cabiness42 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 LMAO. You often use a guy's WAR and add it to the team win total to tell us what difference he would have made. You did it with AJ last year, laughing at Greg thinking he would have made more than a couple of games difference. Now, a quarter way through the season, Adam Dunn could have already made 2 or 3 games difference? At least be consistent. The good news is Dunn's production this season isn't all that much better than his production the last calendar year. He might be able to maintain it or at least come pretty close. No, my point to Greg last year was that the Sox were so bad, one 5-6 WAR player wasn't going to get the Sox into the playoffs, and in fact would have cost the Sox about 2-3 draft positions. This year, a 5-6 WAR player might actually make the difference in getting into the playoffs, but aside from that, Dunn's biggest value is his trade value. So far this year, Seattle has a .597 OPS from the DH position, .664 for the Yankees, .775 for Oakland and .785 for Baltimore. I think people are underestimating what one of these teams might give up to get Dunn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (bmags @ May 21, 2014 -> 12:55 PM) I'd be happy to see Adam back. At this point I'm kind of done with the commodification of our players and just want to get back to enjoying them play. Such a great point. Thank you for saying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 21, 2014 -> 12:57 PM) The only people that claim it is or is intended to be the "be all, end all" of statistics are those who don't understand what they're talking about. EDIT: Like you. Sabermetrics is largely a gimmick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ May 21, 2014 -> 12:57 PM) The only people that claim it is or is intended to be the "be all, end all" of statistics are those who don't understand what they're talking about. EDIT: Like you. Maybe while trying to make someone look a fool next time your saber buddy starts adding up individual WAR coming up with team win totals, you can point this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:08 PM) Maybe while trying to make someone look a fool This is beyond awesome coming from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:12 PM) This is beyond awesome coming from you. Everything I post is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:08 PM) Maybe while trying to make someone look a fool next time your saber buddy starts adding up individual WAR coming up with team win totals, you can point this out. Are you referring to witesoxfan in this thread? Because you're the only one who is trying to use adding WAR totals to win totals to make a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:05 PM) Sabermetrics is largely a gimmick. Riiiiiight. Reams of statistical studies and behavioral patterns of actual baseball front offices claim otherwise. Wait, did you just post something false? Isn't that against board regulations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:08 PM) Maybe while trying to make someone look a fool next time your saber buddy starts adding up individual WAR coming up with team win totals, you can point this out. You are seriously the only person to have brought up WAR in this thread, so obviously I use it as an end all, be all. Good one. Yes, I may use it as an estimation (a player with 3 WAR can be expected to add approximately 3 wins, but that's all subject to what he did and when he did it, but he's obviously fairly solid player), so if I say that AJ would have taken from the Sox from 63 wins to 66 wins, it was with the understood caveat that the number is not without error. He may have added 5 wins, he may have added 10 wins or 12 wins, or he may have been so bad in those situations when the Sox needed him most that he actually ends up costing the Sox even more, losing the Sox a game or two. I don't see how that would be possible, but anything is. Pretty sure any time the idea of WAR is discussed, it's always with the words "this is not the end all, be all." That is what makes posts like this... QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 12:47 PM) I got a laugh out of that too. WAR is the last word in baseball arguments until it's not. ...absolutely hilarious. It's the easiest to cite and paints a pretty clear initial picture which is why it's cited so often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:05 PM) Sabermetrics is largely a gimmick. Bill James defined sabermetrics as "the search for objective knowledge about baseball." Thus, sabermetrics attempts to answer objective questions about baseball, such as "which player on the Red Sox contributed the most to the team's offense?" or "How many home runs will Ken Griffey hit next year?" It cannot deal with the subjective judgments which are also important to the game, such as "Who is your favorite player?" or "That was a great game." Calling sabermetrics a gimmick is like saying hitting home runs is a gimmick. NO TEAM WILL EVER USE THAT except that all teams, to some degree, run their teams through sabermetric analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:05 PM) Sabermetrics is largely a gimmick. So trolling. I bet you thought math was a gimmick in school too, right? Because that is all it is. Creating formulae and algorithms to analyze measurable events and data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) Calling sabermetrics a gimmick is like saying hitting home runs is a gimmick. NO TEAM WILL EVER USE THAT except that all teams, to some degree, run their teams through sabermetric analysis. Like I said, it's largely a gimmick. Who has benefitted most from Sabremetrics? Those who sell products based around bootleg stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 02:56 PM) Like I said, it's largely a gimmick. Who has benefitted most from Sabremetrics? Those who sell products based around bootleg stats. I'd say the Boston Red Sox have benefited the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:55 PM) So trolling. I bet you thought math was a gimmick in school too, right? Because that is all it is. Creating formulae and algorithms to analyze measurable events and data. What players have Sabremetrics discovered? I could tell you Mike Trout is an elite player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:56 PM) Like I said, it's largely a gimmick. Who has benefitted most from Sabremetrics? Those who sell products based around bootleg stats. The Boston Red Sox have won 3 World Series in 10 years. How's that? If that's not good enough, the Rays have become one of the best and most well run teams in the majors, the Athletics are one of the best teams in the league, the Cardinals have been at the top of the division and competitive for a number of years now, and the Astros have the best farm system in the majors. Meanwhile, teams that don't use them as extensively (because, let's face it, EVERY team uses sabermetrics) like the Royals, Twins, and Mariners are consistently finishing at the bottom of their divisions. Calling it a gimmick is the same thing as calling home runs gimmicks. It's a ridiculous premise based entirely on the concept of a term I refer to as "Marty-trolling." Edited May 21, 2014 by witesoxfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:57 PM) I'd say the Boston Red Sox have benefited the most. What about the great Alex Anthopouis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:59 PM) The Boston Red Sox have won 3 World Series in 10 years. How's that? Take away their money and their PEDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:58 PM) What players have Sabremetrics discovered? I could tell you Mike Trout is an elite player. Well done. Changed the subject AND created a straw man in that brief a post. We aren't talking about scouting high school kids here. No one is saying advanced statistical analysis can do that. No one. We're talking about results in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) Take away their money and their PEDs. Why would you do that? That has absolutely nothing to do with sabermetrics whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 21, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) Well done. Changed the subject AND created a straw man in that brief a post. We aren't talking about scouting high school kids here. No one is saying advanced statistical analysis can do that. No one. We're talking about results in the majors. What does Sabremetrics tell you that you can't find from the stats on the back of baseball cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 02:05 PM) What does Sabremetrics tell you that you can't find from the stats on the back of baseball cards. I didn't even know they still made baseball cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:56 PM) Who has benefitted most from Sabremetrics? Who has benefitted the most from baseball? Players and management. BASEBALL IS A GIMMICK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) Take away their money and their PEDs. Yes, only Boston Red Sox used PEDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 21, 2014 -> 01:59 PM) What about the great Alex Anthopouis? What about him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ May 21, 2014 -> 08:06 PM) I didn't even know they still made baseball cards. What do you use? The internet? THE INTERNET IS A GIMMICK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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