NCAA basketball 2014-15 thread

[Brian]

The answer is not playing a PG at time. Tate isn't a Big 10 level guard and if he didn't play for Simeon in high school he wouldn't have been offered a scholarship.

 

I know someone was on here 2 years ago saying similar things. Also that he can't shoot or create. Just had vision.?

[whitesoxfan99]

I know someone was on here 2 years ago saying similar things. Also that he can't shoot or create. Just had vision.?

 

The shooting is what kills him. Unless you are an absolute freak athlete its impossible to create if you aren't at least a threat.

[RockRaines]

I lied and watched the whole game. Couldn't have played worse and had a chance to come back. Louisville isn't a team I would ride through the tourney. No scoring.

[Jenksismyhero]

I could get behind that. Just let Rice be the primary ball handler. He did it at points last year and he looks even better so far this year.

 

The problem is everyone else on the floor stands around and watches him and it becomes a 1 on 4/5 game. And while Rice is very good, he makes some stupid decisions. Tate at least gets the offense going, even if he's not a major threat. Groce has to tell him to take 2-3 shots a game or they're going to be screwed.

 

My thoughts from last night:

 

1) Cosby the shooter still hasn't shown up. I mean he clearly takes shots, too many, but he's not making any. If he doesn't this is not a tourney team.

 

2) Egwu still fouls too much. And most of them are dumb fouls. I knew that would be a problem.

 

3) Lack of frontcourt depth (also predicted) is clearly the biggest issue this team will have. Colbert is not big enough. Morgan is terrible on defense. They basically have to rely on Egwu and that's it. Thanks Darius Paul for being a moron.

 

4) Hill and Nunn are too passive. They're too good to be no-shows for 10-15 minute stretches.

 

5) Starks is the opposite. As noted on Twitter, he's a rec league player, not a major D1 player. I get that he's not a true PG so he's sort of learning on the job, but his shot selection is so awful.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Buehrle>Wood]

He's improved a lot. He was really f***ing awful as a freshman. Bad hands is a basketball player killer (see also Kwame Brown). It really is too bad Darius Paul f***ed up, sure would be nice to have him backing up Egwu this year.

Egwus core numbers haven't improved since his sophomore year and his advanced metrics have gotten even worse. Everyone thought he'd be a breakout star after the last time we played Miami and he's literally gotten worse. As you mentioned his hands are so, so bad. Some of the worst I've ever seen, and you can't teach good hands. He is also one of the dumbest players I've seen. I cannot understand it, he seems like a smart kid otherwise but he has 0 basketball instinct. Last night he was routinely outsmarted by a guy who has only played the game for a few years.

The problem is everyone else on the floor stands around and watches him and it becomes a 1 on 4/5 game. And while Rice is very good, he makes some stupid decisions. Tate at least gets the offense going, even if he's not a major threat. Groce has to tell him to take 2-3 shots a game or they're going to be screwed.

 

My thoughts from last night:

 

1) Cosby the shooter still hasn't shown up. I mean he clearly takes shots, too many, but he's not making any. If he doesn't this is not a tourney team.

 

2) Egwu still fouls too much. And most of them are dumb fouls. I knew that would be a problem.

 

3) Lack of frontcourt depth (also predicted) is clearly the biggest issue this team will have. Colbert is not big enough. Morgan is terrible on defense. They basically have to rely on Egwu and that's it. Thanks Darius Paul for being a moron.

 

4) Hill and Nunn are too passive. They're too good to be no-shows for 10-15 minute stretches.

 

5) Starks is the opposite. As noted on Twitter, he's a rec league player, not a major D1 player. I get that he's not a true PG so he's sort of learning on the job, but his shot selection is so awful.

1. Cosby I think will be fine. He looks the part. Just a terrible luck stretch right now.

 

2. Yep.

 

3. I still like Colbert as a backup going forward. Black looks good playing down low. Still, yeah, the big weak point of the team.

 

4. Hill played mostly well but he made some really dumb plays yesterday. Nunn needs to become more of a focal point.

 

5. Starks will be better than he showed last night. How could he not be? But yeah PG is our other big problem. The same position imbalances that were Weber's downfall are currently destroying Groce in year 3 as well.

[illinilaw08]

The problem is everyone else on the floor stands around and watches him and it becomes a 1 on 4/5 game. And while Rice is very good, he makes some stupid decisions. Tate at least gets the offense going, even if he's not a major threat. Groce has to tell him to take 2-3 shots a game or they're going to be screwed.

