Ventura rips the team

[caulfield12]

So you guys honestly believe he will still be managing the White Sox in 2016 and 2017?

 

I'm not seeing it. I think he's more of a transitional manager like Torborg or Manuel and we bring in a more experienced guy at some point to get them over the top.

 

It's an interesting debate though...I don't think there's any argument that a lot of areas of managing (bullpen use/line-up construction, having that knack for making the right move at the right time) that haven't shown as much improvement as you'd like. Then you have 2012 as the counter-argument....with the counter-argument to that argument being almost anyone would have been better than Ozzie, that the defense and fundamentals have fallen off a cliff since the last two weeks of 2012 and that he basically "lost" last year's team before it was torn apart by all the mid-season trades.

 

Balta and Fathom would certainly give you strong answers here.

 

Having his "own" team without Dunn and Konerko on next year's roster will give us a more "objective" opportunity to properly evaluate. A healthy Avisail Garcia and more/better options than guys like Sierra/Leury Garcia/Nieto/DeAza will help as well.

 

Same thing with the bullpen. Hahn's done Ventura no favors with guys like Cleto, Downs, Paulino and Keppinger. Ventura did a great job with that rookie-filled pen in 2012, but has looked lost/clueless at lots of points since then. Having Noesi/Carroll/Rienzo as the back of your rotation doesn't help, either.

[caulfield12]

Sigh.

 

If you are supposed to look at the back of their baseball cards, how come you didn't do it?

 

Leury was hitting .357 vs. LHP with 3 doubles when he went to the plate.

 

 

That's really your argument?

 

Can we say limited sample size?

 

I'm guessing most of those lefties didn't have nearly the stuff that Doolittle does. Nor were those situations where he came up against lefties anything like the most important at-bat of the game, they were at garbage time (primarily).

 

I can do the same thing, lol.

 

RHP vs. LHP (650 projected PA) | Leury Garcia

 

PA AB R HR RBI SB AVG OBP SLG OPS $

vs. RHP 650 599 61 6 50 34 0.225 0.271 0.308 0.579 4.0

vs. LHP 650 615 58 5 50 24 0.236 0.271 0.307 0.578 -0.5

 

 

 

 

It's not like the time he refused to walk Sal Perez in order to go after Moustakas, who was in the worst hitters in MLB at that time, but it wasn't one of his better decisions, either.

Edited May 13, 2014 by caulfield12

[BigHurt3515]

So Adam Dunn should lead off. Gotcha.

 

Why not??

 

I was leaning towards Ramirez which is way more reasonable

[Buehrle>Wood]

Yes, I believe he will be managing in 2017. He isn't ozzie, his mouth won't cost him. He's a White Sox legend; JR won't approve of any firing I don't think.

[caulfield12]

Yes, I believe he will be managing in 2017. He isn't ozzie, his mouth won't cost him. He's a White Sox legend; JR won't approve of any firing I don't think.

 

 

I guess it's two quite different questions.

 

Should be managing, as in the very best option to lead the Sox to the playoffs?

 

Will be managing, in terms of how much rope he has if the next two seasons were to go south in similar fashion to 2013...which is unlikely to happen with Abreu's presence alone unless Sale were to be on the shelf for an extended time. Then all bets would be off. But having Rodon could make up for that, as well. And whatever players we can bring in as FA's. Healthy Avisail for the entire season, etc.

Edited May 13, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

That's really your argument?

 

Can we say limited sample size?

 

I'm guessing most of those lefties didn't have nearly the stuff that Doolittle does. Nor were those situations where he came up against lefties anything like the most important at-bat of the game, they were at garbage time (primarily).

 

I can do the same thing, lol.

 

RHP vs. LHP (650 projected PA) | Leury Garcia

 

PA AB R HR RBI SB AVG OBP SLG OPS $

vs. RHP 650 599 61 6 50 34 0.225 0.271 0.308 0.579 4.0

vs. LHP 650 615 58 5 50 24 0.236 0.271 0.307 0.578 -0.5

 

 

 

 

It's not like the time he refused to walk Sal Perez in order to go after Moustakas, who was in the worst hitters in MLB at that time, but it wasn't one of his better decisions, either.

Anyone who hit in that situation would have been limited sample size. Semien has had some big clutch hits, but I was told there really is no such thing, it's just random, and he strikes out a ton anyway. Sierra, another name you mentioned, was acquired on waivers. Why do teams place really good hitters on waivers? Oh yeah, they don't.

It is amazing how every little part of the game is picked apart when the team loses. Especially considering many of the people picking each game apart seem to think the Sox have very little chance to be very good anyway, yet if you read a game thread, if some posters here were managing, the Sox would be very close to being undefeated, so apparently this is an unbelievalbly talented team.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Kyyle23]

I guess it's two quite different questions.

 

Should be managing, as in the very best option to lead the Sox to the playoffs?

