Payroll Obligations 2015-2019

[Eminor3rd]

The Yankees don't care because they have more money than they know what to do with and they know the best way to increase franchise value is to win. Besides, the damage a bad contract can do is vastly overstated.

 

I know WHY they did it, I'm just saying that it's not hard to believe the Sox FO when they say they were a legitimate player on him, because the richest team in the sport had to bend over completely to win the bidding. I would not have expected (or even wanted) the Sox to have BEAT that offer, especially before we knew if he was for real.

[southsider2k5]

I don't think they ever have. They also never hired a farm director who is serving time for skimming bonuses.

 

Translation: Man that one blew up in my face, let's try something else.

[Marty34]

I know WHY they did it, I'm just saying that it's not hard to believe the Sox FO when they say they were a legitimate player on him, because the richest team in the sport had to bend over completely to win the bidding. I would not have expected (or even wanted) the Sox to have BEAT that offer, especially before we knew if he was for real.

 

Would you take Tanaka on the Sox right now for what the Yankees paid for him? If not, why not?

[Eminor3rd]

Would you take Tanaka on the Sox right now for what the Yankees paid for him? If not, why not?

 

I probably would now, but I had to sit and think about it for a second. This is given our relatively low salary commitments and the fact that the Sox would probably NOT re-sign him to a mega-contract if he stayed this good and opted out, meaning we'd get him at 3/60 or whatever, with a real chance to compete in that third year.

 

Still a big risk, though. An injury over the next 3 years could make him a massive albatross overnight. His age at least makes him less of a risk to lose velocity, though, and thus simply become ineffective like so many older SPs on long deals.

 

EDIT: Also, it's difficult to predict how much higher another team would have had to go to BEAT the Yankees offer, especially one coming off a 99 loss season and committed to some form of rebuild.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Marty34]

I probably would now, but I had to sit and think about it for a second. This is given our relatively low salary commitments and the fact that the Sox would probably NOT re-sign him to a mega-contract if he stayed this good and opted out, meaning we'd get him at 3/60 or whatever, with a real chance to compete in that third year.

 

Still a big risk, though. An injury over the next 3 years could make him a massive albatross overnight. His age at least makes him less of a risk to lose velocity, though, and thus simply become ineffective like so many older SPs on long deals.

 

The alternative to signing a top-tier free agent starter is just as risky. There's nothing in terms of starters on the farm that's going to give this team a chance to compete in two years.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

For specific guy, absolutely.

 

Some take that as if he is willing to spend money on Tanaka, he has to have a spare $100 million in his pocket to spend now, having no idea if that is true or not. The Tanaka stuff could mean a lot of things. Honestly I think in that case they viewed Tanaka as a money generator that pretty much any other player wouldn't be. He would single handedly open a revenue stream back to Japan, and in this country, which no other player on the market really could have. I think they also viewed the guy as a game changer, much in the line of Abreu's batting ability, and didn't see that in the other pitchers on the market.

This is right. For the rebuild Hahn wanted young impact now guys, Eaton, Abreu, A. Garcia, and Davidson. And he gave up the pitching to get bats. So of course he went for Tanaka, who is young and impactful right now. Hahn saw this as a chance at sustained sucess, just not one and done playoff appearances.

 

But Hahn should also know it's very difficult to get a full young talented roster. Every sucessful team has high priced vets wether they come from free agency or the team developed and resigned or extended them.

 

With Tanaka the Sox probably had their fingers crossed that if he and Abreu both were better than advertised they had a shot this year and if not that, surely next year with Eaton, A. Garcia , Viciedo and others with another year under their belts. But now without Tanaka the Sox will be in scramble mode for high end starters and not just young ones.

 

The questions the Sox have to ask now if the young lineup proves to have staying power what do they do to get pitching ? Is it back in "all in" mode ? Do they give up prospects, look internationally, free agency ?

 

The easy part is now over. Hahn gave up the high priced talent and a young starter and young closer with value for young position talent. Now Dunn is the only hold over high priced vet and the Sox might end up with nothing for him except a few million saved. How do you now get the starting pitching you need right now or next year to start this run of competing every year ?

 

Even going after guys is no guarantee you get them. How big is the window , how long do you wait before it becomes " we desperately need another really good starting pitcher" ?

[ScottyDo]

I don't think they ever have. They also never hired a farm director who is serving time for skimming bonuses.

Wait, the Sox haven't gotten a new farm director since Wilder? HE'S STILL THE SOX' FARM DIRECTOR!? Well then, you're right, let's take care of that first!