 

My thoughts from last night:

 

1) Cosby the shooter still hasn't shown up. I mean he clearly takes shots, too many, but he's not making any. If he doesn't this is not a tourney team.

 

2) Egwu still fouls too much. And most of them are dumb fouls. I knew that would be a problem.

 

3) Lack of frontcourt depth (also predicted) is clearly the biggest issue this team will have. Colbert is not big enough. Morgan is terrible on defense. They basically have to rely on Egwu and that's it. Thanks Darius Paul for being a moron.

 

4) Hill and Nunn are too passive. They're too good to be no-shows for 10-15 minute stretches.

 

5) Starks is the opposite. As noted on Twitter, he's a rec league player, not a major D1 player. I get that he's not a true PG so he's sort of learning on the job, but his shot selection is so awful.

 

Respectfully, I think some of this is too negative of an assessment.

 

1) We have a large enough sample size to know that Cosby is a good shooter at the major college level. He's in a slump to start the season, but he should get, and make, plenty of shots this year. Didn't have too much of a problem with his shot selection - yeah, there were some bad shots (Starks was the main culprit, but Cosby, Rice and Egwu had some head scratchers as well), but the Illini got a lot of good looks, in rhythm, that they just didn't make.

 

2) Egwu didn't commit that many fouls last year. He was in foul trouble last night, but it didn't seem to impact his aggression on either end. The bigger issue, to me, with Egwu is that he is always moving on both ends of the floor (setting screens, blitzing ball screens, etc.), so he can't be effective for 35 minutes a night. He was clearly gassed at the end and lost a couple rebounds late as a result.

 

3) Can't afford ineffective, foul plagued, games from Black. Colbert has looked better thus far this year, so hopefully he can provide solid minutes as the season progresses. But I agree that Illinois needs something, anything, out of Morgbert or they will have too many nights like last night.

 

4) Thought Hill was very aggressive. He left some points on the court (namely missed free throws), but he attacked the basket pretty consistently. Agreed on Nunn. Hopefully we're just seeing a symptom of his missed offseason. But for that one spurt in the second half, Nunn was largely non-existent.

 

5) Agreed on Starks being a problem. He's the offensive version of Chester Frazier - namely a guy who would be great as a change of pace, off the bench kind of guy. But his shot selection definitely does need to get better.

 

Ultimately, I didn't see anything last night that changed my overall assessment of the team. It was a road loss against a good team where, despite an absolutely horrible shooting first half, the Illini were within a possession a couple times in the second half.

 

There are obvious flaws here that limit the ceiling, but this feels like Groce's best team yet and I still think it's a comfortable tournament team this year.

[Jenksismyhero]

Respectfully, I think some of this is too negative of an assessment.

 

1) We have a large enough sample size to know that Cosby is a good shooter at the major college level. He's in a slump to start the season, but he should get, and make, plenty of shots this year. Didn't have too much of a problem with his shot selection - yeah, there were some bad shots (Starks was the main culprit, but Cosby, Rice and Egwu had some head scratchers as well), but the Illini got a lot of good looks, in rhythm, that they just didn't make.

 

2) Egwu didn't commit that many fouls last year. He was in foul trouble last night, but it didn't seem to impact his aggression on either end. The bigger issue, to me, with Egwu is that he is always moving on both ends of the floor (setting screens, blitzing ball screens, etc.), so he can't be effective for 35 minutes a night. He was clearly gassed at the end and lost a couple rebounds late as a result.

 

3) Can't afford ineffective, foul plagued, games from Black. Colbert has looked better thus far this year, so hopefully he can provide solid minutes as the season progresses. But I agree that Illinois needs something, anything, out of Morgbert or they will have too many nights like last night.

 

4) Thought Hill was very aggressive. He left some points on the court (namely missed free throws), but he attacked the basket pretty consistently. Agreed on Nunn. Hopefully we're just seeing a symptom of his missed offseason. But for that one spurt in the second half, Nunn was largely non-existent.

 

5) Agreed on Starks being a problem. He's the offensive version of Chester Frazier - namely a guy who would be great as a change of pace, off the bench kind of guy. But his shot selection definitely does need to get better.

 

Ultimately, I didn't see anything last night that changed my overall assessment of the team. It was a road loss against a good team where, despite an absolutely horrible shooting first half, the Illini were within a possession a couple times in the second half.

