White Sox claim P Hector Noesi off waivers

[southsider2k5]

So going off of the idea that the White Sox see something to fix in Noesi...

 

Career he has a 5.81 era. Vs the Sox he has a 19.41 era, or 23 ER in 10.2 IP. Take away his outings against the Sox and his career ERA drops to 5.03. The closest ERA to what he has put up against the Sox in any team he has pitched more than 10 innings against is 12.26 lower.

 

With that big of an ERA against 1 team, and the fact that team claimed him, does it mean Sox see a tell in Noesi's delivery?

[caulfield12]

He's trash, but so are Francisco, Guerra, Boggs, Hanson. Maybe they will get lucky but it is obvious they are desperate for someone. Anyone.

 

The one who has actually put up the best numbers in AAA/AA is Frank De Los Santos, who we acquired from the Rays quietly in the offseason.

 

Started the year in BIRM and quickly got the call-up to Charlotte.

 

Anything is better than Heath, Omo, Bruney, Sean Tracey, etc. Well, ALMOST anything. Who's next, Phil Humber? Brandon McCarthy? Daniel Hudson?

[Buehrle>Wood]

Right there shows a big problem right now...no names from the past two years.

True though it's hard to blame Cooper for not keep pulling miracles put of his ass. Dylan Axelrod being anything close to competent for any

length of time was pretty close though.

[caulfield12]

Right there shows a big problem right now...no names from the past two years.

 

 

Quintana, that's it.

 

And however much you want or are willing to credit Cooper with Chris Sale and their treatment of him.

 

If Danks can hold up at 87-90, surely some of the adjustments made in reaction to losing 2-3 MPH off his fastball are related to Coop.

 

 

Johnson...? Who really knows, too early to tell. Has had some really impressive starts, but the first 2-3 outings this year were borderline abysmal. Let's see where we are with him in a month, and where his velocity readings are when the temperatures get into the 80's.

[Dick Allen]

Right there shows a big problem right now...no names from the past two years.

And many of those names how do you give Cooper all the success? Even Contreras, who during 2005 Soxtalk wanted gone for AJ Burnett. There was a story that El Duque told Contreras he needed to attack hitters like he did in Cuba, and that is what got him going.

 

The Coop will fix 'em is something that really is overblown. He did "fix" Thornton. It was done in one side session. You definitely have to give him a lot of credit for Loaisa, but that didn't last long. Floyd was a top 5 pick and pretty frustrating most of his White Sox career. Maybe he did something with Quintana. But other than that, there is nothing earthshattering here. I'm sure he's a good pitching coach, but some think he walks on water and does no wrong. The White Sox spent a lot more money per player on pitching than on offense during the past decade. The guys they didn't pay were just as bad as the guys that aren't paid on other teams.

[southsider2k5]

True though it's hard to blame Cooper for not keep pulling miracles put of his ass. Dylan Axelrod being anything close to competent for any

length of time was pretty close though.

 

Donnie Veal two years ago was pretty impressive too. 2012 Jake Peavy is also worth mentioning as he hadn't been that good for half of a decade.

[southsider2k5]

And many of those names how do you give Cooper all the success? Even Contreras, who during 2005 Soxtalk wanted gone for AJ Burnett. There was a story that El Duque told Contreras he needed to attack hitters like he did in Cuba, and that is what got him going.

 

The Coop will fix 'em is something that really is overblown. He did "fix" Thornton. It was done in one side session. You definitely have to give him a lot of credit for Loaisa, but that didn't last long. Floyd was a top 5 pick and pretty frustrating most of his White Sox career. Maybe he did something with Quintana. But other than that, there is nothing earthshattering here. I'm sure he's a good pitching coach, but some think he walks on water and does no wrong. The White Sox spent a lot more money per player on pitching than on offense during the past decade. The guys they didn't pay were just as bad as the guys that aren't paid on other teams.

 

Don Cooper kicked your dog. Admit it.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I don't think we spend comparatively to other teams on pitching at all and that makes Cooper a success.

[Dick Allen]

Don Cooper kicked your dog. Admit it.

Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Joe Crede......

 

Just some names Greg Walker coached. According to most here, he was turrible.

[Dick Allen]

I don't think we spend comparatively to other teams on pitching at all and that makes Cooper a success.

Now perhaps, but back in the day the Sox were paying around 8 figures for a #5 starter.

[southsider2k5]

Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Joe Crede......

 

Just some names Greg Walker coached. According to most here, he was turrible.

 

[shakes fist at radio]

[flavum]

Noesi is out of options, so what's the deal here? Is he in the pen tonight or are they trying to pull a Javy Guerra and get him through waivers themselves?

[Eminor3rd]

Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Joe Crede......

 

Just some names Greg Walker coached. According to most here, he was turrible.

 

I see your point, but that's not a good example because of those, only Crede wasn't already really good or a top prospect. No reclamation projects there.

[Dick Allen]

Noesi is out of options, so what's the deal here? Is he in the pen tonight or are they trying to pull a Javy Guerra and get him through waivers themselves?

They would probably send down Putnam. They may get a day or so to make something happen because I doubt he was in the area when claimed.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Joe Crede......

