Paulino removed from Rehab assignment

[LDF]

I was being sarcastic about Ubaldo, but when the team is rebuilding or retooling, they need to take

chances on stuff guys. You do that and you occasionally end up with Rick White or Mike Jackson, or

you sometimes get a Cliff Politte or Tom Gordon or JJ Putz or Esteban Loaiza. In the end, if you lose it,

you lose it and you move on.

 

 

it was a good gamble that failed, and it was expensive. but ...... what happened if it worked? 1 thing I noticed

is with the cupboard is bare, all this minor little gambles will look huge.

 

with ref to his visit to the dl ... I remember a player, I believe we got in return for the kip wells trade lost something

like 10+ games and he mysterious went to the dl as well. to save him the embarrassment of losing more.

[Dick Allen]

It's Rick Hahn. If he misses more than he hits, he'll be fired. Put the pitchfork away and save it for situations that will actually affect our ability to compete. Like if we had signed Ubaldo or something.

I see what you did there. I am absolutely shocked the moderators will let that slide. It is kind of funny the saber boys are ignoring his advanced numbers. His FIP xFIP and WAR don't suggest in the least he would hurt the Sox chances of competing. Why are you ignoring those numbers?

Edited May 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

I see what you did there. I am absolutely shocked the moderators will let that slide. It is kind of funny the saber boys are ignoring his advanced numbers. His FIP xFIP and WAR don't suggest in the least he would hurt the Sox chances of competing. Why are you ignoring those numbers?

 

Are you referring to his significantly worse-than-average 4.22 FIP? Or his slightly less, but still worse-than-average 3.97 xFIP? Is it the worse-than-average 1.82 K/BB? The reliever-esque 4.50 BB/9? Is it his declining K rate? Or that he's averaging 5.6 innings per start?

 

Oh, it must be the 2 MPH drop in his average fastball velocity.

 

Honestly, Dick Allen, I can't even squint and find a reason to argue he isn't having a bad season. I'm sure you'll find some way to continue arguing, though.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[caulfield12]

it was a good gamble that failed, and it was expensive. but ...... what happened if it worked? 1 thing I noticed

is with the cupboard is bare, all this minor little gambles will look huge.

 

with ref to his visit to the dl ... I remember a player, I believe we got in return for the kip wells trade lost something

like 10+ games and he mysterious went to the dl as well. to save him the embarrassment of losing more.

 

 

Todd Don't Call Me Lionel or Nicole Ritchie

[Dick Allen]

Are you referring to his significantly worse-than-average 4.22 FIP? Or his slightly less, but still worse-than-average 3.97 xFIP? Is it the worse-than-average 1.82 K/BB? The reliever-esque 4.50 BB/9? Is it his declining K rate? Or that he's averaging 5.6 innings per start?

 

Oh, it must be the 2 MPH drop in his average fastball velocity.

 

Honestly, Dick Allen, I can't even squint and find a reason to argue he isn't having a bad season. I'm sure you'll find some way to continue arguing, though.

What are Paulino's, Noesi's and Carroll's numbers? You said Ubaldo, and it was a troll to continue an argument I am sure, would hurt the White Sox chances of competing. Yet guys doing worse have pitched and the White Sox have competed.

 

I also believe moving forward, Jimenez will pitch better. But he hasn't exactly been vomit-inducing like was mentioned some other time before. And he put together a few really nice starts.

[Eminor3rd]

What are Paulino's, Noesi's and Carroll's numbers? You said Ubaldo, and it was a troll to continue an argument I am sure, would hurt the White Sox chances of competing. Yet guys doing worse have pitched and the White Sox have competed.

 

I also believe moving forward, Jimenez will pitch better. But he hasn't exactly been vomit-inducing like was mentioned some other time before. And he put together a few really nice starts.

 

Paulino, Noesi, Carroll = bad and free and expendable any day.

 

Ubaldo = bad and so expensive that he affects a team's ability to spend going forward. And locked in for multiple years.

