Worst Mistake of Robin's Young Career?

[ScottyDo]

Well it's a bit simplistic to say based entirely on his current ERA, but I think putting him in in the 8th in a high leverage situation and leaving him in for the 9th was largely based on his perceived good performance this year. Obviously they think he has the stuff as well, but if his ERA more accurately matched his peripherals, i don't think he gets put in there. A degree of guesswork involved there of course.

I think it may have been based on his actual good performance relative to the other absolutely abysmal performances from 80% of the rest of the options. And he was kept in a little longer because there were only 2 guys left in the pen. One of them was the "closer" who has a 25% save percentage so far, and the other pitched the day before.

[Kyyle23]

Well it's a bit simplistic to say based entirely on his current ERA, but I think putting him in in the 8th in a high leverage situation and leaving him in for the 9th was largely based on his perceived good performance this year. Obviously they think he has the stuff as well, but if his ERA more accurately matched his peripherals, i don't think he gets put in there. A degree of guesswork involved there of course.

 

I dont think this is the case at all. I dont think Robin looked at it and said to himself "Cleto has been good today and this season, we should leave him in". I think he looked at it and said "We need to get some outs. Cleto just did that, Lindstrom hasnt really done that. Lets hope Cleto can do that again"

 

Again, everyone has sucked. You could flip a coin, put a pitcher in, and most likely get the same result, WALKS. Nobody percieves Cleto to be any better than his fellow bullpen pitchers.

[southsider2k5]

I think anyone who is blaming Robin for the loss just read the boxscore. If you actually stayed up and watched the game you know it's clearly all on the bullpen performance.

 

PREACH!

[southsider2k5]

Well it's a bit simplistic to say based entirely on his current ERA, but I think putting him in in the 8th in a high leverage situation and leaving him in for the 9th was largely based on his perceived good performance this year. Obviously they think he has the stuff as well, but if his ERA more accurately matched his peripherals, i don't think he gets put in there. A degree of guesswork involved there of course.

 

I agree it was incredibly simplistic. I think it was much more of a case of "Next Up" than anything else. Look at who had pitched already, and who had pitched in previous days. Guesswork is a great way to describe the pen this year. Cooper and Ventura are basically being forced to guess who might be able to do something in a situation because the bullpen has been historically bad. You can't manage over that. If you have seven guys, and six of them are awful, how do you manage that?

[iamshack]

I think anyone who is blaming Robin for the loss just read the boxscore. If you actually stayed up and watched the game you know it's clearly all on the bullpen performance.

I stayed up and watched the game and I blame Robin for the loss.

 

Robin manages a bullpen for s***. I'm not going to call for his head, or go on and on for hours about it, because frankly, it doesn't matter a whole lot this year, and maybe this year will be a learning experience for him as well. But he managed the bullpen for s*** in 2012, I don't think anyone bothered to watch last year, and he's showed signs of the same sort of questionable decision-making again this year.

 

 

[Feeky Magee]

I think it may have been based on his actual good perfor8.94mance relative to the other absolutely abysmal performances from 80% of the rest of the options. And he was kept in a little longer because there were only 2 guys left in the pen. One of them was the "closer" who has a 25% save percentage so far, and the other pitched the day before.

Well yeah. But this is my point: a) his performance hasn't actually been good and b) he has a recent history of being way more terrible than anyone else in the pen. I mean you can quote 25% save percentage, but Lindstrom has been better than Cleto this season, even ignoring their vastly different pasts.

 

I dont think this is the case at all. I dont think Robin looked at it and said to himself "Cleto has been good today and this season, we should leave him in". I think he looked at it and said "We need to get some outs. Cleto just did that, Lindstrom hasnt really done that. Lets hope Cleto can do that again"

 

Again, everyone has sucked. You could flip a coin, put a pitcher in, and most likely get the same result, WALKS. Nobody percieves Cleto to be any better than his fellow bullpen pitchers.

You're saying that between Cleto and Lindstom you're most likely to get the same result in terms of walks?

 

Lindstrom 2014 BB/9: 2.57

Cleto 2014 BB/9: 9.45

 

Lindstrom 2013 BB/9: 3.41

Cleto 2013 BB/9: 8.94 and 4.97 in two AAA stops

[southsider2k5]

Well yeah. But this is my point: a) his performance hasn't actually been good and b) he has a recent history of being way more terrible than anyone else in the pen. I mean you can quote 25% save percentage, but Lindstrom has been better than Cleto this season, even ignoring their vastly different pasts.

