Off-the-radar trade candidates?

[The Ultimate Champion]

Alright so I admit I haven't been following these guys but there are always former top prospects out there who have either fallen on hard times (Noesi) or haven't taken steps forward as anticipated (Gillaspie) which can be acquired cheaply or even for free.

 

One player that comes to mind as a "cheaper" type potentially might be Mike Montgomery?? I'm thinking here, this guy looked awesome with the Royals but in the Shields deal his inclusion was almost more of an afterthought and Odorizzi was considered the better get even though Montgomery from what I'd seen of each looked a whole hell of a lot more talented than Odorizzi ever was. So what happened to this guy, did he lose his stuff or something? Checking B-R he's been at the Triple A level for parts of 4 straight seasons, 2011-now. These are the kinds of players we should look into acquiring.

 

Also I would be very interested in offering Rienzo to the Angels for Santiago back. Not sure they'd seriously consider that but if they did I'd be all like f*** yeah and stuff because I still like Hector & think he just probably needs real coaching not that psuedo coaching s*** that goes on on teams like the Angels where everybody is making $40M a piece and no one has any balls.

 

So else is out there? Some buy low type of arms, and an OF too, that's really what we need.

[GGajewski18]

Alright so I admit I haven't been following these guys but there are always former top prospects out there who have either fallen on hard times (Noesi) or haven't taken steps forward as anticipated (Gillaspie) which can be acquired cheaply or even for free.

 

One player that comes to mind as a "cheaper" type potentially might be Mike Montgomery?? I'm thinking here, this guy looked awesome with the Royals but in the Shields deal his inclusion was almost more of an afterthought and Odorizzi was considered the better get even though Montgomery from what I'd seen of each looked a whole hell of a lot more talented than Odorizzi ever was. So what happened to this guy, did he lose his stuff or something? Checking B-R he's been at the Triple A level for parts of 4 straight seasons, 2011-now. These are the kinds of players we should look into acquiring.

 

Also I would be very interested in offering Rienzo to the Angels for Santiago back. Not sure they'd seriously consider that but if they did I'd be all like f*** yeah and stuff because I still like Hector & think he just probably needs real coaching not that psuedo coaching s*** that goes on on teams like the Angels where everybody is making $40M a piece and no one has any balls.

 

So else is out there? Some buy low type of arms, and an OF too, that's really what we need.

 

Rienzo for Santiago? No thanks. Santiago just got sent to AAA.

 

Montgomery is a good piece but I don't know what it would take to get him.

[Eminor3rd]

Didn't Montgomery have surgery of some kind?

[cabiness42]

Alright so I admit I haven't been following these guys but there are always former top prospects out there who have either fallen on hard times (Noesi) or haven't taken steps forward as anticipated (Gillaspie) which can be acquired cheaply or even for free.

 

One player that comes to mind as a "cheaper" type potentially might be Mike Montgomery?? I'm thinking here, this guy looked awesome with the Royals but in the Shields deal his inclusion was almost more of an afterthought and Odorizzi was considered the better get even though Montgomery from what I'd seen of each looked a whole hell of a lot more talented than Odorizzi ever was. So what happened to this guy, did he lose his stuff or something? Checking B-R he's been at the Triple A level for parts of 4 straight seasons, 2011-now. These are the kinds of players we should look into acquiring.

 

Also I would be very interested in offering Rienzo to the Angels for Santiago back. Not sure they'd seriously consider that but if they did I'd be all like f*** yeah and stuff because I still like Hector & think he just probably needs real coaching not that psuedo coaching s*** that goes on on teams like the Angels where everybody is making $40M a piece and no one has any balls.

 

So else is out there? Some buy low type of arms, and an OF too, that's really what we need.

 

I may actually get fired for laughing so hard at the thought of trading Rienzo for Santiago. Might as well throw in Sale and Abreu to even that trade out a bit.

[The Ultimate Champion]

People really think Rienzo has more upside than Santiago?

 

Rienzo has looked good but if one of them has a shot at being a #3 in MLB on talent alone it's Santiago. A few months ago had the Sox done Eaton for Rienzo instead of Eaton for Santiago I imagine that would have been quite the headscratcher to most Sox fans wondering why the DBacks would give Eaton away like that, as it was the trade looked pretty even.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

People really think Rienzo has more upside than Santiago?