 

Will be managing, in terms of how much rope he has if the next two seasons were to go south in similar fashion to 2013...which is unlikely to happen with Abreu's presence alone unless Sale were to be on the shelf for an extended time. Then all bets would be off. But having Rodon could make up for that, as well. And whatever players we can bring in as FA's. Healthy Avisail for the entire season, etc.

 

all bets are off because who the hell knows what this roster will look like 3 years from now. It will most likely have far different needs than what you see right now

[southsider2k5]

So you guys honestly believe he will still be managing the White Sox in 2016 and 2017?

 

I'm not seeing it. I think he's more of a transitional manager like Torborg or Manuel and we bring in a more experienced guy at some point to get them over the top.

 

It's an interesting debate though...I don't think there's any argument that a lot of areas of managing (bullpen use/line-up construction, having that knack for making the right move at the right time) that haven't shown as much improvement as you'd like. Then you have 2012 as the counter-argument....with the counter-argument to that argument being almost anyone would have been better than Ozzie, that the defense and fundamentals have fallen off a cliff since the last two weeks of 2012 and that he basically "lost" last year's team before it was torn apart by all the mid-season trades.

 

Balta and Fathom would certainly give you strong answers here.

 

Having his "own" team without Dunn and Konerko on next year's roster will give us a more "objective" opportunity to properly evaluate. A healthy Avisail Garcia and more/better options than guys like Sierra/Leury Garcia/Nieto/DeAza will help as well.

 

Same thing with the bullpen. Hahn's done Ventura no favors with guys like Cleto, Downs, Paulino and Keppinger. Ventura did a great job with that rookie-filled pen in 2012, but has looked lost/clueless at lots of points since then. Having Noesi/Carroll/Rienzo as the back of your rotation doesn't help, either.

 

If Ventura wants to manage this team, he will be, unless the team takes a major step backwards when it shouldn't. If he was going to be fired, he would have been last year, and not given an extension.

 

The fact that this is about a .500 team with all of the injury problems this year will go a long way towards securing that.

[oldsox]

I think we've got this all wrong... The reporter misquoted Ventura. He was actually referring to one of the players' wives as being "flat"

I thought the beer was flat.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

I was really wondering if they intended on making the bullpen a little more flat. I mean, some of these guys are pretty round. If being in shape is so important, I suppose round is a shape though, right?

[caulfield12]

If Ventura wants to manage this team, he will be, unless the team takes a major step backwards when it shouldn't. If he was going to be fired, he would have been last year, and not given an extension.

 

The fact that this is about a .500 team with all of the injury problems this year will go a long way towards securing that.

 

 

What do you think the team's record would be right now without Abreu?

 

And what do you think Viciedo/Ramirez/Flowers would be hitting without his presence in the line-up and the hiring of Steverson?

 

It's an argument that will go round and round in circles.

 

 

That said, you can't judge the results this season...but you can look at some of the micro-managerial decisions and how he holds the team together in periods of adversity.

 

Obviously, with Erik Johnson pitching how he was projected to, with Eaton healthy for the first 40 games as well as Garcia (which means a LOT less of DeAza/Danks/Sierra), Chris Sale, a real bullpen with a better LHR than Downs and a healthy Nate Jones...it would also be a different story.

Edited May 13, 2014 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

Anyone who hit in that situation would have been limited sample size. Semien has had some big clutch hits, but I was told there really is no such thing, it's just random, and he strikes out a ton anyway. Sierra, another name you mentioned, was acquired on waivers. Why do teams place really good hitters on waivers? Oh yeah, they don't.

It is amazing how every little part of the game is picked apart when the team loses. Especially considering many of the people picking each game apart seem to think the Sox have very little chance to be very good anyway, yet if you read a game thread, if some posters here were managing, the Sox would be very close to being undefeated, so apparently this is an unbelievalbly talented team.

 

Your capacity to misunderstand (or at least pretend to misunderstand) the difference between "no such thing" and "not predictive" is baffling.

 

If you don't believe something, fine, but stop misrepresenting what others say by twisting arguments into dumbed-down nonsense.

[caulfield12]

I was really wondering if they intended on making the bullpen a little more flat. I mean, some of these guys are pretty round. If being in shape is so important, I suppose round is a shape though, right?

 

See Bartolo Colon, Terry Forster, John Kruk, Tony Gwynn, pre-dramatic weight loss Pablo Sandoval, Prince Fielder and CC Sabathia.

[caulfield12]

Your capacity to misunderstand (or at least pretend to misunderstand) the difference between "no such thing" and "not predictive" is baffling.

 

If you don't believe something, fine, but stop misrepresenting what others say by twisting arguments into dumbed-down nonsense.

 

 

.364 .364 .545 .909 -0.1

 

 

We can play the same game with Sierra.

 

8/22 so far with the White Sox. LOL at the WAR because of his terrible defense, even at a corner.

[southsider2k5]

What do you think the team's record would be right now without Abreu?