 

 

You're saying that between Cleto and Lindstom you're most likely to get the same result in terms of walks?

 

Lindstrom 2014 BB/9: 2.57

Cleto 2014 BB/9: 9.45

 

Lindstrom 2013 BB/9: 3.41

Cleto 2013 BB/9: 8.94 and 4.97 in two AAA stops

 

Just walks?

 

How about the more of the picture?

 

 

Lindstrom 2014 BB/9: 2.57

Cleto 2014 BB/9: 9.45

 

LIndstrom WHIP 1.571

Cleto WHIP 1.350

 

Linstrom ERA 3.86

Cleto ERA 1.35

 

Linstrom H/9 11.6

Cleto H/9 2.7

[Feeky Magee]

Just walks?

 

How about the more of the picture?

 

 

Lindstrom 2014 BB/9: 2.57

Cleto 2014 BB/9: 9.45

 

LIndstrom WHIP 1.571

Cleto WHIP 1.350

 

Linstrom ERA 3.86

Cleto ERA 1.35

 

Linstrom H/9 11.6

Cleto H/9 2.7

Well I was specifically referring to his point about walks. If you're going to consider things like H/9, why not talk about their BABIP? Lindstrom's is .321, Cleto's .118. Cleto's been lucky.

 

Cleto xFIP: 7.57

Lindstrom xFIP: 4.71

 

Cleto FIP: 5.30

Lindstrom FIP: 3.34

 

These are obviously from incredibly small sample sizes, but apparently most people don't want to look at Cleto last season, so there you go.

[Kyyle23]

Well yeah. But this is my point: a) his performance hasn't actually been good and b) he has a recent history of being way more terrible than anyone else in the pen. I mean you can quote 25% save percentage, but Lindstrom has been better than Cleto this season, even ignoring their vastly different pasts.

 

 

You're saying that between Cleto and Lindstom you're most likely to get the same result in terms of walks?

 

Lindstrom 2014 BB/9: 2.57

Cleto 2014 BB/9: 9.45

 

Lindstrom 2013 BB/9: 3.41

Cleto 2013 BB/9: 8.94 and 4.97 in two AAA stops

 

 

Not just walks, just general sucktitude and ineptness. You can focus on walks all you want, but none of these pitchers have done anything to inspire any sort of faith in any of them.

[southsider2k5]

Well I was specifically referring to his point about walks. If you're going to consider things like H/9, why not talk about their BABIP? Lindstrom's is .321, Cleto's .118. Cleto's been lucky.

 

Cleto xFIP: 7.57

Lindstrom xFIP: 4.71

 

Cleto FIP: 5.30

Lindstrom FIP: 3.34

 

These are obviously from incredibly small sample sizes, but apparently most people don't want to look at Cleto last season, so there you go.

 

So where he is good, he is lucky, and where he is bad, it is permanent? I get you have it in for Cleto, but again this pen is soooo bad right now. If a starter goes 6/7 innings, this team WILL have a bad pitcher throwing in a high leverage situation. It is a statistical certainty. The only question is which bad pitcher.

 

Lindstrom has sucked this year. So have Downs, and Bellisario, and Veal. That is five of your seven relievers who have been flat out bad. Then you come to Petricka who has been meh. His peripherials have been scary, and almost 6 walks/9IP. That leaves you Webb. That's it. Seeing as he can't go in every situation, in every game, he only has so many uses. Then add to that he is a rookie with a total of 15 major league games, and remember that the Sox usually ease rookies into the big jobs in the pen. Even Bobby Jenks spent time in middle relief before closing.

 

Centering an argument on just walks from the previous season, and a guess at the managers state of mind when picking a reliever is just silly.

 

Pretty much when Cooper/Ventura go to the pen right now they are picking if they want to get kicked in the right testicle or left one, because they know it is coming.

[iamshack]

Not just walks, just general sucktitude and ineptness. You can focus on walks all you want, but none of these pitchers have done anything to inspire any sort of faith in any of them.

One point I'll raise is that this current Red Sox team has struggled a bit to score runs. Weather conditions were poor. But they do take pitches - they are one of the best teams in baseball at working the count, being patient, taking walks.

