Sox sign Tommy Hanson

[brian310]

People are STILL not over the loss of Santiago? Guy is a 5th starter at best...

[ScottyDo]

Meh, Hector was a borderline talent to begin with. He was never really highly-regarded by anyone until he showed some stuff in the bullpen. That's what you get as a fringy prospect: you get put wherever you can fill a hole. He ended up demonstrating some impressive qualities but that doesn't mean they should have handled him like he was a potential core player.

[Dick Allen]

I think "Throwing too many pitches" was a direct consequence of moving him back and forth between the bullpen and the rotation. See how the fangraphs piece noted that Chris Sale took a couple years to really integrate his changeup as a weapon to right handers? A guy bouncing back and forth between the pen and rotation doesn't get to use his full arsenal so he doesn't get to work on control with those 3rd and 4th pitches.

See Santiago, Hector, minor league stats. It wasn't something that just popped up when he got to the major leagues. He was a starter for the better part of the last half of last season and is a starter with the Angels and it is still happening.

[Balta1701]

See Santiago, Hector, minor league stats. It wasn't something that just popped up when he got to the major leagues. He was a starter for the better part of the last half of last season and is a starter with the Angels and it is still happening.

Chris Sale has started more games since the start of 2011 than Hector Santiago has since he was in rookie ball in 2007.

[Dick Allen]

Chris Sale has started more games since the start of 2011 than Hector Santiago has since he was in rookie ball in 2007.

If it is going to take Santiago 5 years to get straightened out, you will have to admit, putting him in the bullpen was wise. Now he's the Angels headache. Santiago throws too many pitches. You can get away with it in the minors. If your stuff is HOF quality, you can get away with it in the majors. If it is Santiago quality, eventually it will catch up to you. If he doesn't change and needs 100 pitches to go 5 innings, he isn't going to be successful. What is his excuse this year? Since June 9th last year, the entire offseason, and spring training, Santiago has been known as a starter. Hahn dumped him at the proper time. Getting Eaton for Santiago should be something that makes Hahn do some time. It is a heist.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

If it is going to take Santiago 5 years to get straightened out, you will have to admit, putting him in the bullpen was wise. Now he's the Angels headache. Santiago throws too many pitches. You can get away with it in the minors. If your stuff is HOF quality, you can get away with it in the majors. If it is Santiago quality, eventually it will catch up to you. If he doesn't change and needs 100 pitches to go 5 innings, he isn't going to be successful. What is his excuse this year? Since June 9th last year, the entire offseason, and spring training, Santiago has been known as a starter. Hahn dumped him at the proper time. Getting Eaton for Santiago should be something that makes Hahn do some time. It is a heist.

No, I won't admit that putting him in the bullpen was wise, because it literally is the opposite of how the White Sox treat their other players. It's actually sort of mysterious if you look at his minor league numbers, yeah he was a 30th round pick or something like that, but the White Sox usually take even guys they're penciling for the bullpen and push them to start to work their arms and give them a chance to do things like work on control for secondary pitches. Santiago went straight into the minor league bullpens and it looks like he basically had to force his way into a starting role, repeatedly.

[southsider2k5]

No, I won't admit that putting him in the bullpen was wise, because it literally is the opposite of how the White Sox treat their other players. It's actually sort of mysterious if you look at his minor league numbers, yeah he was a 30th round pick or something like that, but the White Sox usually take even guys they're penciling for the bullpen and push them to start to work their arms and give them a chance to do things like work on control for secondary pitches. Santiago went straight into the minor league bullpens and it looks like he basically had to force his way into a starting role, repeatedly.

 

Which is why the red flag should go up. Why is Santiago being treated differently? Because he is to erratic to be a top notch starter. It makes much more sense than some silly message board conspiracy theory to wrong Hector Santiago.

 

Players dictate their treatment in this organization.

 

[Balta1701]

Which is why the red flag should go up. Why is Santiago being treated differently? Because he is to erratic to be a top notch starter. It makes much more sense than some silly message board conspiracy theory to wrong Hector Santiago.

 

Players dictate their treatment in this organization.

The other option could be that he was a 30th round pick and had to earn every chance he got. Might well have even gotten better as time went on too.

[Dick Allen]

The other option could be that he was a 30th round pick and had to earn every chance he got. Might well have even gotten better as time went on too.

Why did his performance not improve from the time he became a full time starter until now?

