Worst Mistake of Robin's Young Career?

[Vance Law]

We're talking about a bunch of pitchers, most of whom haven't pitched 8 innings yet this season. Some not even 4. The roles, to any extent that that matters, are sorting themselves out. The bullpen currently sucks. You can't just hide five pitchers.

 

There are people complaining that the great Daniel Webb was not used earlier in the game and somehow contorting themselves to ignore the fact that Webb immediately gave up a run when he got in the game.

[CyAcosta41]

And the Phillies and the Yankees. As I didn't think there would be a database of these occurrences, I thought I had to rely on games I actually watched. Sox games.

 

But alas:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/fieldPitch.shtml

 

sort by year.

 

My favorite- Vance Law pitched 8 innings in his career

 

GREAT resource.

 

My favorite is the immortal Mario Mendoza (he of the .200 B.A. "Mendoza Line" fame -- played parts of 9 years in the Bigs and 5 times his B.A. was under .200). Nice to know that there is a Mendoza Line for ERA as well -- he had 1 appearance, pitched 2 innings, 3 runs, so a 13.50 E.R.A.

 

As many others have said, this kind of problem, happens often in exactly this kind of setting -- hotly contested game, playing match ups in the late innings frequently, then running out of pitchers because the game winds up going unexpectedly long.

 

IMO there is shared blame for this -- on the one batter, one walk pitchers for ... SUCKING. And on Ventura, not for this happening in general (because it can, will, and does happen regularly in the Bigs), but because his refusal to have bullpen roles makes it much more likely to happen. We may never have got to extra innings if Lindstrom had pitched the 9th. As presently constituted, nobody not named Webb or Lindstrom should EVER see the 8th or the 9th. Then, we really need a designated long reliever on the staff (Axelrod or similar). If the dude doesn't pitch early because of the blowout, he's almost always available as the last guy out of the pen in just this kind of game. Once we blew through all the other relievers, the long man pitches as long as necessary 5, 6, 7 or more innings ... whatever it takes.

 

My biggest problem with RV as a manager isn't that he makes the occasional mistake, but I don't have great confidence that he's actually LEARNING from him mistakes and making adjustments.

[caulfield12]

We're talking about a bunch of pitchers, most of whom haven't pitched 8 innings yet this season. Some not even 4. The roles, to any extent that that matters, are sorting themselves out. The bullpen currently sucks. You can't just hide five pitchers.

 

There are people complaining that the great Daniel Webb was not used earlier in the game and somehow contorting themselves to ignore the fact that Webb immediately gave up a run when he got in the game.

 

 

Back-up QB syndrome again.

He has been annointed the "closer of the future" by many, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course, there aren't very many good or even possible choices, other than Nate Jones. Belisario's throwing almost every single pitch up there at the same speed, 95. Not working out so well. (I'm honestly starting to think Takatsu could go out there today and be more effective for one or two months, until the league readjusted to him).

 

Things are so bad that Cleto got the job simply because of one really nasty performance in a tie game in Colorado. Mind you, that wasn't even a save situation, but he made CarGo look silly so...hey...MAYBE he can get a save. The thinking being by Robin...well, I just can't run Lindstrom out there AGAIN and have the entire team expecting a blown save, we might as well hope and pray Cleto's stuff can get us through an inning and he won't be wild. We all see how well that worked out.

 

It was kind of like the Leury Garcia outing. He got those two quick outs, but as soon as the first walk happened...he started overthinking, Cooper had to go out on the mound, you just knew something bad was going to happen.

[caulfield12]

GREAT resource.

 

My favorite is the immortal Mario Mendoza (he of the .200 B.A. "Mendoza Line" fame -- played parts of 9 years in the Bigs and 5 times his B.A. was under .200). Nice to know that there is a Mendoza Line for ERA as well -- he had 1 appearance, pitched 2 innings, 3 runs, so a 13.50 E.R.A.

 

As many others have said, this kind of problem, happens often in exactly this kind of setting -- hotly contested game, playing match ups in the late innings frequently, then running out of pitchers because the game winds up going unexpectedly long.

 

IMO there is shared blame for this -- on the one batter, one walk pitchers for ... SUCKING. And on Ventura, not for this happening in general (because it can, will, and does happen regularly in the Bigs), but because his refusal to have bullpen roles makes it much more likely to happen. We may never have got to extra innings if Lindstrom had pitched the 9th. As presently constituted, nobody not named Webb or Lindstrom should EVER see the 8th or the 9th. Then, we really need a designated long reliever on the staff (Axelrod or similar). If the dude doesn't pitch early because of the blowout, he's almost always available as the last guy out of the pen in just this kind of game. Once we blew through all the other relievers, the long man pitches as long as necessary 5, 6, 7 or more innings ... whatever it takes.