 

And what do you think Viciedo/Ramirez/Flowers would be hitting without his presence in the line-up and the hiring of Steverson?

 

It's an argument that will go round and round in circles.

 

 

That said, you can't judge the results this season...but you can look at some of the micro-managerial decisions and how he holds the team together in periods of adversity.

 

Obviously, with Erik Johnson pitching how he was projected to, with Eaton healthy for the first 40 games as well as Garcia (which means a LOT less of DeAza/Danks/Sierra), Chris Sale, a real bullpen with a better LHR than Downs and a healthy Nate Jones...it would also be a different story.

 

Only if you make it go in circles.

 

The team is much better so far this year. The are either at, or exceeding the expectations that were put upon this team for ideal conditions, and that is without factoring in some very big adversity this year including losing their #1, #2, and #4 starters, their top set up guy, their starting 2B, 3B, CF, RF, and other assorted small injuries. Firing Ventura now would be a Steinbrenner type move, not a Reinsdorf one.

 

If the Sox had the Cubs record, it might be a different story, but this team being around .500 right now is a minor miracle. Personally I think Ventura is closing to being a manager of the year candidate than an unemployment candidate. If the team collapses down the stretch after getting healthy I might change my tune, but as of today, there is zero chance that Robin Ventura is getting fired any time soon. I don't even see it as a possibility in this organization.

[Dick Allen]

Your capacity to misunderstand (or at least pretend to misunderstand) the difference between "no such thing" and "not predictive" is baffling.

 

If you don't believe something, fine, but stop misrepresenting what others say by twisting arguments into dumbed-down nonsense.

Oh I'm sorry, I mistated. Leury Garcia, because he is a major leaguer, is just as much a "clutch hitter' as anyone else in his hitting class, which if you go by the numbers, includes what was available on the White Sox bench last night.

[Eminor3rd]

Oh I'm sorry, I mistated. Leury Garcia, because he is a major leaguer, is just as much a "clutch hitter' as anyone else in his hitting class, which if you go by the numbers, includes what was available on the White Sox bench last night.

 

More accurately, Leury Garcia is just as much a .216/.275/.297 (56 wRC+) hitter as Marcus Semien is a .220/.286./.348 (73 wRC+) hitter.

 

Semien was the better choice, but not because of his 2014 clutch hits.

[Dick Allen]

More accurately, Leury Garcia is just as much a .216/.275/.297 (56 wRC+) hitter as Marcus Semien is a .220/.286./.348 (73 wRC+) hitter.

 

Semien was the better choice, but not because of his 2014 clutch hits.

Actually, coming into that AB

Garcia .222/.282/.306

Semien .220/.286/.348

 

vs. LHP

Garcia .357/.357/.571

Semien .250/.313/.432

[Eminor3rd]

Actually, coming into that AB

Garcia .222/.282/.306

Semien .220/.286/.348

 

vs. LHP

Garcia .357/.357/.571

Semien .250/.313/.432

 

Ok, so it was closer than one would think. The split data on Garcia isn't going to be useful after 16 PA.

[Dick Allen]

Ok, so it was closer than one would think. The split data on Garcia isn't going to be useful after 16 PA.

The bottom line is even if Semien hit there, it wasn't a huge upgrade, at least at this point in their careers. You might as well give Leury a shot. There might be a situation someday where he has to get a shot when you really have to win.

[Eminor3rd]

The bottom line is even if Semien hit there, it wasn't a huge upgrade, at least at this point in their careers. You might as well give Leury a shot. There might be a situation someday where he has to get a shot when you really have to win.

 

I agree with that.

[Chicago White Sox]

The bottom line is even if Semien hit there, it wasn't a huge upgrade, at least at this point in their careers. You might as well give Leury a shot. There might be a situation someday where he has to get a shot when you really have to win.

Except for the fact that Semien takes a f***ton of pitches and gives the rest of the lineup additional looks at the opposing pitcher. Also, I'm glad we can completely ignore their minor league careers and base our expectations for last night's game strictly on their performance so far this year. Nothing like using 35 PAs to justify decision-making.

[Dick Allen]

Except for the fact that Semien takes a f***ton of pitches and gives the rest of the lineup additional looks at the opposing pitcher. Also, I'm glad we can completely ignore their minor league careers and base our expectations for last night's game strictly on their performance so far this year. Nothing like using 35 PAs to justify decision-making.

It was the last out. If Semien didn't reach base, how does the taking pitches for everyone else to see come into play? To tell you the truth, I think what Semien is doing this year at this level is more indicative of what you can expect from him presently than what he did in AA last year.

[ptatc]

Yes, I believe he will be managing in 2017. He isn't ozzie, his mouth won't cost him. He's a White Sox legend; JR won't approve of any firing I don't think.

If he "let" Harrelson fire LaRussa, he will "let" Hahn fire Ventura.

[Eminor3rd]

If you make a guy GM and give him responsibility for winning, you have to let him hire or fire personnel as he pleases.