[southsider2k5]

The other option could be that he was a 30th round pick and had to earn every chance he got. Might well have even gotten better as time went on too.

screw this Santiago guy, he is only a 30th round pick. If only he was a 5th round pick we wouldn't have to f*** with him.

[Balta1701]

Why did his performance not improve from the time he became a full time starter until now?

Because that's covered exactly 20 games total?

[Dick Allen]

Because that's covered exactly 20 games total?

But still, using your conspiracy theory and his uber talent, shouldn't he be at least a little improved? If anything, he's going the other way.

 

I think you will ultimately find out Santiago isn't nearly as tremendous as you think.

[Balta1701]

But still, using your conspiracy theory and his uber talent, shouldn't he be at least a little improved? If anything, he's going the other way.

 

I think you will ultimately find out Santiago isn't nearly as tremendous as you think.

I'm sure you're right and I have no problem with the trade...but I will still think that if he'd been put on the trajectory the white sox use for most of their other guys...start first and then try in the bullpen at higher levels...we'd see a much stronger pitcher.

[ptatc]

But still, using your conspiracy theory and his uber talent, shouldn't he be at least a little improved? If anything, he's going the other way.

 

I think you will ultimately find out Santiago isn't nearly as tremendous as you think.

He's going to be another guy with really good stuff who couldn't put it together. There were many before him and there will be many after. I'm not sure putting him in the bullpen really effected that. Possible but I don't think so.

[ScottyDo]

Lots of pitchers start out in the bullpen, get spot starts, then go back to the bullpen. Some of them then go on to be starters. What, precisely, do people suppose has been altered by this pattern of development? If anything, bullpen guys should throw a greater percentage of strikes than starters, so I'm not sure how "being jerked around" would result in an inability to throw strikes. Are you saying he gets fatigued easily because of the role switch? He should be able to get stretched out over a season. Seems like the reason all of this happened is that Santiago is a fringe player, not the other way around.

[Balta1701]

Lots of pitchers start out in the bullpen, get spot starts, then go back to the bullpen. Some of them then go on to be starters. What, precisely, do people suppose has been altered by this pattern of development? If anything, bullpen guys should throw a greater percentage of strikes than starters, so I'm not sure how "being jerked around" would result in an inability to throw strikes. Are you saying he gets fatigued easily because of the role switch? He should be able to get stretched out over a season. Seems like the reason all of this happened is that Santiago is a fringe player, not the other way around.

No, I'm saying that he never got the chance to develop his offspeed stuff, and in particular throwing offspeed stuff for strikes, because he never was treated as a starter who might have use of developing multiple offspeed pitches.

[Dick Allen]

Being a 30th round pick is going to put him in all probability in the bullpen, not everyone can start, and if you check his minor league career, early on, he didn't do anything to make an organization say, "you know what, you should be a starter". A WHIP of almost 1.6 in the Sally League, walking over 6 per 9 innings, usually is a recipe for a starter to become a reliever, not the other way around. After he cut his walk rate in half, the Sox gave him a shot as a starter. I just don't see any evidence that shows if he was handled differently he was pretty much assured of being a quality starting pitcher on the major league level. Despite decent stuff, he has had many struggles with excess baserunners and throwing too many pitches.

 

It was fairly obvious Cooper was very frustrated with him.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Being a 30th round pick is going to put him in all probability in the bullpen, not everyone can start, and if you check his minor league career, early on, he didn't do anything to make an organization say, "you know what, you should be a starter". A WHIP of almost 1.6 in the Sally League, walking over 6 per 9 innings, usually is a recipe for a starter to become a reliever, not the other way around. After he cut his walk rate in half, the Sox gave him a shot as a starter. I just don't see any evidence that shows if he was handled differently he was pretty much assured of being a quality starting pitcher on the major league level. Despite decent stuff, he has had many struggles with excess baserunners and throwing too many pitches.

 

It was fairly obvious Cooper was very frustrated with him.

But the other thing you noted right there was that he was able, with work, to cut his walk rate in half.

 

The one thing I'm wondering about is his velocity and whether or not there was an increase through the minors. We saw him bounce between the bullpen and starting and he never gained much, if any velocity out of the pen. If he was a lefty who threw 93 out of high school...well I'm surprised he lasted to the 30th round, and I'd be even more surprised that he didn't get a chance to do at least some starting early.

[Jake]

So you don't think jerking him from bullpen to starter to bullpen to starter back to bullpen and then back to starter at the peak of his development process was mismanging him? Come on man...

