Webb should close

[Balta1701]

Actually you can only get a BS if you are pitching in a save situation. But relievers who are not closers do not get as many save chances because they get pulled. Matt Thornton was the closer for parts of several seasons under Ozzie. Unfortunately he failed in those chances and was relagated back to set up each time. Once Reed arrived on the scene, Thornton stayed as the setup guy.

But by definition, pitching in the 7th or 8th inning is a save situation even if you're not the closer.

 

If Matt Thornton came into a game in the 8th inning with a 1 run lead and surrendered a run, he'd be credited with a blown save even if Bobby Jenks was warming in the bullpen at the time.

[southsider2k5]

Actually you can only get a BS if you are pitching in a save situation. But relievers who are not closers do not get as many save chances because they get pulled. Matt Thornton was the closer for parts of several seasons under Ozzie. Unfortunately he failed in those chances and was relagated back to set up each time. Once Reed arrived on the scene, Thornton stayed as the setup guy.

 

The big problem with your scenario is that while it is technically a save situation when they come in, because the 9th inning guy comes in after them, they only get credit for a Hold if they don't give up the tying run. If they give up the lead, they get a blown save. If you want a generic stat, Holds is where you look at for set up guys, not blown saves. Blown saves is a stupid stat for anyone but a closer. It is like judging Frank Thomas by sacrifice bunts.

[southsider2k5]

But by definition, pitching in the 7th or 8th inning is a save situation even if you're not the closer.

 

If Matt Thornton came into a game in the 8th inning with a 1 run lead and surrendered a run, he'd be credited with a blown save even if Bobby Jenks was warming in the bullpen at the time.

 

The thing is if a reliever comes in with the bases loaded, no one out, and a one run lead, gives up a sac fly, and then gets out of the inning with a DP, he still gets the blown save.

[Dick Allen]

Non closing relievers will always have a horrid BS percentage because they can't accumulate saves, but can accumulate blown saves, and if you come in with a 1 run lead and a guy on 3rd with 2 out in the 7th inning, and the first guy you face hits a grounder the 3B kicks, you have just picked up a blown save.

 

Or if you leave with a 1 run lead and a runner on first after pitching a couple of solid inningsand Scott Downs gives up a 2 run homer the next pitch, blown save.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

The thing is if a reliever comes in with the bases loaded, no one out, and a one run lead, gives up a sac fly, and then gets out of the inning with a DP, he still gets the blown save.

 

Or if a closer starts the 9th with a 3 run lead, gives up two runs and leaves with the bases loaded, he gets credit for a hold, not a blown save.

[VAfan]

Another blown save tonight by Bellisario.

 

After a long stretch of appearances where he gave up no runs. http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id...onald-belisario

Since he's been the closer, he's had only one scoreless appearance in 5 tries.

 

Webb, on the other hand, has been scored on in only 5 of 19 appearances all year, and only 3 times since his first two appearances of the season. Yes, his WHIP is higher than others, but he's done a very good job of not being scored on.

 

You could make a case for Petricka, who's been scored on only 4 times all season in 22 appearances, with a better WHIP and ERA than Webb.

 

Both seem better than Putnam, who's been scored on 4 times in 15 appearances.

 

But, please, don't keep trotting Bellisario out there. He doesn't pitch nearly as well as closer as he did as a set-up guy.

[southsider2k5]

Another blown save tonight by Bellisario.

 

After a long stretch of appearances where he gave up no runs. http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id...onald-belisario

Since he's been the closer, he's had only one scoreless appearance in 5 tries.

 

Webb, on the other hand, has been scored on in only 5 of 19 appearances all year, and only 3 times since his first two appearances of the season. Yes, his WHIP is higher than others, but he's done a very good job of not being scored on.

 

You could make a case for Petricka, who's been scored on only 4 times all season in 22 appearances, with a better WHIP and ERA than Webb.

 

Both seem better than Putnam, who's been scored on 4 times in 15 appearances.

 

But, please, don't keep trotting Bellisario out there. He doesn't pitch nearly as well as closer as he did as a set-up guy.

 

This post was over right there for me. If you saw the game, you saw his defense give up four outs. You'd also know that the run scored, was an out that was left on the bases.

[maggsmaggs]

This post was over right there for me. If you saw the game, you saw his defense give up four outs. You'd also know that the run scored, was an out that was left on the bases.

Since he became closer, Belisario has pitched 5 innings, allowing 10 hits, 3 BBs and 5 Ks (2.60 WHIP/10.80 ERA). He is not getting the job done as the closer.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Since he became closer, Belisario has pitched 5 innings, allowing 10 hits, 3 BBs and 5 Ks (2.60 WHIP/10.80 ERA). He is not getting the job done as the closer.

 

The first three outings he was terrible. The last two he has done his job.

[Jake]

Yeah he's looked fine. Sample sizes, people.

[Eminor3rd]

Yeah he's looked fine. Sample sizes, people.

 

This is the hilarious part of all this discussion. A guy has one or two good/bad outings, and we want to annoint or write him off for 2 f***ing innings.

 

Put that in perspective in your head, people of Soxtalk. A starter can throw five good innings and then give up a couple runs in the sixth. Should that guy immediately lose his rotation spot? It takes a closer 6 games to get even THAT much exposure. This is why reliever performance is so volatile -- we just don't see enough of them to know what we're going to get out of them until practically the end of the season.

 

It takes a pretty extreme set of performances to know what to do with a guy after 25 innings or whatever these guys have accumulated thus far.