 

Rienzo has looked good but if one of them has a shot at being a #3 in MLB on talent alone it's Santiago. A few months ago had the Sox done Eaton for Rienzo instead of Eaton for Santiago I imagine that would have been quite the headscratcher to most Sox fans wondering why the DBacks would give Eaton away like that, as it was the trade looked pretty even.

 

I don't think there is any question that Santiago has higher upside. The problem is what are the odds of his actually getting it all together and getting to that upside? Rienzo has a higher floor, and no where near the bust factor that Santiago has. Santiago blows away his ceiling. Can a pitching coach get him there? Seems Don Cooper was ready to give up on him seeing as he was traded this off season, and not someone else.

[The Ginger Kid]

Rienzo > Santiago. I know Hector flashes wicked s*** at times, and personally I just like the guy for who he is, but he's way, way too inconsistent.

[harfman77]

People really think Rienzo has more upside than Santiago?

 

Rienzo has looked good but if one of them has a shot at being a #3 in MLB on talent alone it's Santiago. A few months ago had the Sox done Eaton for Rienzo instead of Eaton for Santiago I imagine that would have been quite the headscratcher to most Sox fans wondering why the DBacks would give Eaton away like that, as it was the trade looked pretty even.

 

If the Angels offered up Santiago for Eaton and the Sox took it today it would be an even bigger head scratcher. Hahn did the right thing selling Santiago at his peak value. Rienzo is probably near his peak value now, so if you could deal him for a piece that may have long term value this is the time.

[Buehrle>Wood]

People really think Rienzo has more upside than Santiago?

 

Rienzo has looked good but if one of them has a shot at being a #3 in MLB on talent alone it's Santiago. A few months ago had the Sox done Eaton for Rienzo instead of Eaton for Santiago I imagine that would have been quite the headscratcher to most Sox fans wondering why the DBacks would give Eaton away like that, as it was the trade looked pretty even.

Yeah pretty much. Santiago peripherals are a lot better and his one knock against him (going long into games) hasn't shown to be a strength of Rienzo yet either

[LittleHurt05]

I don't think there is any question that Santiago has higher upside. The problem is what are the odds of his actually getting it all together and getting to that upside? Rienzo has a higher floor, and no where near the bust factor that Santiago has. Santiago blows away his ceiling. Can a pitching coach get him there? Seems Don Cooper was ready to give up on him seeing as he was traded this off season, and not someone else.

 

As a rebuilding team, wouldn't you prefer players with a higher upside as opposed to a higher floor?

[Balta1701]

As a rebuilding team, wouldn't you prefer players with a higher upside as opposed to a higher floor?

Some of both would be nice. If we've got Jose Abreu hitting 40 HR in the middle of the lineup and Chris Sale holding together the top of the rotation, a guy who can hit 7th, hit .280, do a decent job fielding, and maybe hit 15 HR is useful. A guy who can give you 200 innings and put up an ERA in the low to mid 4's, covering a spot in the middle of the rotation, similarly very useful.

[harfman77]

As a rebuilding team, wouldn't you prefer players with a higher upside as opposed to a higher floor?

 

Not necessarily, you would want a good mix of players. You are never going have 14 all star level players on your roster so you need to pick and choose role players that can contribute at a reasonable level for an affordable amount of money. Sure you would want a lot of high ceiling guys in your farm system, but in the majors you need to have guys that can hold down a spot for a period of time.

 

Gillaspie for instance, will probably never be an all star level 3B, but he is at least an average 3B and can hold that spot down for the next 4-5 years for a relatively inexpensive hit against the payroll.

[Andy the Clown]

People really think Rienzo has more upside than Santiago?

 

Rienzo has looked good but if one of them has a shot at being a #3 in MLB on talent alone it's Santiago. A few months ago had the Sox done Eaton for Rienzo instead of Eaton for Santiago I imagine that would have been quite the headscratcher to most Sox fans wondering why the DBacks would give Eaton away like that, as it was the trade looked pretty even.

 

They're both roster fillers, and aren't worth the time it took you to write this post.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I don't think there is any question that Santiago has higher upside. The problem is what are the odds of his actually getting it all together and getting to that upside? Rienzo has a higher floor, and no where near the bust factor that Santiago has. Santiago blows away his ceiling. Can a pitching coach get him there? Seems Don Cooper was ready to give up on him seeing as he was traded this off season, and not someone else.