 

Just some names Greg Walker coached. According to most here, he was turrible.

 

Completely different scenario. Out of your list, Frank, Maggs, El Caballo, Dye, Konerko and Thome were already established veterans when Walker came along. Frank and Thome were already on their way to the HOF. You could maybe list Rowand and Crede and that would be about it.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I see your point, but that's not a good example because of those, only Crede wasn't already really good or a top prospect. No reclamation projects there.

 

Crede was a two time MVP in the minors, so I wouldn't give Walker the credit there either.

[witesoxfan]

Crede was a two time MVP in the minors, so I wouldn't give Walker the credit there either.

 

Eh, I would. Crede was a dog lost in the woods in his first couple years, and he worked a lot with Walker after 2005 to hone in swing in, and he had an absolutely phenomenal year until his back went out.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Meh, if you throw enough s*** at the wall it's bound to stick right?

 

 

The thing I like is they're constantly looking to improve.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Bigsoxhurt35

[caulfield12]

Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand, Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Joe Crede......

 

Just some names Greg Walker coached. According to most here, he was turrible.

 

Walker started with the White Sox in 2003.

 

It's also about expectations. Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko and Thome were all established major league players, some HOF or All-Stars...even Jermaine Dye.

 

So Rowand and Crede, sure (but then you have the noted failures of Borchard, Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Gordon Beckham and many others to go along with that...Alex Rios pre-2012, Adam Dunn's 2011 mystifying fall off, Nick Swisher's anomalous 2008 season).

 

And you can give Walker Carlos Quentin of 2008. Or you can say that he was simply healthy for one good chunk of a season and was provided the opportunity to play full-time. And AJ Pierzynski was always a top hitting catcher, for example.

 

But from that list of pitchers, they have some big-time pedigrees, but most of them came to the White Sox as reclamation projects, with Contreras being the quintessential example of all. Talent, but lack of results with previous teams for a plethora of reasons.

 

 

Javy always gets thrown out as a Cooper failure, but no pitching coach every really had consistent success with him, despite his success. Trading away Daniel Hudson and Brandon McCarthy and Gio gets blamed on him too, for some reason. Or Ventura's bullpen mismanagement.

Edited April 25, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I see your point, but that's not a good example because of those, only Crede wasn't already really good or a top prospect. No reclamation projects there.

But a lot of the list for Cooper wasn't really reclamation except the names I mentioned. Dye and Thome and Konerko were reclimations as much as most of the Cooper list.

 

Cooper doesn't get scrutinized for guys failing nearly as much as the Sox hitting coaches or manager have. That's just a fact. If Darin Erstad is horrible and Andy Gonzalez doesn't hack it in the 3 spot, Walker was an idiot. If the Sox botch a rundown, Ventura hasn't shown them the proper way. If the bullpen walks 5 out of 6 batters, the pitchers just suck.

 

Several guys weren't so good with the White Sox but had pitching success later elsewhere. Other than Nick Swisher, I don't think there is any White Sox who had far more success offensively after sucking it up with the White Sox. Of course, many of the White Sox hitters were veterans who were either done or nearing the end of the line, but no one was able to "fix" the other guys.

[southsider2k5]

But a lot of the list for Cooper wasn't really reclamation except the names I mentioned. Dye and Thome and Konerko were reclimations as much as most of the Cooper list.

 

Cooper doesn't get scrutinized for guys failing nearly as much as the Sox hitting coaches or manager have. That's just a fact. If Darin Erstad is horrible and Andy Gonzalez doesn't hack it in the 3 spot, Walker was an idiot. If the Sox botch a rundown, Ventura hasn't shown them the proper way. If the bullpen walks 5 out of 6 batters, the pitchers just suck.

 

Several guys weren't so good with the White Sox but had pitching success later elsewhere. Other than Nick Swisher, I don't think there is any White Sox who had far more success offensively after sucking it up with the White Sox. Of course, many of the White Sox hitters were veterans who were either done or nearing the end of the line, but no one was able to "fix" the other guys.

 

Repeat something enough times and it just bound to become truth.

 

Getting past the weird Cooper obsession, Don Cooper has a reputation as one of the best pitching coaches in all of baseball. Period. This isn't a Soxtalk thing like you want to make it into. Who Soxtalk would have picked to be in the rotation in 2005, or whatever other non sequitur you want to throw at the wall is irrelevant.

 

[Dick Allen]

Walker started with the White Sox in 2003.

 

It's also about expectations. Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko and Thome were all established major league players, some HOF or All-Stars...even Jermaine Dye.

 

So Rowand and Crede, sure (but then you have the noted failures of Borchard, Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Gordon Beckham and many others to go along with that...Alex Rios pre-2012, Adam Dunn's 2011 mystifying fall off, Nick Swisher's anomalous 2008 season).

 

And you can give Walker Carlos Quentin of 2008. Or you can say that he was simply healthy for one good chunk of a season and was provided the opportunity to play full-time. And AJ Pierzynski was always a top hitting catcher, for example.