 

There are obvious flaws here that limit the ceiling, but this feels like Groce's best team yet and I still think it's a comfortable tournament team this year.

 

Yeah you're way higher on them than I am. I thought they were a bubble team before the season began and I haven't seen anything to change my mind. They were lucky to win the Baylor game (and I don't think Baylor is very good), and they should have been blown out last night (I don't think Miami is all the great either). They're a team that will look good if they hit threes, but will be pretty average if they don't.

 

That actually is one of my main complaints of Groce. Every single team so far has been so reliant on the three ball. I guess that's just college basketball these days, but it was driving me nuts that he couldn't or wouldn't call a set play to the post when the threes weren't going. I'm not saying get the ball to Egwu and let him post up (because he tried and it didn't work), but why not set up Hill with a set play to get a 12-14 foot jump shot that he's good at? Why not do the same for Black who appears to be able to hit those shots too? Or even Egwu. I'd take an Egwu mid range shot over a post move.

 

And I know there are different schools of thought, but I also feel like Groce is too hands off. He lets guys play and shoot their way out of slumps, but on some nights you gotta take control and basically force a specific guy to shoot from a set play. Don't leave it up to the players to chuck threes as a heat check. In the 2nd half with like 8 or 9 minutes to go Nunn scores 8 or 9 straight, Rice makes a big 3 point play and they're within 2. Rice immediately comes down the floor and chucks a 3 from 5 feet behind the line, 2 seconds into the shot clock. That was a momentum killing shot. And those shots seem to happen way too often with Groce's teams.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[whitesoxfan99]

Egwus core numbers haven't improved since his sophomore year and his advanced metrics have gotten even worse. Everyone thought he'd be a breakout star after the last time we played Miami and he's literally gotten worse. As you mentioned his hands are so, so bad. Some of the worst I've ever seen, and you can't teach good hands. He is also one of the dumbest players I've seen. I cannot understand it, he seems like a smart kid otherwise but he has 0 basketball instinct. Last night he was routinely outsmarted by a guy who has only played the game for a few years.

 

1. Cosby I think will be fine. He looks the part. Just a terrible luck stretch right now.

 

2. Yep.

 

3. I still like Colbert as a backup going forward. Black looks good playing down low. Still, yeah, the big weak point of the team.

 

4. Hill played mostly well but he made some really dumb plays yesterday. Nunn needs to become more of a focal point.

 

5. Starks will be better than he showed last night. How could he not be? But yeah PG is our other big problem. The same position imbalances that were Weber's downfall are currently destroying Groce in year 3 as well.

 

I'd be stunned if Cosby and Starks don't start making shots. Those are guys who are both proven shooters at the high major level.

 

I don't think you need a real PG to be successful but we do need to find more capable big men (although we are perfectly fine at PF going forward and Darius Paul should help a lot at center next year). The key is that if you don't have a good PG you need multiple multi-dimensional guards/wings that can create. Michigan was the best offensive team in the country last year because of their wings. Their PGs made wide open shots at a nice clip but neither Walton or Albrecht was a big part of the offense or creating for others. We will be really good offensively as long as Starks and Cosby both get back to being the 40% 3 pt shooters which they have always been.

[illinilaw08]

Yeah you're way higher on them than I am. I thought they were a bubble team before the season began and I haven't seen anything to change my mind. They were lucky to win the Baylor game (and I don't think Baylor is very good), and they should have been blown out last night (I don't think Miami is all the great either). They're a team that will look good if they hit threes, but will be pretty average if they don't.

 

That actually is one of my main complaints of Groce. Every single team so far has been so reliant on the three ball. I guess that's just college basketball these days, but it was driving me nuts that he couldn't or wouldn't call a set play to the post when the threes weren't going. I'm not saying get the ball to Egwu and let him post up (because he tried and it didn't work), but why not set up Hill with a set play to get a 12-14 foot jump shot that he's good at? Why not do the same for Black who appears to be able to hit those shots too? Or even Egwu. I'd take an Egwu mid range shot over a post move.

 

And I know there are different schools of thought, but I also feel like Groce is too hands off. He lets guys play and shoot their way out of slumps, but on some nights you gotta take control and basically force a specific guy to shoot from a set play. Don't leave it up to the players to chuck threes as a heat check. In the 2nd half with like 8 or 9 minutes to go Nunn scores 8 or 9 straight, Rice makes a big 3 point play and they're within 2. Rice immediately comes down the floor and chucks a 3 from 5 feet behind the line, 2 seconds into the shot clock. That was a momentum killing shot. And those shots seem to happen way too often with Groce's teams.

