Jose Abreu general discussion

[lasttriptotulsa]

That surprises me, I figured he would have approached that in 03 when the Marlins took out the Cubs, he was great

 

He was pretty good that year. 3.8 WAR, 133 wRC+. Better year than most players will ever have.

Edited June 27, 2014 by lasttriptotulsa

[southsider2k5]

The point was about who was better in their prime, not who will have a better career.

 

Konerko's prime lasted about 10 years. If you want to narrow it down to peak, Konerko had back to back 40 homer seasons, backed up with two more years of 30 homers. He even had two more 30+ homer seasons late in his career.

 

Again, I think people are really underestimating how good he was, and how long he was that good.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Konerko's prime lasted about 10 years. If you want to narrow it down to peak, Konerko had back to back 40 homer seasons, backed up with two more years of 30 homers. He even had two more 30+ homer seasons late in his career.

 

Again, I think people are really underestimating how good he was, and how long he was that good.

 

Personally I feel that Sox fans have always overrated Konerko.

[flavum]

Personally I feel that Sox fans have always overrated Konerko.

 

Top 2% of all time.

 

6-time all-star

 

ALCS MVP

 

I think he's been fairly rated, and he deserves his number retirement.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Top 2% of all time.

 

6-time all-star

 

ALCS MVP

 

I think he's been fairly rated, and he deserves his number retirement.

 

I agree he should have his number retired. One of the best Sox players ever. But there have been honest discussions on this board about who was better, Paul Konerko or Frank Thomas. While the vast majority agreed it was obviously Frank, the fact that the conversation existed says a lot about certain Sox fans. There are also people who legitamately believe Konerko is a Hall of Famer.

[southsider2k5]

Personally I feel that Sox fans have always overrated Konerko.

 

You are talking about one of the top 5 hitters in franchise history, and just short of a Hall of Famer type of career.

[cabiness42]

You are talking about one of the top 5 hitters in franchise history, and just short of a Hall of Famer type of career.

 

Top 5 hitters in franchise history is unfortunately a very low bar to reach, and I don't think he gets enough HOF votes to say he is "just short".

 

Look, I love Paulie, but for all but 2-3 of his seasons, he was only good enough to be the second best hitter on a contending team.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Personally I feel that Sox fans have always overrated Konerko.

You had the abysmal 2003 Paulie that slept all season long during what could have been a special season thanks to the Colon-Loaiza-Buehrle 3-headed monster at the top of the rotation plus two late inning forces in Flash Gordon and Damaso Marte.

 

You also had 2008 Paulie that was IIRC determined to play through injury as we were trying to back into the playoffs/be less worse than Minnesota. However IIRC he did do pretty well in the playoffs that year, although it was only 4 games.

 

Then you had 2012 Paulie who again took the field and helped slump the Sox out of the playoff picture. The one big positive was the near-.400 batting average through most of the first half of the season.

 

Also you had 2007 Paulie who looked like he might be getting close to done, and 2013 and 2014 Konerko who pretty much is/was done.

 

All in all you've had a lot of periods of disappointments with Paulie, several of which occurred during what was or what could have been playoff-type seasons. I think for that reason Paulie may appear to be overrated to some based off of his terrific 2005 regular season where he really anchored that lineup and his huge performance really all throughout the playoffs.

 

But in the end, all you have to do is look at how long he played here and the numbers he put up as a whole. He's among franchise leaders in several major offensive categories and his numbers here are so great that he if nothing else is firmly in that group you would call "The Hall of Very Good" as an overall performer. So really I don't think he's overrated, I think Sox fans respect him as much as they should (a lot) and that his number 14 belongs up there for sure immediately.

 

What I don't like this season are/were 2 things: 1) Dunn taking PAs away forcing people like that guy at SSS to write s***f***er (new term) articles about Paulie taking up a valuable roster space when in all reality it was always Dunn that was the turd, and 2) Paulie being Southpaw this year, this big green carpet looking thing that isn't a baseball player. Put him in the games more, especially at the expense of Giant Turd i.e. Adam Dunn, the guy deserves the respect and the fans deserve the opportunity to at least see him a bit more during his final season, especially since overall the product is absolute garbage anyway. I really don't think it's a stretch that Paulie could put up some halfway decent numbers this year in limited-but-still-notable playing time, because although the body may not be what it once was, the professional approach to hitting still is there.

[Eminor3rd]

Top 5 hitters in franchise history is unfortunately a very low bar to reach, and I don't think he gets enough HOF votes to say he is "just short".

 

Look, I love Paulie, but for all but 2-3 of his seasons, he was only good enough to be the second best hitter on a contending team.

 

I'd agree. Long career as an above average player, historic within the franchise, but very safely below HOF standards. The bar is just really high for guys that don't contribute anything at all defensively.

[southsider2k5]

Top 5 hitters in franchise history is unfortunately a very low bar to reach, and I don't think he gets enough HOF votes to say he is "just short".

 

Look, I love Paulie, but for all but 2-3 of his seasons, he was only good enough to be the second best hitter on a contending team.

 

And if Abreu has anywhere near that kind of impact, it will be impressive.

[Eminor3rd]

And if Abreu has anywhere near that kind of impact, it will be impressive.

 

Which, as your original point, I also support wholeheartedly.

[lasttriptotulsa]

You are talking about one of the top 5 hitters in franchise history, and just short of a Hall of Famer type of career.

