Worst Mistake of Robin's Young Career?

[witesoxfan]

As is the whole "BABIP" stat. I'm just saying it's not like hitters are hitting line drives right at people, if he were then yes, I'd say he's getting lucky.

 

For pitchers, BABIP has almost always been a constant mainstay in the .290-.300 range with some guys who are outliers putting up BABIPs in the .260s or the .330s. BABIPs of .118 or whatever do not exist over the course of a full season.

 

Chris Sale's career BABIP is .284, and while the BABIP he currently has of .227 will certainly rise, it won't rise an incredible amount. His career opponent's AVG is .222, and that number can range anywhere from about .180 to .280 and pitchers can still find success.

 

Feeky is stating that because Cleto's BABIP is at an untraditional and unprecedented level outside normal expectations, it IS going to rise. There are no "it might" or "it should" but only that it "IS" going to rise. It's the same thing as a guy hitting .100 after April - pretty much anything he does beyond that point, his average is going to rise.

[2nd_city_saint787]

For pitchers, BABIP has almost always been a constant mainstay in the .290-.300 range with some guys who are outliers putting up BABIPs in the .260s or the .330s. BABIPs of .118 or whatever do not exist over the course of a full season.

 

Chris Sale's career BABIP is .284, and while the BABIP he currently has of .227 will certainly rise, it won't rise an incredible amount. His career opponent's AVG is .222, and that number can range anywhere from about .180 to .280 and pitchers can still find success.

 

Feeky is stating that because Cleto's BABIP is at an untraditional and unprecedented level outside normal expectations, it IS going to rise. There are no "it might" or "it should" but only that it "IS" going to rise. It's the same thing as a guy hitting .100 after April - pretty much anything he does beyond that point, his average is going to rise.

 

Meh, Alexei and Dunns .400+ OBP probably isn't sustainable either but that doesn't mean they haven't been good so far.

 

Cleto's performance BABIP won't be sustainable, but the fact of the matter is he's only given up 1 line drive, which tells me teams aren't hitting him hard. Will the flyballs start flyin out? Ya, possibly. Will the GBs start finding the hole? Sure. Will teams start hitting more LDs? Probably, but they haven't so far.

 

I'm the last guy that should be getting in a fangraphs argument though.

[chitownsportsfan]

If Robin is judging the effectiveness of his relievers by ERA, blown saves, saves and SSS then he can just defer the entire thing to Cooper. Robin is in some wierd place with his bullpen, he refuses to go "by the book" in odd circumstances (like bringing Cleto in instead of the guy he designated as his closer) and other times he goes so by the book with platoon matchups that he burns through 4 relievers in one inning.

 

It's like he's stuck in the middle and frankly he's not La Russa or even Ozzie level with his gut. His gut sucks and is wrong. I'd vastly prefer is he just went by the damn book. Make Webb the setup man and Lindstrom is your closer.

 

Boom, bullpen will still suck, but at least it will suck with defined roles.

[witesoxfan]

Meh, Alexei and Dunns .400+ OBP probably isn't sustainable either but that doesn't mean they haven't been good so far.

 

Dunn's is, to some extent, but Ramirez's is absolutely not. The Sox lack of pitching success will even out too, but there are legitimate concerns in the bullpen.

 

Cleto's performance BABIP won't be sustainable, but the fact of the matter is he's only given up 1 line drive, which tells me teams aren't hitting him hard. Will the flyballs start flyin out? Ya, possibly. Will the GBs start finding the hole? Sure. Will teams start hitting more LDs? Probably, but they haven't so far.

 

Teams WILL start hitting more line drives against Cleto. There's no probably about that. The lowest you'll really ever see is 10-11%, and those numbers are from guys who have either lucked into it over 50-70 innings or are truly dominant pitchers. I don't know that it's at the 24.2% clip he's had for his career because that's only 22 MLB innings, but it will surely be higher than 5.9%. More than likely, it will hover in the 15-20% range like roughly 90% of the pitchers in the majors put up.

 

 

 

 

[greg775]

I especially like all the "Robin is the worst," "Robin has no business managing," "Robin never does anything right why is he still here" when the last manager made just as many or more reprehensible moves, but because the Sox had an incredible year all around in 2005, he gets a free pass as a result.

 

All managers will look bad when their players fail, and all managers will look good when their players succeed. There are questionable moves that have been made, but someone is going to have a coronary if they continue to analyze every single move he makes under a microscope.

 

The point of the thread is he ran out of pitchers which is flat out embarrassing if he didn't have a starter willing to help out in a pinch. I still would like to know if Robin EVER played in a game in which his manager ran out of fricking pitchers. Sad to just flat out forfeit a home game as the Sox did. But no games matter this year anyway I guess is management's mantra.

