask for.

[greg775]

There's something to be said for zero bathroom & concession lines and the leg room you can ask for.

 

I know. If it was 62 degrees, not 32, and you could spread out like that, that'd be the game I'd want to go to.

[greg775]

Attendance doesn't matter anymore, this isnt 1990. Have you seen the AAV of the TV contracts that a good 1/3 of MLB has received in the last 5 years. Have you not noticed the influx of revenue all teams receive from MLB advanced media. Have you not noticed how the White Sox in the bottom 1/3 in attendance almost every year are constantly in the top 1/3 in major league payroll. Teams, especially the White Sox have introduced so many non ticket sale produced revenue streams into the equation in the last ten years it just doesn't matter. I wouldn't be surprised if half of MLB get more money from media rights than ticket sales every season. This old default view that attendance and team payroll are proportional needs to go away, things have changed considerably since 2004.

 

If attendance doesn't matter, why not just charge 10 bucks for box seats and be done with it?

[caulfield12]

If attendance doesn't matter, why not just charge 10 bucks for box seats and be done with it?

 

 

Any business is going to maximize revenue...are they not?

 

Obviously, there's a price point they feel comfortable with. If they cut ticket prices by 75%, then they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face...leading to an even lower payroll, it would be a irreversible cycle, not unlike during the Veeck days.

 

The only thing that's going to get them back to that $125-135 million payroll level is a winning team and/or their new media deal, which could be as much as five years away.

 

Forget about $10 box seats, let's just go with $20. If you cut ticket prices that amount, to stay even, you're going to have to double your attendance to break even...in terms of ticket revenues. Just for argument's sake, let's assume the increased attendance is enough not to quite double attendance because of additional parking/souvenirs/concessions to offset it.

 

On the other hand, all those season ticket holders and corporate box/luxury box holders are going to furious because you just eroded the value of the product they're buying substantially. Let's put it another way....say the homeowners on your left and right decided to sell their houses for half of market value because "housing is too expensive." Would you then feel obligated to take half of what you think something is worth for your house?

 

Let's even imagine they started giving tickets away for free...with the idea that would be offset by the parking/concessions/souvenir revenues. Wouldn't you feel insulted if you were a season ticket holder all those years? The biggest problem is that you do cut prices substantially....it's going to take a LONG time to return them to the levels you want to charge. For the White Sox, it would require having a deep run in the playoffs, and cutting revenues from ticketing makes that task all the more difficult by limiting incoming revenues.

 

So to break even, you're going to have operate under the assumption that you can get 3+ million fans to come out to USCF to watch a team win 66-76 games.

 

Do you honestly believe that White Sox fans, knowing them as you do, even if box seats were $10, would want to pay for all the other charges (parking/souvenirs/food, etc.) that go with attending a game? What would the motivation be? I'm referring here to the non-diehard/casual fans who only support the team when it's winning.

 

The Royals for many many seasons had outfield/bleacher/upper deck box seats available for $7-15 and people still wouldn't show up unless there was a good product on the field.

[TheTruth05]

Any business is going to maximize revenue...are they not?

 

Obviously, there's a price point they feel comfortable with. If they cut ticket prices by 75%, then they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face...leading to an even lower payroll, it would be a irreversible cycle, not unlike during the Veeck days.

 

The only thing that's going to get them back to that $125-135 million payroll level is a winning team and/or their new media deal, which could be as much as five years away.

 

Forget about $10 box seats, let's just go with $20. If you cut ticket prices that amount, to stay even, you're going to have to double your attendance to break even...in terms of ticket revenues. Just for argument's sake, let's assume the increased attendance is enough not to quite double attendance because of additional parking/souvenirs/concessions to offset it.

 

On the other hand, all those season ticket holders and corporate box/luxury box holders are going to furious because you just eroded the value of the product they're buying substantially. Let's put it another way....say the homeowners on your left and right decided to sell their houses for half of market value because "housing is too expensive." Would you then feel obligated to take half of what you think something is worth for your house?

 

Let's even imagine they started giving tickets away for free...with the idea that would be offset by the parking/concessions/souvenir revenues. Wouldn't you feel insulted if you were a season ticket holder all those years? The biggest problem is that you do cut prices substantially....it's going to take a LONG time to return them to the levels you want to charge. For the White Sox, it would require having a deep run in the playoffs, and cutting revenues from ticketing makes that task all the more difficult by limiting incoming revenues.

 

So to break even, you're going to have operate under the assumption that you can get 3+ million fans to come out to USCF to watch a team win 66-76 games.

 

Do you honestly believe that White Sox fans, knowing them as you do, even if box seats were $10, would want to pay for all the other charges (parking/souvenirs/food, etc.) that go with attending a game? What would the motivation be? I'm referring here to the non-diehard/casual fans who only support the team when it's winning.

 

The Royals for many many seasons had outfield/bleacher/upper deck box seats available for $7-15 and people still wouldn't show up unless there was a good product on the field.

 

Very well written post,+1

 

[witesoxfan]

If attendance doesn't matter, why not just charge 10 bucks for box seats and be done with it?

 

If you do this, and it brings in 10,000 fans to the upper deck, you make $100,000. Now, if you charge $22.50, and that brings in 4,500 fans, you make $101,250. If you average that over the course of a season, you bring in $101,250 more than with the $10 tickets, which means, in the upper deck alone, you make a games worth of revenue more over the course of a full season.

 

Now figure that when school's out and the weather is nicer and the weekends come, the Sox will draw more than that anyways, and the figure I used - $22.50 - is a pretty low figure anyways.

