Ventura rips the team

[Dick Allen]

If you make a guy GM and give him responsibility for winning, you have to let him hire or fire personnel as he pleases.

Hahn gave him an extension. It seems like he likes Robin as a manager far better than the consensus here.

[Dick Allen]

That was 28 years ago. Not sure how it is relevant today.

 

 

This. However, Hahn has given every indication that the team is Ventura's and as crazy as it sounds, I don't think winning or losing is all that important to Hahn right now.

JR has said it was the biggest mistake he has made, but also said it is a mistake he would make again. So I'm sure he would try to talk Hahn or KW or both out of it if he was against it, but ultimately let them do their jobs.

[The Ginger Kid]

I love how everyone was fired up for this team when it came out of the gate looking sharp offensively. Now that key injuries have forced roster moves, it's suddenly Ventura's ignorance that's to blame.

[southsider2k5]

JR has said it was the biggest mistake he has made, but also said it is a mistake he would make again. So I'm sure he would try to talk Hahn or KW or both out of it if he was against it, but ultimately let them do their jobs.

 

I thought he stopped Kenny from firing both Ozzie and Greg Walker at different points?

[ptatc]

That was 28 years ago. Not sure how it is relevant today.

 

 

This. However, Hahn has given every indication that the team is Ventura's and as crazy as it sounds, I don't think winning or losing is all that important to Hahn right now.

It's relevant as JR allows the GM to control the manager/coach. I can't think of an instance where he hasn't.

[ptatc]

You're right here but my post was launched because I think it's silly to say, "Reinsdorf did this 28 years ago, he'll do it again now." It's all circumstantial. It's important to note that Harrelson and Hahn are about as far a part as individuals that you can possibly be.

 

Hawk = uneducated, old timer, former player, loud mouth, open spigot Southerner.

Hahn = awe-inspiring scholar, new-age, analytical, intensively calculated Jewish guy.

It's not silly. JR hires GMs and let's them handle the job. I gave an example of him letting the GM do something he didn't want to happen. That is JRs policy. Can you think of an instance where the GM wanted to fire a manager/coach and JR wouldn't let him??

 

 

Edited May 13, 2014 by ptatc

[ptatc]

I thought he stopped Kenny from firing both Ozzie and Greg Walker at different points?

As far as I know JR got the three of them in a room and tried to have them work it out for a year and they all agreed to it. When that didn't work, JR allowed KW to trade him to the Marlins.

[Jake]

A lot of managers believe (and, apparently, players too) that guys get out of whack when their batting order position is changed. Given how little the batting order matters to game outcomes, who cares if you put a bad player higher in the order for a few games while you wait for the normal guy to come back? Parent had just said to the media yesterday that ADA felt very uncomfortable hitting leadoff.

[southsider2k5]

A lot of managers believe (and, apparently, players too) that guys get out of whack when their batting order position is changed. Given how little the batting order matters to game outcomes, who cares if you put a bad player higher in the order for a few games while you wait for the normal guy to come back? Parent had just said to the media yesterday that ADA felt very uncomfortable hitting leadoff.

 

He also looks pretty uncomfortable in the field and running the bases.

[Chicago White Sox]

A lot of managers believe (and, apparently, players too) that guys get out of whack when their batting order position is changed. Given how little the batting order matters to game outcomes, who cares if you put a bad player higher in the order for a few games while you wait for the normal guy to come back? Parent had just said to the media yesterday that ADA felt very uncomfortable hitting leadoff.

I agree with this logic to some extent, but batting your worst hitter leadoff isn't the answer. Why potentially give Garcia an extra plate appearance and likely hurt your chances of men being on-base for Abreu? I don't really care if De Aza or anyone feels uncomfortable for a couple of games, they need to put the well-being of the team ahead of themselves.

[Jake]

ADA has certainly not made it easy to like him. I also have a feeling that L Garcia was playing CF because ADA doesn't like it, too.

 

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that ADA was a better hitter than Leury yesterday, either

[SCCWS]

If Ventura wants to manage this team, he will be, unless the team takes a major step backwards when it shouldn't. If he was going to be fired, he would have been last year, and not given an extension.

 

The fact that this is about a .500 team with all of the injury problems this year will go a long way towards securing that.

 

Last year's team was 500 in May also. Look around baseball and you will see every team has injuries. Ther Red Sox won a world Series last year with multiple injuries throughout the season. Unfortunately for the White Sox, the weak minor league system makes it difficult to find suitable replacements when a player goes down.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

I agree with this logic to some extent, but batting your worst hitter leadoff isn't the answer. Why potentially give Garcia an extra plate appearance and likely hurt your chances of men being on-base for Abreu? I don't really care if De Aza or anyone feels uncomfortable for a couple of games, they need to put the well-being of the team ahead of themselves.

 

 

In real life players have different roles they feel good in and roles they aren't as comfortable in and in baseball that means you have to put guys in a position to succeed. De Aza telling Ventura he doesn't like leading off isn't a sign of weakness or a fault it's a reality and I'm glad he said it.

 

That said, Ramirez sure as hell hopefully said the same thing, because there isn't one good reason other than P/PA he shouldn't be leading off.

 

We are putting three awful hitters in front of Abrue most nights (9,1,2) and it's brutal it's actively costing us runs.