[ScottyDo]

This is right. For the rebuild Hahn wanted young impact now guys, Eaton, Abreu, A. Garcia, and Davidson. And he gave up the pitching to get bats. So of course he went for Tanaka, who is young and impactful right now. Hahn saw this as a chance at sustained sucess, just not one and done playoff appearances.

 

But Hahn should also know it's very difficult to get a full young talented roster. Every sucessful team has high priced vets wether they come from free agency or the team developed and resigned or extended them.

 

With Tanaka the Sox probably had their fingers crossed that if he and Abreu both were better than advertised they had a shot this year and if not that, surely next year with Eaton, A. Garcia , Viciedo and others with another year under their belts. But now without Tanaka the Sox will be in scramble mode for high end starters and not just young ones.

 

The questions the Sox have to ask now if the young lineup proves to have staying power what do they do to get pitching ? Is it back in "all in" mode ? Do they give up prospects, look internationally, free agency ?

 

The easy part is now over. Hahn gave up the high priced talent and a young starter and young closer with value for young position talent. Now Dunn is the only hold over high priced vet and the Sox might end up with nothing for him except a few million saved. How do you now get the starting pitching you need right now or next year to start this run of competing every year ?

 

Even going after guys is no guarantee you get them. How big is the window , how long do you wait before it becomes " we desperately need another really good starting pitcher" ?

Keeping draft picks, using them well, signing international FAs, investing in your scouting/development team, analyzing potentially undervalued assets using advanced metrics and scouting, signing low-risk high-reward guys, signing the occasional and very targeted FA acquisition, and saving your bullets until you can make them count.

 

EDIT: Totally agree, the above is the extremely hard part. But Marty's wish for a blank check is a pipe dream. Only two teams have really made it work, and they're two of the richest teams in baseball. Even LAD has 0 recent championships to boast about.

Edited May 2, 2014 by ScottyDo

[southsider2k5]

Keeping draft picks, using them well, signing international FAs, investing in your scouting/development team, analyzing potentially undervalued assets using advanced metrics and scouting, signing low-risk high-reward guys, signing the occasional and very targeted FA acquisition, and saving your bullets until you can make them count.

 

EDIT: Totally agree, the above is the extremely hard part. But Marty's wish for a blank check is a pipe dream. Only two teams have really made it work, and they're two of the richest teams in baseball. Even LAD has 0 recent championships to boast about.

 

The Dodgers lost $80 million last year.

[Eminor3rd]

The Dodgers lost $80 million last year.

 

That's insane

[Balta1701]

The Dodgers lost $80 million last year.

Last year was the year "before" their TV deal comes up right? So if they lose money last year they expect to make it up in the next couple years thanks to the playoff birth and extra ratings?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Keeping draft picks, using them well, signing international FAs, investing in your scouting/development team, analyzing potentially undervalued assets using advanced metrics and scouting, signing low-risk high-reward guys, signing the occasional and very targeted FA acquisition, and saving your bullets until you can make them count.

 

EDIT: Totally agree, the above is the extremely hard part. But Marty's wish for a blank check is a pipe dream. Only two teams have really made it work, and they're two of the richest teams in baseball. Even LAD has 0 recent championships to boast about.

That's all well and good and a sound way to do things ,but the young core, our young core, if it proves to have staying power , we coud've competed this year and next year . There comes a point where you're either very serious about fielding a contender, not just a competitve team, or you're not.They're going to either roll with the big boys in the free agent market or if they continue doing business the way they always have, get very lucky rolling the dice on undervalued int'l. FA's, low risk, high reward guys because the rest of the things take much longer and then you start losing key pieces to the core or you have to trade a key piece to that core.

 

The best thing for the Sox going forward is selling high on Viciedo if he can maintain what he's doing now all year. We are too right handed and maybe the Sox can swing a trade for someone fairly equal to Viciedo who is LH who can also catch the ball. Even someone older . The core won't stay the core very long. The path to more immediate success is trade from the core, the prospects or actually have a $100M contract on the Sox somewhere or perhaps a few Abreu like contracts unless you think you can imitate the Tampa Bays and Oaklands out there , which we shouldn't have to do.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Yeah, that's the point: you build a core out of the (hopefully) 25% or so guys you can get to pan out via draft/int'l/trades, you develop a few solid role players internally, and THEN you make a splash or two on the FA market to fill in the gaps. Now you've spent your big bucks where you know you needed it most and you minimized your risk.

 

What you DON'T do is "sign a bunch of dudes just in case your team turns out good because you have a low payroll anyway." This is the Marty model, and it is prone to collapse because you're (1) committing to assets that you're guessing you'll need beforehand, (2) paying market elite prices for "best available" player instead of truly who is worth because you're spending just because you HAVE the money rather than whether you SHOULD spend it, and (3) assuming massive amounts of risk long-term by limiting the liquidity of the players you have, thus being extremely prone to decline and injury.