[southsider2k5]

The point of the thread is he ran out of pitchers which is flat out embarrassing if he didn't have a starter willing to help out in a pinch. I still would like to know if Robin EVER played in a game in which his manager ran out of fricking pitchers. Sad to just flat out forfeit a home game as the Sox did. But no games matter this year anyway I guess is management's mantra.

 

How many managers wouldn't run out of pitching in a 14 inning game?

[witesoxfan]

The point of the thread is he ran out of pitchers which is flat out embarrassing if he didn't have a starter willing to help out in a pinch. I still would like to know if Robin EVER played in a game in which his manager ran out of fricking pitchers. Sad to just flat out forfeit a home game as the Sox did. But no games matter this year anyway I guess is management's mantra.

 

Danks pitched that night and was not eligible to pitch again because of baseball rules. Johnson pitched the night before and was entirely unavailable.

 

So...

-Sale was going to start the next day - do you want him throwing 4 innings in a rushed warm up session in a game that can end at any second, thus making him unavailable to start last nights game?

-Do you want to throw Paulino in there, in a rushed warm up session, which then makes him unavailable for Friday night and forces someone like Dylan Axelrod to start?

-Do you want to throw Jose Quintana, in a rushed warm up session, and then take him out of commission for Saturday's game with Axelrod or Rienzo pitching that game, or a young arm in Erik Johnson throwing on short rest?

 

C'mon greg. Put some blame on the players. If this were your boy Ozzie, you'd have put this all on the pitchers like you should be because they walked 15 batters.

 

 

[greg775]

Danks pitched that night and was not eligible to pitch again because of baseball rules. Johnson pitched the night before and was entirely unavailable.

 

So...

-Sale was going to start the next day - do you want him throwing 4 innings in a rushed warm up session in a game that can end at any second, thus making him unavailable to start last nights game?

-Do you want to throw Paulino in there, in a rushed warm up session, which then makes him unavailable for Friday night and forces someone like Dylan Axelrod to start?

-Do you want to throw Jose Quintana, in a rushed warm up session, and then take him out of commission for Saturday's game with Axelrod or Rienzo pitching that game, or a young arm in Erik Johnson throwing on short rest?

 

C'mon greg. Put some blame on the players. If this were your boy Ozzie, you'd have put this all on the pitchers like you should be because they walked 15 batters.

 

My point is I don't remember this ever happening? If anybody can give me an example of a team throwing an infielder out there in a tie game, I'm listening.I'm saying this is a monumental managing mistake. Teams just don't do this.

Edited April 18, 2014 by greg775

[Kyyle23]

My point is I don't remember this ever happening? If anybody can give me an example of a team throwing an infielder out there in a tie game, I'm listening.I'm saying this is a monumental managing mistake. Teams just don't do this.

 

How about two teams running out of pitchers?

 

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/da.../1#.U1GGkym9LCQ

 

Really Greg, you are being ridiculous about this. Bottom line is, you use your bullpen to win, you aren't supposed to plan for extra innings when you are winning in the 8th

[MEANS]

My point is I don't remember this ever happening? If anybody can give me an example of a team throwing an infielder out there in a tie game, I'm listening.I'm saying this is a monumental managing mistake. Teams just don't do this.

 

 

so u started a thread b/c you can't remembered or do some research on your own?

 

WHO CARES

[Vance Law]

I still would like to know if Robin EVER played in a game in which his manager ran out of fricking pitchers.

 

Yes. When Robin himself pitched an inning of scoreless ball for the Dodgers in 2004.

[greg775]

How about two teams running out of pitchers?

 

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/da.../1#.U1GGkym9LCQ

 

Really Greg, you are being ridiculous about this. Bottom line is, you use your bullpen to win, you aren't supposed to plan for extra innings when you are winning in the 8th

You found an example. Thanks.

 

so u started a thread b/c you can't remembered or do some research on your own?

 

WHO CARES

I thought it was an embarrassing mistake for a manager. When you trot a position player out there you are basically conceding a game and we were in first place at the time.

[Vance Law]

My point is I don't remember this ever happening? If anybody can give me an example of a team throwing an infielder out there in a tie game, I'm listening.I'm saying this is a monumental managing mistake. Teams just don't do this.

 

It happens multiple times pretty much every year in the major leagues.

 

Last year Casper Wells pitched an inning for us. After we released him and the Phillies picked him up, he pitched in a game for them.

 

In 2012 Dewayne Wise pitched an inning for us. He had, earlier in the year, pitched in a game for the Yankees when he was with them.

