Chris Sale to start Thu May 22 vs Yankees

[chitownsportsfan]

If they even suspected a partial tear, he would have been shut down for at least 4 weeks. They believe it is a muscles strain and are progressing accordingly. The unknown factor is how bad the strain is and how long before the inflammation goes down. Once this happens it's a strengthening and motor control process. This is why how long between throwing sessions is important. It's based on how the muscle is recovering.

 

Yea, it's very hard, even with modern imaging software and sports science, to determine how quickly a muscle strain will respond to rest and treatment. It seems like they were hoping for a very mild strain when in fact, given how slowly it's responding, that it's a bit more than that.

 

That said, if he doesn't improve soon, something else is wrong, and no amount of spin will matter. It's mildy discouraging that he hasn't progressed enough to make a rehab start. It sounds like the bullpen session wasn't 100% smooth.

[TaylorStSox]

Has Rock said anything towards this situation?

Rumor has it that's Sale is leaning towards an amputation and is looking to pitch with his right hand.

[Princess Dye]

This "we should have traded Sale" is even more premature than me claiming it's year ending.

 

Year ending isnt the start and end of my concern or the Sox concern. How a guy's body responds to problems over time and how things get tougher and tougher to manage are what I'm interested in. One thing leading to another, because one isnt a physical freak who can withstand the punishment of those mechanics...........or the opposite of that, which is that he is a physical freak and can do this for 10 yrs.

 

Yes he's great. Yes you can get a lot for him in trade. Yes there are issues with him each year being taken off the mound for periods. So you take all those things and weigh them. and what also weighs in is where your org is at.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Jose Paniagua

[greg775]

With Sale's mechanics, how in the hell would anybody sign him to one of those astronomical contracts? Let's face it, none of this is good news. Not blaming anybody, just saying Sale is not somebody I'm counting on to be a reliable member of the rotation for long.

[ptatc]

With Sale's mechanics, how in the hell would anybody sign him to one of those astronomical contracts? Let's face it, none of this is good news. Not blaming anybody, just saying Sale is not somebody I'm counting on to be a reliable member of the rotation for long.

He is one of these guys that in the 1950s would have been run out of baseball in the minors due to injuries vefore he even got to the majors. He looks to be a guy who they will need to rest and skip a few starts every year. However with his talent he is worth it. It's more important to have him ready at the end of the year in years that they are ,in contention

[thxfrthmmrs]

Correct. I need to start qualifying my posts better. Trading Chris Sale for anything short of a player along the lines of Mike Trout or even a Manny Machado is laughably dumb.

 

 

I apologize for making the assumption that those trades aren't out there.

 

Injuries can happen to ANY pitcher, or any professional athlete for that matter. But the combination of his frame and delivery makes him more susceptible to injury than 90% of the pitchers in baseball.

 

If he is perfectly healthy, no one would dare to bring up any trade ideas, but the fact that he can be out of baseball 3 years from now, you definitely have to weigh in on all options.

 

I was just surprised that most people didn't take this injury prone billing seriously, and would only trade him for the moon when I brought up the topic. If the Cardinals came at me with something like Taveras, Wacha and Wong last year, I would have said yes.

 

We won't be in playoff contention for the next couple of years, and by that time, Sale might not be be the same pitcher as he is now. To also think that we are counting on someone who can only make 30 starts a year, and ran out of gas in the second half of the past 2 seasons, in a playoff series, I think that's scary.

[Balta1701]

Injuries can happen to ANY pitcher, or any professional athlete for that matter. But the combination of his frame and delivery makes him more susceptible to injury than 90% of the pitchers in baseball.

How do you come up with that number? Are you sure it's not 75%? 60%? What fraction of the more at-risk pitchers gets injured and on what average timescale?

[Balta1701]

So yeah...tell Chris to take it easy, would be nice to see if the pieced together pieces can keep this up.

[thxfrthmmrs]

How do you come up with that number? Are you sure it's not 75%? 60%? What fraction of the more at-risk pitchers gets injured and on what average timescale?

 

Maybe more, if you look at pitchers who has such a violent delivery and who also have the thin frame he has, while throwing as hard as he does.