 

Allowing a guy like Lindstrom to come in and just throw strikes to start off the 9th was the pretty easy answer. The Red Sox had scored 3 runs against us in the previous 17 innings. They had ZERO hits since the first inning. The offense they generated in the 8th was all due to walks. So what do we do? Start out the 9th with Ricky f***ing Vaughn throwing as hard as he can with no idea where the hell it is going. THE ONLY OFFENSE THEY CAN GENERATE IS BY DRAWING WALKS. So let's give them EXACTLY what the f***ing want.

 

If he'd had just put someone in who could throw strikes, that would have been a 3-2 victory.

[witesoxfan]

So where he is good, he is lucky, and where he is bad, it is permanent? I get you have it in for Cleto, but again this pen is soooo bad right now. If a starter goes 6/7 innings, this team WILL have a bad pitcher throwing in a high leverage situation. It is a statistical certainty. The only question is which bad pitcher.

 

Lindstrom has sucked this year. So have Downs, and Bellisario, and Veal. That is five of your seven relievers who have been flat out bad. Then you come to Petricka who has been meh. His peripherials have been scary, and almost 6 walks/9IP. That leaves you Webb. That's it. Seeing as he can't go in every situation, in every game, he only has so many uses. Then add to that he is a rookie with a total of 15 major league games, and remember that the Sox usually ease rookies into the big jobs in the pen. Even Bobby Jenks spent time in middle relief before closing.

 

Centering an argument on just walks from the previous season, and a guess at the managers state of mind when picking a reliever is just silly.

 

Pretty much when Cooper/Ventura go to the pen right now they are picking if they want to get kicked in the right testicle or left one, because they know it is coming.

 

Cleto can be good, and I don't think Feeky is suggesting he can't be. All he's saying is that, thus far, Cleto is lucky to only be allowing 2 hits per 9 and he's lucky his ERA is as low as it is. The idea that you can continue to walk guys and not strike them out consistently while still preventing runs is, frankly, preposterous.

 

No one in the bullpen has been good, and Cleto starting the 9th versus Lindstrom is picking your own poison, so I won't argue that. Just that, despite the good ERA, Cleto has also not been very good this season like pretty much everyone else in the pen.

[hammerhead johnson]

Feeky, I'm sorry that you have to put up with that.

 

Yeah, I cringed when I saw Cleto coming out for the 9th. Lindstrom and Webb were available, and while the pen may have been just about used up, I think it would have been preferable to go for it right then and there. If Leury had to pitch in the 11th, then so be it. It's a much easier loss to concede.

 

Put it this way. During the commercial break, I was thinking 9-6. But then the game came back on, and it was a major downer.

[Feeky Magee]

Not just walks, just general sucktitude and ineptness. You can focus on walks all you want, but none of these pitchers have done anything to inspire any sort of faith in any of them.

Look I agree the bullpen is awful, but you don't then just say it doesn't matter who they throw out there. Lindstrom has a long history of being a decent reliever. Webb is clearly very good. Petricka has been decent since transitioning to a reliever (he walks too many and he doesn't walk nearly as many as Cleto). They should all obviously be better options in high-leverage situations than Cleto right now.

 

I get the Cleto gamble. He's clearly got electric stuff. But he simply hasn't shown ability to get consistent results from it. Everyone else in the pen has shown this ability more than he has. Therefore he should be used in the lowest-leverage possible until he does. That's all.

 

So where he is good, he is lucky, and where he is bad, it is permanent? I get you have it in for Cleto, but again this pen is soooo bad right now. If a starter goes 6/7 innings, this team WILL have a bad pitcher throwing in a high leverage situation. It is a statistical certainty. The only question is which bad pitcher.

 

Lindstrom has sucked this year. So have Downs, and Bellisario, and Veal. That is five of your seven relievers who have been flat out bad. Then you come to Petricka who has been meh. His peripherials have been scary, and almost 6 walks/9IP. That leaves you Webb. That's it. Seeing as he can't go in every situation, in every game, he only has so many uses. Then add to that he is a rookie with a total of 15 major league games, and remember that the Sox usually ease rookies into the big jobs in the pen. Even Bobby Jenks spent time in middle relief before closing.

 

Centering an argument on just walks from the previous season, and a guess at the managers state of mind when picking a reliever is just silly.

 

Pretty much when Cooper/Ventura go to the pen right now they are picking if they want to get kicked in the right testicle or left one, because they know it is coming.

Anyone would say a .118 BABIP is lucky. It's not a case of picking and choosing, it's simple statistical analysis. You call Petricka's peripherals scary and yet his FIP and xFIPs are in the low 3s. He's walking too many yeah, but he's striking out about twice as many batters as Cleto and he doesn't have an unsustainable BABIP.