 

In my opinion, this team is the most talented of Groce's 3 teams (a seven seed and a team that was a missed floater away from being an interesting decision for the selection committee). Thus, based on the results the last two years, I think they should make the tournament comfortably.

 

This year's team is, I think, necessarily going to be dependent on making open jumpers (like most teams in college basketball). When they are making shots, the driving lanes for Rice and Hill are going to open up. Unfortunately, the Abrams injury took away another guy who could take advantage of those driving lanes (maybe Nunn and Cosby can do it in limited spots, but Miami seemed all too aware of how left hand dependent Nunn is at the moment).

 

This team has a definite ceiling. They lack a big guy who can get baskets when you need one late. They lack a point guard who can create off the bounce for teammates. But those are problems that plague a lot of teams in CBB. If this team defends like Groce's teams have the last two years, they are going to be fine - because this team has way more guys who can score than any Groce team has (and frankly probably has more guys who can score since the '06 team?).

 

I like Groce's hands off approach. But I'm sure Rice heard about that terrible shot after the Nunn run. Pulling guys immediately after a bad shot was something we criticized Webber for to no end.

 

Bottom line - anytime you are a team that is heavily dependent on jumpers (as this team is), you are going to have some great wins where everything clicks, and you are going to have some losses like last night. Assuming Cosby and Starks come back to their career averages, and Rice/Hill/Nunn continue to score, this team should have fewer nights like last night and win a good number of games.

[RockRaines]

Tonight's slate of games is bonerific. Just an unreal schedule.

[bmags]

7 games in I am...not impressed by Kim Anderson's coaching chops.

[cabiness42]

Tonight's slate of games is bonerific. Just an unreal schedule.

 

My alma mater is going to absolutely crush my alma mater.

[RockRaines]

My alma mater is going to absolutely crush my alma mater.

 

I also keep forgetting Maryland is in the Big Ten.

[Rowand44]

 

I also keep forgetting Maryland is in the Big Ten.

I will never ever get used to these new conferences. Davidson is in the A10? Ok.

 

But yes, fun slate of Wednesday games and I'll be watching SIU-SIUe.

[southsider2k5]

I will never ever get used to these new conferences. Davidson is in the A10? Ok.

 

But yes, fun slate of Wednesday games and I'll be watching SIU-SIUe.

 

Go Edwardsville!

[cabiness42]

 

I also keep forgetting Maryland is in the Big Ten.

 

Maryland is in the Big Ten, but that has nothing to do with my post.

[RockRaines]

Maryland is in the Big Ten, but that has nothing to do with my post.

Thats why i put spaces between it, duh!!!

[cabiness42]

The ESPN announcer just used "Mike Brey" and "postseason success" in the same sentence.

 

I damn near choked on my drink.

[WilliamTell]

Yup, you guys definitely deserve to be in the top 25 at this point so congrats.

 

Northern Iowa sitting with the most votes out of the top 25 at the moment, hopefully they'll sneak their way in there next week, it'd be nice to have 2 valley teams ranked again.

 

UNI is 7-0 for the first time since 1964 back when they were a division 2 school. They should be pretty good this year. A very old team that goes 9 or 10 deep. I may have to go see my alma mater play this year.

 

[RockRaines]

Iowa just tossing bricks

[Heads22]

Woo, Musberger goes from the Iron Bowl to Ames, Iowa! He's doing Arkansas-ISU tomorrow night in what should be a track meet.

[RockRaines]

Later ACC

[whitesoxfan99]

North Carolina is a really unimpressive team. Really good athletes but the skill level isn't high and no one except for Paige can shoot.

[cabiness42]

Later ACC

 

State of Indiana is 3-0.

[caulfield12]

Iowa finally breaks through with a win against a highly-ranked opponent on the road.

 

There's hope now at least. After losing to Texas and Syracuse last week, it was starting to evaporate a little.

 

 

In the end, as usual, they're probably one more athlete (shooting guard/small forward) away from being a very good team. You can certainly understand why Bo Ryan didn't want to let Uthoff go.

 

And what was a 10-12 man rotation last year has been whittled down to just 6-7 players in 2014. We'll see how well they can hold up in the second half of the B10 season.

 

To make that next step, Oglesby/Jok/Dickerson are going to have to become more dangerous...particularly one of the last two guys.