 

I'm not asking Robin to be Billy Beane on steroids but I would like him to use common sense. Play the damn percentages when it makes sense.

[ptatc]

There is rumors this happened with both Ozzie and Walker. It's all conjecture though. No one knows what really happens behind closed doors so it's moot.

 

 

 

This is the type of stuff that makes me want to join the De Aza haters. What is this s***? He should be grateful he had the opportunity with the way he's playing. Take some pitches, do your best and shut up. De Aza is not the manager, he should play the role he is given and be happy he has any role at all.

You still have no basis for the conclusion that JR wouldn't let Hahn fires Ventura. Any examples regardless of how old or different sport, Krause not bringing Jackson back, point to the opposite.

 

Hahn thinks enough of Ventura to give him an extension. It's not JR dictating Hahn's actions.

[Jake]

For all we know, it's Hahn that is in love with Ventura and JR who doesn't give a s*** who manages

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

A lot of managers believe (and, apparently, players too) that guys get out of whack when their batting order position is changed. Given how little the batting order matters to game outcomes, who cares if you put a bad player higher in the order for a few games while you wait for the normal guy to come back? Parent had just said to the media yesterday that ADA felt very uncomfortable hitting leadoff.

ADA seems to express how he doesnt like playing Cf and now doesn't like leading off. He doesn't seem to like sliding very much either considering he planted his face into the ground on an attempted steal of 2nd and planted his spike into the ground and flipped himself over without even a play on him at home plate.

 

For a guy who's career may depend on him being more versatile he certainly is being a whiny pain in the ass ( and his own face).

[chitownsportsfan]

For all we know, it's Hahn that is in love with Ventura and JR who doesn't give a s*** who manages

 

Alright, are you paying for all the booze it's going to take to make me forget this possibility?

[southsider2k5]

Last year's team was 500 in May also. Look around baseball and you will see every team has injuries. Ther Red Sox won a world Series last year with multiple injuries throughout the season. Unfortunately for the White Sox, the weak minor league system makes it difficult to find suitable replacements when a player goes down.

 

Tell me the team that has had as many as the White Sox.

[caulfield12]

Only if you make it go in circles.

 

The team is much better so far this year. The are either at, or exceeding the expectations that were put upon this team for ideal conditions, and that is without factoring in some very big adversity this year including losing their #1, #2, and #4 starters, their top set up guy, their starting 2B, 3B, CF, RF, and other assorted small injuries. Firing Ventura now would be a Steinbrenner type move, not a Reinsdorf one.

 

If the Sox had the Cubs record, it might be a different story, but this team being around .500 right now is a minor miracle. Personally I think Ventura is closing to being a manager of the year candidate than an unemployment candidate. If the team collapses down the stretch after getting healthy I might change my tune, but as of today, there is zero chance that Robin Ventura is getting fired any time soon. I don't even see it as a possibility in this organization.

 

If anyone really believes that Johnson and Paulino weren't 4 and 5, they're crazy.

 

You could have made an argument that Johnson for one month pitched better than Danks, and that Johnson was a 3 starter coming into the season, but that's more a testament to how mediocre Danks was coming off his injury, which was expected/predicted. Or maybe it's indicative of the general weakness of the starting rotation coming into 2014. Or the lack of top prospects in our minor league system, that Johnson was so highly-rated and is now one of the biggest question marks going forward in less than a month.

Edited May 14, 2014 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

ADA seems to express how he doesnt like playing Cf and now doesn't like leading off. He doesn't seem to like sliding very much either considering he planted his face into the ground on an attempted steal of 2nd and planted his spike into the ground and flipped himself over without even a play on him at home plate.

 

For a guy who's career may depend on him being more versatile he certainly is being a whiny pain in the ass ( and his own face).

 

 

Wasn't DeAza also leading off at least part-time his first 2-3 months of playing with the White Sox, when he put up a 900+ OPS?

Or the following season?

 

He was also fine in CF then, more or less.

 

So what happened?

[ptatc]

You're right, I don't. I never made that point though. I agreed with another poster that Hahn should have the autonomy of running the team. I didn't even dabble my opinion towards the power structure or the decisions, if any, that are at hand. All I had said was that we shouldn't be using what Reinsdorf did when Hawk was the GM as any basis of what is going to happen with the team today. Other than that, it's all conjecture.

Ok. I still don't see why not. It's past practice. If it's what he has done, I don't see why it should change unless there is evidence to show he has changed the power he gives his GM.

[Balta1701]

Wasn't DeAza also leading off at least part-time his first 2-3 months of playing with the White Sox, when he put up a 900+ OPS?

Or the following season?

 

He was also fine in CF then, more or less.

 

So what happened?

He got off to a really slow start last year too and that was with more consistent usage and preparation.

[balfanman]

He got off to a really slow start last year too and that was with more consistent usage and preparation.

 

It seems to me that several years ago DeAza had won the opening day starting CF job with the Marlins and I do recall reading that when he came over to the Sox that he was considered a real centerfielder, which we had not had in a while.

 

DeAza is really starting to bother me too. He doesn't seem to be comfortable doing anything. Maybe if we could transplant some of Eaton's mentality into him it would get him motivated.

[SCCWS]

Tell me the team that has had as many as the White Sox.

 

Rangers have 13 guys on the DL. Also check Tigers, Dodgers, Yankees to name a few.