Do we know this though?

 

Coop (after the Santiago deal, in ST) did a prolonged interview with Comcast where he specifically cited the joys to be found in working with guys like Santiago as well as the other bigger names like Sale and Buehrle which are always focused on.

 

As far as I know, all we can assume is that 1) Sox needed to trade pitching, 2) they had 4 lefties which represented an obvious area of strength from which to deal, and 3) Santiago for a number of very easy to identify reasons was the odd man out. I'm not sure we can assume Coop had anything to do with that.

[cabiness42]

They're both roster fillers, and aren't worth the time it took you to write this post.

 

I think you're drastically overestimating the value of his time.

[The Ultimate Champion]

They're both roster fillers, and aren't worth the time it took you to write this post.

Yeah but no though.

[southsider2k5]

As a rebuilding team, wouldn't you prefer players with a higher upside as opposed to a higher floor?

 

If the think they can get the guy to respond, sure. But seeing as they traded the guy, I think that answers the question when it comes to Santiago.

[caulfield12]

If that's the case, then Cooper also felt that Gio Gonzalez and Edwin Jackson couldn't be worked with, too.

 

Or that Brian Anderson would be better than Chris Young.

 

Or that Daniel Hudson and Brandon McCarthy would never amount to anything.

 

That he should have known from looking at Buehrle and Danks that Buehrle would never miss a start and Danks' career would be derailed because of a flaw in his delivery.

 

That Sergio Santos was worth less going forward than Nestor Molina.

[Balta1701]

If that's the case, then Cooper also felt that Gio Gonzalez and Edwin Jackson couldn't be worked with, too.

 

Or that Brian Anderson would be better than Chris Young.

Or that Daniel Hudson and Brandon McCarthy would never amount to anything.

 

That he should have known from looking at Buehrle and Danks that Buehrle would never miss a start and Danks' career would be derailed because of a flaw in his delivery.

 

That Sergio Santos was worth less going forward than Nestor Molina.

Something tells me that on the first bolded part, Coop's opinion wasn't allt hat important.

 

On the second bolded part, I've gotten the strong impression that Coop's opinion was key in why both of those trades happened. Even though the first one was awful, even I'll admit, both of those guys have had injury-riddled careers, which might well be why Coop would say to move them.

[southsider2k5]

If that's the case, then Cooper also felt that Gio Gonzalez and Edwin Jackson couldn't be worked with, too.

 

Or that Brian Anderson would be better than Chris Young.

 

Or that Daniel Hudson and Brandon McCarthy would never amount to anything.

 

That he should have known from looking at Buehrle and Danks that Buehrle would never miss a start and Danks' career would be derailed because of a flaw in his delivery.

 

That Sergio Santos was worth less going forward than Nestor Molina.

 

90% of that stuff isn't nearly the same sort of thing. No idea what Don Cooper has to do with Brian Anderson and Chris Young.

 

Edwin Jackson was a salary dump, and he hasn't been nearly as good since he left the Sox.

 

Gio Gonzalez never pitched in the majors.

 

Dan Hudson just had his second TJS.

 

Brandon McCarthy hasn't sniffed John Danks jock over the time after that trade.

 

Mark Buehrle was here before Cooper, and was pretty f***ing good after Cooper got here.

 

Sergio Santos was a closer, and that deal traces back more to our recent hire from Toronto than anything else... and oh yeah, Sergio Santos also blew out his arm.

 

Mostly this was a chance to ramble off a bunch of names again, I think.

[Balta1701]

Gio Gonzalez never pitched in the majors.

What the actual f***?

[southsider2k5]

What the actual f***?

 

With the White Sox.

[caulfield12]

90% of that stuff isn't nearly the same sort of thing. No idea what Don Cooper has to do with Brian Anderson and Chris Young.

 

Edwin Jackson was a salary dump, and he hasn't been nearly as good since he left the Sox.

 

Gio Gonzalez never pitched in the majors.

 

Dan Hudson just had his second TJS.

 

Brandon McCarthy hasn't sniffed John Danks jock over the time after that trade.

 

Mark Buehrle was here before Cooper, and was pretty f***ing good after Cooper got here.

 

Sergio Santos was a closer, and that deal traces back more to our recent hire from Toronto than anything else... and oh yeah, Sergio Santos also blew out his arm.

 

Mostly this was a chance to ramble off a bunch of names again, I think.