 

My biggest problem with RV as a manager isn't that he makes the occasional mistake, but I don't have great confidence that he's actually LEARNING from him mistakes and making adjustments.

 

 

 

And that should be Petricka's role on this particular roster (long man), it's just that other pitchers are going so badly he's being forced into key situations because Ventura can't rely on anyone.

 

Granted, if someone like Axelrod or Rienzo was out there in the pen, it would probably be much clearer in Robin's mind what that pitcher's role should be.

 

With Petricka, he's shown enough stuff that Robin has been forced to move him up into a key 7th/8th inning set-up role because of massive failures by the likes of Downs and Veal, not to mention Belisario and Lindstrom.

[ron883]

The worst mistake of Robin's young career was displeasing greg by not looking exactly like this

 

[ScottyDo]

I don't get it. By that graph Lindstrom is twice as reliable as Cleto. Anything else is irrelevant.

The point of that graph is that the relative difference between Cleto and Lindstrom is negligible when they're orders of magnitude below an acceptable level. The choice between the two is completely irrelevant even if Lindstrom is twice as reliable as Cleto (in reality, he's not).

[chitownsportsfan]

MLB network guys criticized Robin but you are right too. We need a bullpen that can throw strikes. We had like 11 walks? Ridiculous

 

Matt Thornton was a real luxury to have around as a LHP that could dominate righties. Sox could really use a guy like that. You got a dominant LHP that strikes out Ortiz then breezes through the righties makes Robin look pretty smart, I'll give him that.

[GreenSox]

He's made many- he's basically an amateur.

Heck, tonight he left his starting pitcher in to give up 13 hits in less than 4 innings. Didn't even try to win the game.

[greg775]

Yes. When Robin himself pitched an inning of scoreless ball for the Dodgers in 2004.

Was it a tie game? I'm talking about a tie game not when one team is getting drilled 15-2 and a position player pitches.

 

It happens multiple times pretty much every year in the major leagues.

 

Last year Casper Wells pitched an inning for us. After we released him and the Phillies picked him up, he pitched in a game for them.

 

In 2012 Dewayne Wise pitched an inning for us. He had, earlier in the year, pitched in a game for the Yankees when he was with them.

Again, in tie games?? I disagree it happens every year. Blowouts, sure.

 

Instead of talking about how embarrassing it was, tell us how you would have managed that game differently so that the Sox wouldn't have run out of pitchers and we will tell you how it would be perceived on this site. Otherwise, it's empty criticism and you're not going to be taken seriously.

I defer to the poster who gave you an example. But I would have done what Stoney suggested. Get a pitcher to volunteer to take one for the team. A starter.

 

MLB network guys criticized Robin but you are right too. We need a bullpen that can throw strikes. We had like 11 walks? Ridiculous

 

Hmmm, MLB agrees with me? Not all my positions are that outlandish. Seriously, folks, I find it disturbing that a lot of posters seem to again have just written off the entire season and Robin gets another free pass. So we are in a rebuild and pretty soon we're going to be hoping for all losses again.

Notice we haven't won since the "give-up" game. I guess any team that is trotting Paulino out there as a starter perhaps really has given up on winning a very very mediocre division. I'm very frustrated by that "give up" game but I'll drop it if you all will consider the topic and the thread over and done with.

Edited April 19, 2014 by greg775

[ScottyDo]

He's made many- he's basically an amateur.

Heck, tonight he left his starting pitcher in to give up 13 hits in less than 4 innings. Didn't even try to win the game.

Sarcasm?

[Feeky Magee]

The point of that graph is that the relative difference between Cleto and Lindstrom is negligible when they're orders of magnitude below an acceptable level. The choice between the two is completely irrelevant even if Lindstrom is twice as reliable as Cleto (in reality, he's not).

No, it's not.

 

And Lindstrom's ERA for the last 3 years has been 3.12, 2.68 and 3.00. His xFIPs are in the high 3s and FIP in the low 3s.

 

In an incredibly small sample size this year, his ERA is in the high 3s, his xFIP in the high 4s and his FIP in the low 3s.

 

What about any of that is orders of magnitude below an acceptable level to you? He's obviously not elite, but he's an above-average major league reliever, and has to this point shown many magnitudes more of performance than Cleto has.

[ScottyDo]

No, it's not.

 

And Lindstrom's ERA for the last 3 years has been 3.12, 2.68 and 3.00. His xFIPs are in the high 3s and FIP in the low 3s.

 

In an incredibly small sample size this year, his ERA is in the high 3s, his xFIP in the high 4s and his FIP in the low 3s.