 

The 3 elbow issues he had in the past 3 years are not fluke injuries, they most likely are results of him repeating a highly stressful delivery for 100 times every 5 days. Whatever the outcome this latest injury is, we should take it as a warning sign. It would be miraculous if he avoid any serious elbow injuries over the next 3 years. I hope I am wrong, but I am not liking the chances.

[Balta1701]

Maybe more, if you look at pitchers who has such a violent delivery and who also have the thin frame he has, while throwing as hard as he does.

 

The 3 elbow issues he had in the past 3 years are not fluke injuries, they most likely are results of him repeating a highly stressful delivery for 100 times every 5 days. Whatever the outcome this latest injury is, we should take it as a warning sign. It would be miraculous if he avoid any serious elbow injuries over the next 3 years. I hope I am wrong, but I am not liking the chances.

Again, you're still not defining your terms, giving examples, or giving me any reason to believe this. How many pitchers are there with comparable deliveries? You're not even working on anecdotes right now, working on anecdotes would be naming a couple guys with similar deliveries who did get hurt. You're just saying what your gut tells you about his delivery.

[LittleHurt05]

Maybe more, if you look at pitchers who has such a violent delivery and who also have the thin frame he has, while throwing as hard as he does.

 

The 3 elbow issues he had in the past 3 years are not fluke injuries, they most likely are results of him repeating a highly stressful delivery for 100 times every 5 days. Whatever the outcome this latest injury is, we should take it as a warning sign. It would be miraculous if he avoid any serious elbow injuries over the next 3 years. I hope I am wrong, but I am not liking the chances.

 

Only 17 pitchers threw more innings than him over the past 2 seasons, but yet he's 90% more likely to get injured? I guess he should play the lottery.

[Kyyle23]

Maybe more, if you look at pitchers who has such a violent delivery and who also have the thin frame he has, while throwing as hard as he does.

 

The 3 elbow issues he had in the past 3 years are not fluke injuries, they most likely are results of him repeating a highly stressful delivery for 100 times every 5 days. Whatever the outcome this latest injury is, we should take it as a warning sign. It would be miraculous if he avoid any serious elbow injuries over the next 3 years. I hope I am wrong, but I am not liking the chances.

 

Have they all been elbow issues? I thought at least one was forearm, not elbow

[thxfrthmmrs]

Again, you're still not defining your terms, giving examples, or giving me any reason to believe this. How many pitchers are there with comparable deliveries? You're not even working on anecdotes right now, working on anecdotes would be naming a couple guys with similar deliveries who did get hurt. You're just saying what your gut tells you about his delivery.

 

 

I never claimed 90% is a scientific number that was derived from researches, it was plain arbitrary to get a point across.

 

And there isn't a way to determine a scientific number or formula on his injury probability, just as there isn't a scientific way to determine a prospect's potential. Most prospects are evaluated based on forms, approach, size, athletic ability, intangibles, and relating back to past prospects to project their potential. Most of it is based on observation with the human eyes. Yet we seem to be very willing to accept the prospect assessments.

 

Given what he delivery and frame suggests and the elbow/arm issues the past 3 years, if we choose to not believe that Chris Sale is more susceptible to injuries than most pitchers in baseball, then I think we are in denial here.

[ptatc]

Have they all been elbow issues? I thought at least one was forearm, not elbow

Pretty much the same thing as the forearm muscles originate at the elbow. They are the same muscles, it just depends on where the feel the pain.

[Balta1701]

I never claimed 90% is a scientific number that was derived from researches, it was plain arbitrary to get a point across.

 

And there isn't a way to determine a scientific number or formula on his injury probability, just as there isn't a scientific way to determine a prospect's potential. Most prospects are evaluated based on forms, approach, size, athletic ability, intangibles, and relating back to past prospects to project their potential. Most of it is based on observation with the human eyes. Yet we seem to be very willing to accept the prospect assessments.

 

Given what he delivery and frame suggests and the elbow/arm issues the past 3 years, if we choose to not believe that Chris Sale is more susceptible to injuries than most pitchers in baseball, then I think we are in denial here.