 

I don't want it to seem like I'm bashing Konerko because I'm not, but the only thing he has going for him Hall of Fame wise is the counting stats and a World Series. He has never won any awards, never led the league in anything and his rate stats are not that great. His average fWAR for his career is about 1.9. That rates as average or even slightly below average. JAWS lists him as the 81st greatest 1B to play the game. He's 198th all time in OPS and just 381st all time in OPS+. As a 1B, that's not that great.

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

I don't want it to seem like I'm bashing Konerko because I'm not, but the only thing he has going for him Hall of Fame wise is the counting stats and a World Series. He has never won any awards, never led the league in anything and his rate stats are not that great. His average fWAR for his career is about 1.9. That rates as average or even slightly below average. JAWS lists him as the 81st greatest 1B to play the game. He's 198th all time in OPS and just 381st all time in OPS+. As a 1B, that's not that great.

That really says it all right there.

 

There are 30 teams in the league now, and even though there used to be less, this game in terms of recorded history is what, 120-130 years old? And to top it off you had the steroid era inflating numbers, where pure hitters like Paulie, who really started to come into his own as that period was ending, would have statistically looked greater. Being #81 in the HISTORY of the game at any position is a f***ing amazing accomplishment. No, he shouldn't be in the Hall, but he's still been an incredible player and a huge piece of the heart of this franchise.

[southsider2k5]

That really says it all right there.

 

There are 30 teams in the league now, and even though there used to be less, this game in terms of recorded history is what, 120-130 years old? And to top it off you had the steroid era inflating numbers, where pure hitters like Paulie, who really started to come into his own as that period was ending, would have statistically looked greater. Being #81 in the HISTORY of the game at any position is a f***ing amazing accomplishment. No, he shouldn't be in the Hall, but he's still been an incredible player and a huge piece of the heart of this franchise.

 

And that is the basic point. You can't just throw Konerko out there like he has been garbage. If Abreu has that kind of a peak, or career, this has been one of the best signings in franchise history. Those guys don't come along every day.

[lasttriptotulsa]

And that is the basic point. You can't just throw Konerko out there like he has been garbage. If Abreu has that kind of a peak, or career, this has been one of the best signings in franchise history. Those guys don't come along every day.

 

I don't think anybody is saying that. I think everyone agrees Konerko should have his number retired and will go down as one the greatest White Sox players ever. The point I was making is that Abreu is already as good if not better than Konerko was at his best. Could the league catch up to Abreu, sure. Could he get hurt and never play again, sure. Could this start be a fluke, sure (we've seen it before). One thing I do know is that when Abreu comes up to bat, I stop what I'm doing to make sure I see him hit. I could never say that about Konerko or any other Sox player since Frank Thomas.

 

I have watched Abreu enough already to know that if he does not end up as a far superior player to Konerko, I will be disappointed. I know the original discussion involved Rizzo too, but I honestly haven't watched him enough to make a judgement other than from looking at the numbers.

Edited June 27, 2014 by lasttriptotulsa

[ptatc]

I don't want it to seem like I'm bashing Konerko because I'm not, but the only thing he has going for him Hall of Fame wise is the counting stats and a World Series. He has never won any awards, never led the league in anything and his rate stats are not that great. His average fWAR for his career is about 1.9. That rates as average or even slightly below average. JAWS lists him as the 81st greatest 1B to play the game. He's 198th all time in OPS and just 381st all time in OPS+. As a 1B, that's not that great.

Like Nolan Ryan never winning the Cy Young and leading the league in walks almost as many times as he lead it in strikeouts?

[whtsoxfan]

 

....argument to be made that Anthony Rizzo is now the best first baseman in baseball. Seriously?

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2014/06/27/a...-other-bullets/

 

 

 

[lasttriptotulsa]

....argument to be made that Anthony Rizzo is now the best first baseman in baseball. Seriously?

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2014/06/27/a...-other-bullets/

 

If he is legitamately as good as he has played the first half of this year, he is definitely in the discussion.

[maggsmaggs]

....argument to be made that Anthony Rizzo is now the best first baseman in baseball. Seriously?

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2014/06/27/a...-other-bullets/

He's tied with Miguel Cabrera for the top WAR among first basemen. Considering he is not yet 25, there is a legit argument to be made for him. Now, he has to continue on this path and remain consistent, but he is young and terrific all-around.

 

Now I think most people would still take Cabrera for this season and perhaps the next couple, but there is definitely an argument to be made.

Edited June 27, 2014 by maggsmaggs

[whtsoxfan]

The argument is, is Rizzo better than Abreu?

[lasttriptotulsa]

The argument is, is Rizzo better than Abreu?

 

And the answer at this point is who knows? Abreu hasn't played half a season yet and Rizzo's only been good for half a season. They're both fairly young and both Chicago teams should feel pretty good about their 1B situations.

[Eminor3rd]

And the answer at this point is who knows? Abreu hasn't played half a season yet and Rizzo's only been good for half a season. They're both fairly young and both Chicago teams should feel pretty good about their 1B situations.

 

QFT

[Kyyle23]

And the answer at this point is who knows? Abreu hasn't played half a season yet and Rizzo's only been good for half a season. They're both fairly young and both Chicago teams should feel pretty good about their 1B situations.

 

This answer is not acceptable and something must be determined right now!

[Kyyle23]

@scottmerkin: That was Abreu's second homer on the seventh pitch or later in an at-bat. Eight on the 2nd pitch and 3 on the first (per @baseball_ref

[royoung]

Abreu has six homers in his past ten games. Carry on