[witesoxfan]

I thought it was an embarrassing mistake for a manager. When you trot a position player out there you are basically conceding a game and we were in first place at the time.

 

Instead of talking about how embarrassing it was, tell us how you would have managed that game differently so that the Sox wouldn't have run out of pitchers and we will tell you how it would be perceived on this site. Otherwise, it's empty criticism and you're not going to be taken seriously.

[Kyyle23]

You found an example. Thanks.

 

 

I thought it was an embarrassing mistake for a manager. When you trot a position player out there you are basically conceding a game and we were in first place at the time.

 

Greg, he had NOBODY left! He put out Garcia not because he wanted to, because he had to! This isn't concession!

[ScottyDo]

[Quin]

This thread is stupid.

 

If it were Ozzie, greg would be saying Ozzie made a great decision to not let the pitchers have long leashes.

[Balta1701]

It happens multiple times pretty much every year in the major leagues.

 

Last year Casper Wells pitched an inning for us. After we released him and the Phillies picked him up, he pitched in a game for them.

 

In 2012 Dewayne Wise pitched an inning for us. He had, earlier in the year, pitched in a game for the Yankees when he was with them.

So what you're saying is that Robin has this problem every year?

[Vance Law]

So what you're saying is that Robin has this problem every year?

 

And the Phillies and the Yankees. As I didn't think there would be a database of these occurrences, I thought I had to rely on games I actually watched. Sox games.

 

But alas:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/fieldPitch.shtml

 

sort by year.

 

My favorite- Vance Law pitched 8 innings in his career

[Eminor3rd]

 

Hahaha, nice work.

[chitownsportsfan]

Hahaha, nice work.

 

I don't get it. By that graph Lindstrom is twice as reliable as Cleto. Anything else is irrelevant.

 

Instead of talking about how embarrassing it was, tell us how you would have managed that game differently so that the Sox wouldn't have run out of pitchers and we will tell you how it would be perceived on this site. Otherwise, it's empty criticism and you're not going to be taken seriously.

 

It's pretty easy and I was putting Robin on blast way before the Sawx tied the game up over at SSS. 1st, you could stick with Downs for more than one better. 2nd, you could not waste Veal in that inning. 3rd, you go to the guy you've designated as your closer in the 9th. 4th, you bring in Webb before extras, instead of Petricka.

 

It's pathetic that Webb and Lindstrom didn't come on until it was too late. By any sane logic (Webb has looked good this year, Lindstrom has a decent track record in his career) those two guys are 2 of your 3 best relievers and they should be pitching in high leverage situations.

 

Robin f***ed it up. The bullpen sucks; Robin sucks at managing bullpens -- those things can both be true, it's not an either or situation.

 

Robin is an awful in game manager IMO and a few other people here are with me, it's not an outlandish position given what we've seen over the past 2+ years out of him. He just doesn't do a good job putting players in positions to succeed, especially out of the bullpen.

[elrockinMT]

Definitely would not have run out of pitchers had they been able to throw the ball for strikes.(minus lindstrom and webb before he gassed)

 

 

MLB network guys criticized Robin but you are right too. We need a bullpen that can throw strikes. We had like 11 walks? Ridiculous

[witesoxfan]

It's pretty easy and I was putting Robin on blast way before the Sawx tied the game up over at SSS. 1st, you could stick with Downs for more than one better. 2nd, you could not waste Veal in that inning. 3rd, you go to the guy you've designated as your closer in the 9th. 4th, you bring in Webb before extras, instead of Petricka.

 

It's pathetic that Webb and Lindstrom didn't come on until it was too late. By any sane logic (Webb has looked good this year, Lindstrom has a decent track record in his career) those two guys are 2 of your 3 best relievers and they should be pitching in high leverage situations.

 

Robin f***ed it up. The bullpen sucks; Robin sucks at managing bullpens -- those things can both be true, it's not an either or situation.

 

Robin is an awful in game manager IMO and a few other people here are with me, it's not an outlandish position given what we've seen over the past 2+ years out of him. He just doesn't do a good job putting players in positions to succeed, especially out of the bullpen.

 

This is much better than willy nilly saying Ventura running out of pitchers is embarrassing. This provides context and evidence as to why. I have never disagreed that Ventura could have handled it better, just that at some point, pitchers have to throw strikes.

[Eminor3rd]

MLB network guys criticized Robin but you are right too. We need a bullpen that can throw strikes. We had like 11 walks? Ridiculous

 

Actually, 15. Two of them were Leury's, but still 13 for the real pitchers.

[Kyyle23]

Actually, 15. Two of them were Leury's, but still 13 for the real pitchers.

 

I think the bullpen had 11, Danks had 4