 

Price point maximization is really a pretty simple process and is something you learn in ECON101, and major league baseball teams are going to employ very good economists because messing that up can lose you a lot of money.

Edited April 4, 2014 by witesoxfan

[IlliniKrush]

If you do this, and it brings in 10,000 fans to the upper deck, you make $100,000. Now, if you charge $22.50, and that brings in 4,500 fans, you make $101,250. If you average that over the course of a season, you bring in $101,250 more than with the $10 tickets, which means, in the upper deck alone, you make a games worth of revenue more over the course of a full season.

 

Now figure that when school's out and the weather is nicer and the weekends come, the Sox will draw more than that anyways, and the figure I used - $22.50 - is a pretty low figure anyways.

 

Price point maximization is really a pretty simple process and is something you learn in ECON101, and major league baseball teams are going to employ very good economists because messing that up can lose you a lot of money.

It's extremely far from "simple." It involves finding the maximum price people will pay for things. You pulled numbers out of a hat for the upper deck, but finding those numbers in real life would involve polling tons of fans and having years of data, playing around with different numbers, to back it up.

 

If they up a ticket a dollar, is it going to affect how often someone goes? Probably not. $10? Definitely? $5? Who knows.

 

There are some metrics to help, but knowing every fan's situation and thought process is impossible.

[napa_soxfan]

Found a lot of consolation in the Reds/Cardinals game yesterday. Highlights showed what looked like a pretty empty Great American Ballpark for the rubber match of an intense opening series between division rivals. Cold temps + day game for them too, so I'm hoping that is truly the case for us.

 

It's F-in Friday, glass is half full!

[Dick Allen]

If you do this, and it brings in 10,000 fans to the upper deck, you make $100,000. Now, if you charge $22.50, and that brings in 4,500 fans, you make $101,250. If you average that over the course of a season, you bring in $101,250 more than with the $10 tickets, which means, in the upper deck alone, you make a games worth of revenue more over the course of a full season.

 

Now figure that when school's out and the weather is nicer and the weekends come, the Sox will draw more than that anyways, and the figure I used - $22.50 - is a pretty low figure anyways.

 

Price point maximization is really a pretty simple process and is something you learn in ECON101, and major league baseball teams are going to employ very good economists because messing that up can lose you a lot of money.

Yes, but you lose parking, concession, and souvenier sales with 4500 vs. 10000. The problem is, the Sox could give away free upper deck tickets to the past couple of games and be nowhere near capacity in the upper deck. The upper deck at USCF has a stigma attached to it that will not go away. Even though there are many seats far better to watch a game in than many on the lower level, it really doesn't matter.

 

Before they got good again, the Blackhawks used to give away free tickets on Ticketmaster from time to time usually near the end of the season. There still was about 8k at the game.

[Harry Chappas]

Yes, but you lose parking, concession, and souvenier sales with 4500 vs. 10000. The problem is, the Sox could give away free upper deck tickets to the past couple of games and be nowhere near capacity in the upper deck. The upper deck at USCF has a stigma attached to it that will not go away. Even though there are many seats far better to watch a game in than many on the lower level, it really doesn't matter.

 

Before they got good again, the Blackhawks used to give away free tickets on Ticketmaster from time to time usually near the end of the season. There still was about 8k at the game.

 

That is the thing. I pay $40 a ticket I spend less in the park as I am pissed I spent $40 on a ticket. I get a free ticket, I spent $60 in the park because....I got a free ticket.

[Dick Allen]

That is the thing. I pay $40 a ticket I spend less in the park as I am pissed I spent $40 on a ticket. I get a free ticket, I spent $60 in the park because....I got a free ticket.

I have always had that theory that the White Sox would prefer corporate accounts than indivduals. For one thing you spread it around. It isn't the same 2 or 3 people going to every game who might get sick of ordering $8 beers and eating the same old things. You get some guy who takes his wife and 2 kids with his company's tickets and parking pass, he's already ahead and IMO is more apt to spend wildly at the park.

[IlliniKrush]

Yes, but you lose parking, concession, and souvenier sales with 4500 vs. 10000. The problem is, the Sox could give away free upper deck tickets to the past couple of games and be nowhere near capacity in the upper deck. The upper deck at USCF has a stigma attached to it that will not go away. Even though there are many seats far better to watch a game in than many on the lower level, it really doesn't matter.

 

Before they got good again, the Blackhawks used to give away free tickets on Ticketmaster from time to time usually near the end of the season. There still was about 8k at the game.

The stigma is that the Sox have banished those people to the UD. I haven't been to one other park that does this. There are a lot more concessions, stands, etc. downstairs. To not let people down there is dumb. We know it all stemmed from keeping the half price Monday crowd off the field, but those don't exist anymore.

 

That is the thing. I pay $40 a ticket I spend less in the park as I am pissed I spent $40 on a ticket. I get a free ticket, I spent $60 in the park because....I got a free ticket.

 

 

I have always had that theory that the White Sox would prefer corporate accounts than indivduals. For one thing you spread it around. It isn't the same 2 or 3 people going to every game who might get sick of ordering $8 beers and eating the same old things. You get some guy who takes his wife and 2 kids with his company's tickets and parking pass, he's already ahead and IMO is more apt to spend wildly at the park.

You'd think people would spend more, but from my limited experience, that's not always the case. I worked for a team where we were able to track merch sales, for example, on games where we had a ton of freebies handed out, and the rev per person was actually lower. Some people have the mentality you do, but some people want to get away with as free of a night as possible.

Edited April 4, 2014 by IlliniKrush