 

 

[Buehrle>Wood]

I liked rotowires take on Belisario today, thinking Guerra and Downs are next in line for our closer spot. Uh, what

[caulfield12]

Look at the Tigers/A's game last night...

 

Nathan basically threw his rookie 3B (Castellanos) under the bus, and so did his manager Ausmus.

 

It's Nathan's job to pitch over mistakes or "could have/should have" been outs.

 

In the end, a closer is defined by his performance in those situations, like it or not.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that even though Belisario's pitched in some difficult circumstances/situations, and that's uncontrollable on his part...his performance after a mistake happens is controllable.

 

The White Sox won the game, everyone went home happy and Sierra had a nice "comeback/redemption" moment, but both the defense and the pitching needs to be better for this team to make it to the next level. Granted, it's a bit unfair to get all over Belisario, he was never expected to close a single game for the White Sox when he was signed as a bounceback candidate, but that's the current situation that he's facing, like it or not.

 

There's probably not a small amount of trepidation about putting Webb or Petricka in that position already, combined with the HOPES that Belisario can get on a really hot streak and make himself a "sell high" candidate at the deadline.

 

Edited May 29, 2014 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Look at the Tigers/A's game last night...

 

Nathan basically threw his rookie 3B (Castellanos) under the bus, and so did his manager Ausmus.

 

It's Nathan's job to pitch over mistakes or "could have/should have" been outs.

 

In the end, a closer is defined by his performance in those situations, like it or not.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that even though Belisario's pitched in some difficult circumstances/situations, and that's uncontrollable on his part...his performance after a mistake happens is controllable.

 

The White Sox won the game, everyone went home happy and Sierra had a nice "comeback/redemption" moment, but both the defense and the pitching needs to be better for this team to make it to the next level. Granted, it's a bit unfair to get all over Belisario, he was never expected to close a single game for the White Sox when he was signed as a bounceback candidate, but that's the situation now that he's facing.

 

By that logic, he won the game, so he did his job.

 

[witesoxfan]

Look at the Tigers/A's game last night...

 

Nathan basically threw his rookie 3B (Castellanos) under the bus, and so did his manager Ausmus.

 

It's Nathan's job to pitch over mistakes or "could have/should have" been outs.

 

In the end, a closer is defined by his performance in those situations, like it or not.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that even though Belisario's pitched in some difficult circumstances/situations, and that's uncontrollable on his part...his performance after a mistake happens is controllable.

 

The White Sox won the game, everyone went home happy and Sierra had a nice "comeback/redemption" moment, but both the defense and the pitching needs to be better for this team to make it to the next level. Granted, it's a bit unfair to get all over Belisario, he was never expected to close a single game for the White Sox when he was signed as a bounceback candidate, but that's the situation now that he's facing.

 

Assume Belisario is going to get 70 appearances this year. You are justifying removing him from the closer's role based on 2.86% if those appearances.

 

He's absolutely the best pitcher in the bullpen, and if you want the best pitcher in closing situations, then he's the right guy for the job and you show a little faith in your employees and move on.

[caulfield12]

By that logic, he won the game, so he did his job.

 

 

This is starting to sound like all the arguments about Bobby Jenks his last couple of seasons with the Sox, lol.

[Eminor3rd]

By that logic, he won the game, so he did his job.

 

[witesoxfan]

This is starting to sound like all the arguments about Bobby Jenks his last couple of seasons with the Sox, lol.

 

No it's not.

[southsider2k5]

This is starting to sound like all the arguments about Bobby Jenks his last couple of seasons with the Sox, lol.

 

At the end of the day, if Dunn makes a good throw to second base, Bellisario probably a 9th where he sees three batters. The defensive play not being made left the runner out there, and it ended up being the run that scored.

[Dick Allen]

Belly's problem is he did give up a couple of hits in a one run game and has been pretty shaky since assuming the closer's role. Last night, Dunn's throw did hurt, and if it was executed correctly, Belly more than likely would have recorded the save.

 

Belli's ERA in the 9th inning is 9.82 in 8 appearances.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

What's more troubling is his reaction to pitching without any days of rest.

 

As a closer, you just have to be ready to go back to back...and even back to back to back.

 

With 77 appearances last year, and the Dodgers basically letting him walk, you have to know that durability/stamina is a concern.

 

Runners in scoring position, 2 outs, opposing batters are 8/17 with a 1.056 OPS.

Pitching on 0 days of rest, opposing batters are putting up a 946 OPS is almost 50 AB's.

[witesoxfan]

What's more troubling is his reaction to pitching without any days of rest.

 

As a closer, you just have to be ready to go back to back...and even back to back to back.

 

With 77 appearances last year, and the Dodgers basically letting him walk, you have to know that durability/stamina is a concern.

 

Runners in scoring position, 2 outs, opposing batters are 8/17 with a 1.056 OPS.

Pitching on 0 days of rest, opposing batters are putting up a 946 OPS is almost 50 AB's.

 

I believe much of that had to attitude and off the field issues, not effectiveness.

[Dick Allen]

One thing we all can agree on is Bellisario is one goofy looking man. He probably even looks goofier without a baseball hat as it appears he is sporting a mohawk.

[caulfield12]

I believe much of that had to attitude and off the field issues, not effectiveness.

 

 

Well, I guess they're interrelated, the DUI and cocaine use, etc.

 

Change of scenery guy, wasn't totally reliable last year....lot of appearances and mileage on that arm. An ERA of almost 4 is pretty high for a relief pitcher in the NL West, where you have those huge ballparks.