 

What about any of that is orders of magnitude below an acceptable level to you? He's obviously not elite, but he's an above-average major league reliever, and has to this point shown many magnitudes more of performance than Cleto has.

Downs has not had an ERA above 3.15 since 2006. Downs clearly does not have the ability to get people out at this point in time. Same thing with Lindstrom. He may revert to form at some point, but there's no reason to expect anything but failure at this point. He did make it into the game eventually, remember, and guess what happened?

Edited April 19, 2014 by ScottyDo

[Feeky Magee]

Downs has not had an ERA above 3.15 since 2006. Downs clearly does not have the ability to get people out at this point in time. Same thing with Lindstrom. He may revert to form at some point, but there's no reason to expect anything but failure at this point. He did make it into the game eventually, remember, and guess what happened?

Well it's not the same thing with Lindstrom. Downs's ERA/FIP/xFIP is 10.80/6.35/7.18/. Lindstrom's is 3.86/3.34/4.71. Not to mention that Downs is 4 years older than Lindstrom and much more likely to become ineffective overnight. And, er, Lindstrom made it into the game eventually and gave up 1 hit, 0 walks and 0 earned runs over 2 innings?

[Eminor3rd]

He's made many- he's basically an amateur.

Heck, tonight he left his starting pitcher in to give up 13 hits in less than 4 innings. Didn't even try to win the game.

 

Yeah, tonight was way worse. For example, he had Semien, Abreu, AND Vicedo all go 0 for 4. What kind of strategy is that?

[ScottyDo]

Well it's not the same thing with Lindstrom. Downs's ERA/FIP/xFIP is 10.80/6.35/7.18/. Lindstrom's is 3.86/3.34/4.71. Not to mention that Downs is 4 years older than Lindstrom and much more likely to become ineffective overnight. And, er, Lindstrom made it into the game eventually and gave up 1 hit, 0 walks and 0 earned runs over 2 innings?

Gave up the game-tying hit. I mean if you want to dig into the peripherals, Lindstrom (along with Belly and Veal) are among the last in MLB relievers in swing-and-miss %, leading to a woeful 2.57 K/9 so far. I'm not saying that's sustainable, but right now the dude is just not missing bats. And even if the runners were inherited, he certainly didn't earn anyone's love and adoration the other night.

 

What it comes down to is this:

 

I have never seen a box score that more obviously screams: "WOW, THOSE PLAYERS WERE JUST GOD AWFUL THAT NIGHT! IT'S AMAZING THEY WENT 14 INNINGS SOMEHOW!" You can criticize the manager for that if you want, but I think you'll have way more valid opportunities to do so in the future. This was just an abysmal night for Sox players, no matter how the manager played it.

 

Believe it or not, I'm not even really a Robin defender. I just think managers have limited influence and are thus overblamed when crap goes wrong. This monstrosity of a bullpen performance is a perfect example. If Ventura had an even mildly competent bullpen that night, they manage to squeeze through those last couple of innings without walking a bajillion guys and coughing up a gift-wrapped win.

[Feeky Magee]

Gave up the game-tying hit. I mean if you want to dig into the peripherals, Lindstrom (along with Belly and Veal) are among the last in MLB relievers in swing-and-miss %, leading to a woeful 2.57 K/9 so far. I'm not saying that's sustainable, but right now the dude is just not missing bats. And even if the runners were inherited, he certainly didn't earn anyone's love and adoration the other night.

 

What it comes down to is this:

 

I have never seen a box score that more obviously screams: "WOW, THOSE PLAYERS WERE JUST GOD AWFUL THAT NIGHT! IT'S AMAZING THEY WENT 14 INNINGS SOMEHOW!" You can criticize the manager for that if you want, but I think you'll have way more valid opportunities to do so in the future. This was just an abysmal night for Sox players, no matter how the manager played it.

 

Believe it or not, I'm not even really a Robin defender. I just think managers have limited influence and are thus overblamed when crap goes wrong. This monstrosity of a bullpen performance is a perfect example. If Ventura had an even mildly competent bullpen that night, they manage to squeeze through those last couple of innings without walking a bajillion guys and coughing up a gift-wrapped win.

I'm not even really blaming Ventura for it going 14 innings, my pretty much sole point has been that Cleto is the last guy that should be up in a high-leverage situation.

[GreenSox]

Robin was not a good choice to begin with, he has shown no improvement in his OJT. The Sox made it worse by extending him. No way should you run out of pitchers in a 14 inning game.

This sums it up nicely.

I also think Cooper is at least 1/3 manager of this team, which is one reason the Sox hired a weak manager, instead of someone like Francona.