 

The former method takes some patience but pays dividends for years to come once in place, the latter is a hail mary that can trash your hopes for years to come if you miss.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, that's the point: you build a core out of the (hopefully) 25% or so guys you can get to pan out via draft/int'l/trades, you develop a few solid role players internally, and THEN you make a splash or two on the FA market to fill in the gaps. Now you've spent your big bucks where you know you needed it most and you minimized your risk.

 

What you DON'T do is "sign a bunch of dudes just in case your team turns out good because you have a low payroll anyway." This is the Marty model, and it is prone to collapse because you're (1) committing to assets that you're guessing you'll need beforehand, (2) paying market elite prices for "best available" player instead of truly who is worth because you're spending just because you HAVE the money rather than whether you SHOULD spend it, and (3) assuming massive amounts of risk long-term by limiting the liquidity of the players you have, thus being extremely prone to decline and injury.

 

The former method takes some patience but pays dividends for years to come once in place, the latter is a hail mary that can trash your hopes for years to come if you miss.

 

It also could very well mean you need to suffer through a weakness because you are burdened with other contracts.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

I really think the team can and will employ both of these strategies. I don't know if he's considered a big time FA, but Justin Masterson is a guy that would make sense. Sinkerballer, RH, expensive but not grotesquely expensive. I'd want Shields (depending on the price) but Masterson seems to be more aligned with the team's tendencies.

 

 

The Sox will be in no position to sign either of them if it costs a 1st round draft pick.

[shakes]

I don't think they ever have. They also never hired a farm director who is serving time for skimming bonuses.

 

 

Did you just post something knowingly false? According to the guidelines of this site "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false."

 

Can I get an admin ruling on this?

[Eminor3rd]

Did you just post something knowingly false? According to the guidelines of this site "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false."

 

Can I get an admin ruling on this?

 

lol

[Y2Jimmy0]

It's too early to know if that's the case.

 

Besides, after Morales-Drew-Santana-Cruz debacle, there's rumors that the union will move to renegotiate draft pick compensation as it makes no sense what so ever.

 

 

Do you agree though that if those guys sign Qualifying Offers, the Sox can't do it? They won't be in position to give up that draft pick. Now there's a chance they will be picking in top 10 again and then you could make an argument that it'd be worth giving up the 2nd rounder. Luckily, we are a long way off from this.

[witesoxfan]

Did you just post something knowingly false? According to the guidelines of this site "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false."

 

Can I get an admin ruling on this?

 

Well, to be fair, the Cardinals never did hire a a farm director who ended up in prison for skimming money. Of course, the White Sox did not either, as Dave Wilder was the Director of Player Personnel and Senior Director of Player Personnel in his time with the White Sox. He oversaw Latin American operations.

[southsider2k5]

Well, to be fair, the Cardinals never did hire a a farm director who ended up in prison for skimming money. Of course, the White Sox did not either, as Dave Wilder was the Director of Player Personnel and Senior Director of Player Personnel in his time with the White Sox. He oversaw Latin American operations.

 

To be fair by this standard

 

They also never hired a farm director who is serving time for skimming bonuses.

 

The White Sox never have hired anyone who fits that description. Wilder was hired and fired long before he was serving time.

[witesoxfan]

To be fair by this standard

 

 

 

The White Sox never have hired anyone who fits that description. Wilder was hired and fired long before he was serving time.

 

Ohhhhhhh, with the technicality!

[Eminor3rd]

Also, to be fair, Marty did TOTALLY ask for this lol

 

I did not write the quote you attributed to me SS2K5 and according to the guidelines of this site "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false."

 

Edited May 2, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[LDF]

Did you just post something knowingly false? According to the guidelines of this site "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false."

 

Can I get an admin ruling on this?

 

 

The subtle art of sarcasm is dying.

[Kyyle23]

The subtle art of sarcasm is dying.

 

It isnt dying, it has merely been changed to green

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I really think the team can and will employ both of these strategies. I don't know if he's considered a big time FA, but Justin Masterson is a guy that would make sense. Sinkerballer, RH, expensive but not grotesquely expensive. I'd want Shields (depending on the price) but Masterson seems to be more aligned with the team's tendencies.

We know for sure they are stockpiling injured guys, big arms and no control, unsigned free agents, Hanson, Noesi, Cleto , Frank Francisco anyone with a pulse and potential . Hoping for that needle in the haystack guy they always seem to come up with. Get them on the cheap and turn them into gold.