[Kyyle23]

One point I'll raise is that this current Red Sox team has struggled a bit to score runs. Weather conditions were poor. But they do take pitches - they are one of the best teams in baseball at working the count, being patient, taking walks.

 

Allowing a guy like Lindstrom to come in and just throw strikes to start off the 9th was the pretty easy answer. The Red Sox had scored 3 runs against us in the previous 17 innings. They had ZERO hits since the first inning. The offense they generated in the 8th was all due to walks. So what do we do? Start out the 9th with Ricky f***ing Vaughn throwing as hard as he can with no idea where the hell it is going. THE ONLY OFFENSE THEY CAN GENERATE IS BY DRAWING WALKS. So let's give them EXACTLY what the f***ing want.

 

If he'd had just put someone in who could throw strikes, that would have been a 3-2 victory.

 

I stated previously that I thought Lindstrom should have started the 9th. He is the closer(now), and he should have been given the opportunity to close the game.

 

But again, pick your poison with this BP. it doesnt matter what brand, it is still going to hurt

 

Look I agree the bullpen is awful, but you don't then just say it doesn't matter who they throw out there. Lindstrom has a long history of being a decent reliever. Webb is clearly very good. Petricka has been decent since transitioning to a reliever (he walks too many and he doesn't walk nearly as many as Cleto). They should all obviously be better options in high-leverage situations than Cleto right now.

 

I am really not a fan of Lindstrom at all. I dont think he is a decent reliever, i think he is very hittable and prone to coughing up leads. The faster he is out of the 9th inning discussion, the happier I will be

[Vance Law]

I found him not challenging that KC home run last week a greater mistake than managing his crap b.p. last night.

 

The manager has pretty much zero say in replay challenges. It's why they consistently refer to the manager taking a very slow walk out to the umpire while looking back for a sign from the people in the booth who are watching it on tv.

[iamshack]

I stated previously that I thought Lindstrom should have started the 9th. He is the closer(now), and he should have been given the opportunity to close the game.

 

But again, pick your poison with this BP. it doesnt matter what brand, it is still going to hurt

 

 

 

I am really not a fan of Lindstrom at all. I dont think he is a decent reliever, i think he is very hittable and prone to coughing up leads. The faster he is out of the 9th inning discussion, the happier I will be

Yeah, I know, I was more referring to some of the other posters.

 

It's not an incredible observation to recognize that this bullpen is shaky at best right now, but that doesn't mean you throw anything at the wall and hope it sticks.

 

Robin should be a bit more intuitive or aware of what the hell he is doing, is all I am saying.

[caulfield12]

The only time Cleto has looked REALLY good was against the heart of the order in the 8th inning in Colorado with the game tied.

Edited April 18, 2014 by caulfield12

[Feeky Magee]

I am really not a fan of Lindstrom at all. I dont think he is a decent reliever, i think he is very hittable and prone to coughing up leads. The faster he is out of the 9th inning discussion, the happier I will be

So do you think his results have not been good enough or they are misleading, because they look like the results of a pretty decent reliever to me?

[Kyyle23]

So do you think his results have not been good enough or they are misleading, because they look like the results of a pretty decent reliever to me?

 

He makes me ill when he enters a game. Just like Linebrink did, when he comes in im surprised if he gets the job done.

[Feeky Magee]

He makes me ill when he enters a game. Just like Linebrink did, when he comes in im surprised if he gets the job done.

Right.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Haven't had an issue with him and challenges. They all suck. They've f***ed many up this year.

 

My issue is with his bullpen decisions at times

[2nd_city_saint787]

I know it was ST, but Cleto only had 3 walks in 10.2 inning through ST.....That has to account for something. Perhaps showing a little more confidence in him will do him some good.

 

Actually going to his fangraphs page, I see he's given up 1 line drive to the 27 batters he's faced. So it's not like he's getting hit hard.

[witesoxfan]

I know it was ST, but Cleto only had 3 walks in 10.2 inning through ST.....That has to account for something. Perhaps showing a little more confidence in him will do him some good.

 

Actually going to his fangraphs page, I see he's given up 1 line drive to the 27 batters he's faced. So it's not like he's getting hit hard.

 

Sample size, sample size, sample size.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Sample size, sample size, sample size.

 

As is the whole "BABIP" stat. I'm just saying it's not like hitters are hitting line drives right at people, if he were then yes, I'd say he's getting lucky.