 

 

C'mon, you honestly don't think Don Cooper had any opinion about Gio TWICE? Wasn't familiar with him at all? That KW just went all rogue twice and traded him without any commentary from the best pitching coach in baseball?

 

The point is that we also have to hold someone accountable for misjudging talent, if we're going to give Cooper all the credit for choosing to protect Quintana over Santiago (and trading Santiago wasn't even an option, in all likelihood), then who do we blame for Mark Teahen or Nick Swisher? Picking Anderson over Brian Young? Mitchell over Trout, etc.? Davidson looking like he's a bust so far?

 

Ozzie Guillen? Buddy Bell?

 

Why wasn't Cooper able to see that Danks/Floyd would break down and that Buehrle would be a 8-1 and 2ish ERA in 2014?

 

If we want to ascribe all these magical powers to Cooper for the Santiago trade, then shouldn't he also get the blame for Danks/Floyd never taking the next step after 2008 and then breaking down? With the Sox cutting ties to Mark Buehrle when they would have been better off giving Mark $17.5 million per season than Danks $13.5 million?

 

Is Cooper also responsible for Paulino being atrocious, and Erik Johnson regressing?

 

Shouldn't Cooper have been able to see that Zach Stewart and Nestor Molina wouldn't ever amount to anything?

 

We can't just selectively credit Cooper.

 

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

C'mon, you honestly don't think Don Cooper had any opinion about Gio TWICE? Wasn't familiar with him at all? That KW just went all rogue twice and traded him without any commentary from the best pitching coach in baseball?

 

The point is that we also have to hold someone accountable for misjudging talent, if we're going to give Cooper all the credit for choosing to protect Quintana over Santiago (and trading Santiago wasn't even an option, in all likelihood), then who do we blame for Mark Teahen or Nick Swisher? Picking Anderson over Brian Young? Mitchell over Trout, etc.? Davidson looking like he's a bust so far?

 

Ozzie Guillen? Buddy Bell?

 

Why wasn't Cooper able to see that Danks/Floyd would break down and that Buehrle would be a 8-1 and 2ish ERA in 2014?

 

If we want to ascribe all these magical powers to Cooper for the Santiago trade, then shouldn't he also get the blame for Danks/Floyd never taking the next step after 2008 and then breaking down? With the Sox cutting ties to Mark Buehrle when they would have been better off giving Mark $17.5 million per season than Danks $13.5 million?

 

Is Cooper also responsible for Paulino being atrocious, and Erik Johnson regressing?

 

Shouldn't Cooper have been able to see that Zach Stewart and Nestor Molina wouldn't ever amount to anything?

 

We can't just selectively credit Cooper.

Why on God's green earth do you keep pretending that the pitching coach would have major inputs on position players?

 

We can certainly "selectively credit/blame" cooper when it comes to the pitching staff.

[southsider2k5]

C'mon, you honestly don't think Don Cooper had any opinion about Gio TWICE? Wasn't familiar with him at all? That KW just went all rogue twice and traded him without any commentary from the best pitching coach in baseball?

 

The point is that we also have to hold someone accountable for misjudging talent, if we're going to give Cooper all the credit for choosing to protect Quintana over Santiago (and trading Santiago wasn't even an option, in all likelihood), then who do we blame for Mark Teahen or Nick Swisher? Picking Anderson over Brian Young? Mitchell over Trout, etc.? Davidson looking like he's a bust so far?

 

Ozzie Guillen? Buddy Bell?

 

Why wasn't Cooper able to see that Danks/Floyd would break down and that Buehrle would be a 8-1 and 2ish ERA in 2014?

 

If we want to ascribe all these magical powers to Cooper for the Santiago trade, then shouldn't he also get the blame for Danks/Floyd never taking the next step after 2008 and then breaking down? With the Sox cutting ties to Mark Buehrle when they would have been better off giving Mark $17.5 million per season than Danks $13.5 million?

 

Is Cooper also responsible for Paulino being atrocious, and Erik Johnson regressing?

 

Shouldn't Cooper have been able to see that Zach Stewart and Nestor Molina wouldn't ever amount to anything?

 

We can't just selectively credit Cooper.

 

I'm sorry but this is just funny. Being a good pitching coach doesn't mean you can fix everything in the universe. That is just a stupid standard to hold guys to, and doesn't make any sense.