 

In 2011, he learns the screwball. It propels him through the minors, making him an incredibly effective starter. He even comes up to the MLB team and looks pretty damn good while throwing lots of screwballs - 31% of his pitches were screwgies.

 

In 2012, we put him in the bullpen. He quits throwing them. He says multiple times that he needs an extended warmup to find the release on the pitch. He does learn a changeup because he says it is much easier to warm up with it. The changeup sucks, but he adapted. Finishes 2012 having thrown 6.3% of his pitches as screwballs.

 

2013 - we put him in the f***ing bullpen again because of DYLAN AXELROD! Yep, no more screwballs. Changeup use becomes more prominent. 4.2% screwballs.

 

So you have a guy whose rise from organizational fodder to potential key cog of the starting rotation was precipitated in large part by his learning the screwball. We put him in the bullpen and he can't warm up with it, especially because he just learned the pitch. It's actually quite impressive that he learned yet another pitch and got by without the pitch that seemed to play the biggest role in him becoming a useful baseball player. At this point, it seems he's just never going to throw the screwball again because it is too much of a risk to try to re-learn it. There's no way you can say that the Sox putting him in the bullpen isn't the reason that that happened.

 

Anyway, it's not a big deal. Even if Hector turns into a good starter, which he very well may, we got what we wanted out of that trade. Eaton is awesome. Who cares? Hector's a great guy and I wish him the best. His control may make him marginal for his entire career or he may put things together and be pretty darn good.

[caulfield12]

In 2011, he learns the screwball. It propels him through the minors, making him an incredibly effective starter. He even comes up to the MLB team and looks pretty damn good while throwing lots of screwballs - 31% of his pitches were screwgies.

 

In 2012, we put him in the bullpen. He quits throwing them. He says multiple times that he needs an extended warmup to find the release on the pitch. He does learn a changeup because he says it is much easier to warm up with it. The changeup sucks, but he adapted. Finishes 2012 having thrown 6.3% of his pitches as screwballs.

 

2013 - we put him in the f***ing bullpen again because of DYLAN AXELROD! Yep, no more screwballs. Changeup use becomes more prominent. 4.2% screwballs.

 

So you have a guy whose rise from organizational fodder to potential key cog of the starting rotation was precipitated in large part by his learning the screwball. We put him in the bullpen and he can't warm up with it, especially because he just learned the pitch. It's actually quite impressive that he learned yet another pitch and got by without the pitch that seemed to play the biggest role in him becoming a useful baseball player. At this point, it seems he's just never going to throw the screwball again because it is too much of a risk to try to re-learn it. There's no way you can say that the Sox putting him in the bullpen isn't the reason that that happened.

 

Anyway, it's not a big deal. Even if Hector turns into a good starter, which he very well may, we got what we wanted out of that trade. Eaton is awesome. Who cares? Hector's a great guy and I wish him the best. His control may make him marginal for his entire career or he may put things together and be pretty darn good.

 

The fact alone that they gave Axelrod more of an opportunity than Santiago shows the fault in their plan/s. Why couldn't we trade Dylan for a starting CFer for the next six seasons?

 

It's one thing if it is someone like Johnson or Beck. But it wasn't.

 

For most of last season, he had one of the Top 15-25 MLB strikeout/IP ratios in the game. That alone is a testament to his ability, because all of the other names on that list were aces/superstars/All-Star/1-2 starters.

Edited April 9, 2014 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

The fact alone that they gave Axelrod more of an opportunity than Santiago shows the fault in their plan/s. Why couldn't we trade Dylan for a starting CFer for the next six seasons?

 

It's one thing if it is someone like Johnson or Beck. But it wasn't.

 

For most of last season, he had one of the Top 20 MLB strikeout/IP ratios in the majors. That alone is a testament to his ability, because all of the other names on that list were aces/superstars/All-Star/1-2 starters.

 

It also pokes a hole into the whole "disrespected because of draft position" thing. Axe was a 30th round pick, and signed by the Sox as a minor league free agent.

[caulfield12]

It also pokes a hole into the whole "disrespected because of draft position" thing. Axe was a 30th round pick, and signed by the Sox as a minor league free agent.

 

And Johan Santana was a Rule 5 draft pick. Doesn't mean he was handled well. Buehrle came from what round...?

 

Part of the issue was the same with Mike Trout. Players from New Jersey aren't well-scouted.

[LittleHurt05]

5 no hit innings for Charlotte tonight