 

But from that list of pitchers, they have some big-time pedigrees, but most of them came to the White Sox as reclamation projects, with Contreras being the quintessential example of all. Talent, but lack of results with previous teams for a plethora of reasons.

 

 

Javy always gets thrown out as a Cooper failure, but no pitching coach every really had consistent success with him, despite his success. Trading away Daniel Hudson and Brandon McCarthy and Gio gets blamed on him too, for some reason. Or Ventura's bullpen mismanagement.

 

What was Dye's 2004 season like? How about Thome's 2005? What was Paulie doing the firs half of 2003 before Walker was hired? These guys fit the same critieria as most of your list. Contreras was the most highly acclaimed Cuban pitcher. Danks was a #1 pick the Sox traded their top prospect for. Gavin Floyd was a top 5 pick. Bobby Jenks was a top prospect and seemed to get it together in the minors. He hit the ground running with the Sox. Peavy was a Cy Young award winner. Keith Foulke and Buerhle were well established before Cooper became the pitching coach. How many of Coop will fix 'em's success stories were sustained?

[caulfield12]

But a lot of the list for Cooper wasn't really reclamation except the names I mentioned. Dye and Thome and Konerko were reclimations as much as most of the Cooper list. (The difference is that Thome was already on a clear path to the Hall of Fame, whereas Jose had a HOF arm and zero career results with the pressure cooker in NY. He became the best pitcher, the most dominant in baseball, for a good 4-5 month stretch until getting injured in Cincy in May, 2006.)

 

Cooper doesn't get scrutinized for guys failing nearly as much as the Sox hitting coaches or manager have. That's just a fact. If Darin Erstad is horrible and Andy Gonzalez doesn't hack it in the 3 spot, Walker was an idiot. If the Sox botch a rundown, Ventura hasn't shown them the proper way. If the bullpen walks 5 out of 6 batters, the pitchers just suck.

 

Several guys weren't so good with the White Sox but had pitching success later elsewhere. Other than Nick Swisher, I don't think there is any White Sox who had far more success offensively after sucking it up with the White Sox. Of course, many of the White Sox hitters were veterans who were either done or nearing the end of the line, but no one was able to "fix" the other guys.

 

One of the main reasons that Cooper is assailed is because the John Danks and Gavin Floyds of 2008 regressed. Floyd, we all know his mental fortitude issues, same with Javy. And then Danks had the injury, so it's hard to say how good he really could have become without that.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

What was Dye's 2004 season like? How about Thome's 2005? What was Paulie doing the firs half of 2003 before Walker was hired? These guys fit the same critieria as most of your list. Contreras was the most highly acclaimed Cuban pitcher. Danks was a #1 pick the Sox traded their top prospect for. Gavin Floyd was a top 5 pick. Bobby Jenks was a top prospect and seemed to get it together in the minors. He hit the ground running with the Sox. Peavy was a Cy Young award winner. Keith Foulke and Buerhle were well established before Cooper became the pitching coach. How many of Coop will fix 'em's success stories were sustained?

 

 

But Foulke was borderline "established" as a fifth starter with the Giants, not as a reliever.

 

Crede, with the back issues, there's no way of knowing what he would have gone on to do after Chicago. We can all see the inconsistency due to health out of Quentin, as well.

 

 

The difference is all those pitchers were noted FAILURES (except for Danks, who hadn't really had a full opportunity in Texas).

 

Contreras in NY, Floyd in Philly. Jenks nearly out of the game of baseball and out of control in the Angels' organization. Santos a former 1st rounder who was almost out of the game as a SS. Peavy was pitching with 3-5 mph off his peak 2007 Cy Young velocity. Disasters right and left with most of the pitchers.

 

JD broke his leg, but he had some super solid years with the Braves and Royals.

[Dick Allen]

Repeat something enough times and it just bound to become truth.

 

Getting past the weird Cooper obsession, Don Cooper has a reputation as one of the best pitching coaches in all of baseball. Period. This isn't a Soxtalk thing like you want to make it into. Who Soxtalk would have picked to be in the rotation in 2005, or whatever other non sequitur you want to throw at the wall is irrelevant.

 

I think he's a good pitching coach. I've said that several times. He's just not the pitching god people make him out to be. No one is. Leo Mazzone was a genius in Atlanta. He went to Baltimore, got some bad pitchers got fired and then couldn't get hired. Offensively, Rudy Jaramillo was a genius. I remember the guy saying Walker was "lift and pull" (which couldn't have been more wrong), thinking Jaramillo was such a hitting genius, the Sox needed to hire his "assistant". Little did he know, that Jaramillo's philosophy is pretty close to "lift and pull".

 

Everyone here has to realize Don Cooper is not looked at the same way all the other coaches are looked at. If the Sox botch a rundown its on Ventura or the infield coach. If they don't hit, the hitting coach sucks. If the pitchers screw up, then and only then is it on the player. unless it is on Ventura for using them incorrectly. You know as well as I, Cooper makes most, if not all of the pitching decisions. For some who don't agree with all the decisions, knowing that is like discovering Santa Claus isn't real. I just try to put Coop in the same light everyone else puts the rest of the coaching staff.