And I think based on nearly 20 pitchers in MLB already going out for Tommy John surgery this year alone, if you choose to believe that somehow Chris Sale is a greater risk than any other pitcher, you need to make a much stronger case than "I think his mechanics look weird". Pitchers are going down left and right in this league. Based on the number of pitchers going down for that surgery already this year, an equally plausible answer seems to be "your baseball team should not employ pitchers".

[ptatc]

And I think based on nearly 20 pitchers in MLB already going out for Tommy John surgery this year alone, if you choose to believe that somehow Chris Sale is a greater risk than any other pitcher, you need to make a much stronger case than "I think his mechanics look weird". Pitchers are going down left and right in this league. Based on the number of pitchers going down for that surgery already this year, an equally plausible answer seems to be "your baseball team should not employ pitchers".

Also, does the fact that Sale has not had a surgery while many pitcher have in the past few years, attest to him only having a tendency towards minor injuries or that the Sox are more conservative in the care of him.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Only 17 pitchers threw more innings than him over the past 2 seasons, but yet he's 90% more likely to get injured? I guess he should play the lottery.

 

1. Are you then suggesting all other pitchers who had lower inning totals couldn't have pitch Chris Sales inning totals based on durability alone, not results? And would they have run into the workload issues Sale did?

 

2. He's our staff ace, those inning totals are expected, the question is can he sustain those workload year after year. We would need him to shoulder more workload if we were to count on him in the post season.

 

3. My original argument was Chris Sale's health in the next 3-5 years, talk to me then if Sale is still in the top 50 in innings pitched after the time span.

[southsider2k5]

Only 17 pitchers threw more innings than him over the past 2 seasons, but yet he's 90% more likely to get injured? I guess he should play the lottery.

 

The only other funky skinny dude I can think of from today is Lincecum, and he has no real injury history.

 

Pedro was a pretty healthy guy for most his career.

 

Who else is there talk about.

[thxfrthmmrs]

And I think based on nearly 20 pitchers in MLB already going out for Tommy John surgery this year alone, if you choose to believe that somehow Chris Sale is a greater risk than any other pitcher, you need to make a much stronger case than "I think his mechanics look weird". Pitchers are going down left and right in this league. Based on the number of pitchers going down for that surgery already this year, an equally plausible answer seems to be "your baseball team should not employ pitchers".

 

Season ending injury is one thing, if they can come back relatively healthy after TJS, then it's fine. Some of the injuries this year appear to be fluke injuries.

 

But chronic injuries is another. and his delivery/frame could very well lead to such. We will revisit this topic in a couple of years.

[Balta1701]

Also, does the fact that Sale has not had a surgery while many pitcher have in the past few years, attest to him only having a tendency towards minor injuries or that the Sox are more conservative in the care of him.

Personally, based on how he has been treated, between the unnecessary shift to the bullpen in 2011, the bouncing between the bullpen and rotation in 2012, and the ongoing pitch count issue that comes up here all the time, I think it's very questionable whether the Sox actually are conservative in how they treat him. You can make a case either way; they have shut him down a couple times at the first sign of an issue (good) but they push him very hard in several ways otherwise.

[thxfrthmmrs]

The only other funky skinny dude I can think of from today is Lincecum, and he has no real injury history.

 

Pedro was a pretty healthy guy for most his career.

 

Who else is there talk about.

 

 

I wonder what's causing him to suck so much the past 3 years.

[witesoxfan]

I wonder what's causing him to suck so much the past 3 years.

 

Velocity is way down. He averaged about 92 during his and it's below 90 this year. He's also changed from a straight over the top curve to more of a slurve, and his changeup usage is way up, which I'm guessing he leaves up too often. His HR/FB was at about 5-6% during his Cy Young seasons, and it's been 14%, 12%, and 18% the last 3 seasons.

[southsider2k5]

I wonder what's causing him to suck so much the past 3 years.

 

Non sequitor. Who else is out there fitting the description who has had injury problems.

[caulfield12]

Randy Johnson's long career gives some hope.

 

It's hard to find many good comps, though.

[LittleHurt05]

I wonder what's causing him to suck so much the past 3 years.

 

I imagine that smoking pot everyday would take its toll on a ballplayer eventually.