 

"Not exactly vomit-inducing and has put together a few really nice starts" is not good enough for the productive end of a 4 yr/$50m contract.

 

How are we still arguing about this?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Paulino, Noesi, Carroll = bad and free and expendable any day.

 

Ubaldo = bad and so expensive that he affects a team's ability to spend going forward. And locked in for multiple years.

 

"Not exactly vomit-inducing and has put together a few really nice starts" is not good enough for the productive end of a 4 yr/$50m contract.

 

How are we still arguing about this?

Quintana and Sale are the only Sox starters with a lower xFIP than Jimenez this season. That doesn't sound like ruining the team's ability to compete.

 

 

 

 

[Feeky Magee]

We would have also had to give up the #44 pick in what is seen as a very deep draft

[Dick Allen]

We would have also had to give up the #44 pick in what is seen as a very deep draft

The draft isn't supposed to be all that strong, and is high school heavy. I got in trouble for pointing out taking a HS kid in the second round, chances are he won't be able to help you , if at all, until 2019 or 2020.

 

The Sox compensation for signing a QO free agent, wasn't going to be much lower ever. To get one next offseason, they probably will have to give up a first round pick. They gave up a first rounder for Dunn.

[Eminor3rd]

Quintana and Sale are the only Sox starters with a lower xFIP than Jimenez this season.

 

That doesn't make it a good idea to pay a below average starter $50m.

 

That doesn't sound like ruining the team's ability to compete.

 

That's not what I said. This is what I said:

 

It's Rick Hahn. If he misses more than he hits, he'll be fired. Put the pitchfork away and save it for situations that will actually affect our ability to compete. Like if we had signed Ubaldo or something.

 

What this means is that greg should not call for Hahn's head over missing on a player that can be released at no cost. He should call for Hahn's head on a player that will cost enough to hamper the team's ability to make moves (and thus compete) going forward. Ubaldo, who is making $50m over several years, falls into that category. That would be a miss that will hurt us this year, next year, and the year after that.

 

 

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

The draft isn't supposed to be all that strong, and is high school heavy. I got in trouble for pointing out taking a HS kid in the second round, chances are he won't be able to help you , if at all, until 2019 or 2020.

 

I just listened to Jason Parks say this is a "very deep draft" on a podcast last night.

 

They gave up a first rounder for Dunn.

 

Does that make you think they should do it again?

[caulfield12]

The draft isn't supposed to be all that strong, and is high school heavy. I got in trouble for pointing out taking a HS kid in the second round, chances are he won't be able to help you , if at all, until 2019 or 2020.

 

The Sox compensation for signing a QO free agent, wasn't going to be much lower ever. To get one next offseason, they probably will have to give up a first round pick. They gave up a first rounder for Dunn.

 

 

Or they could sign Kendrys Morales, after the draft.

 

The problem is they would have to sign him to a deal through at least 2015, if not 2016 (with the idea of Dunn being traded and Morales replacing him).

 

But then how much are you willing to pay Morales? He already turned down that $14.1 million/one year offer from the Mariners, so you're looking at paying him essentially the same as Dunn, albeit on a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 year deal instead of 4.

[Dick Allen]

I just listened to Jason Parks say this is a "very deep draft" on a podcast last night.

 

 

 

Does that make you think they should do it again?

The scout I read was quoted as saying the draft was stronger than last year, but not that great and high school heavy. Maybe Jason Parks is correct and the Sox will get a star with the second round pick and I will be the biggest fool ever to walk the face of the earth.

 

I thought they should surrender the second round pick. Signing those players in the future will cost a 1st rounder which was one of the reasons I have stated for getting it done then.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

The draft isn't supposed to be all that strong, and is high school heavy. I got in trouble for pointing out taking a HS kid in the second round, chances are he won't be able to help you , if at all, until 2019 or 2020.

 

The Sox compensation for signing a QO free agent, wasn't going to be much lower ever. To get one next offseason, they probably will have to give up a first round pick. They gave up a first rounder for Dunn.

 

Or that high schooler could (indirectly) help the Sox out as early as next year. If the Marlins and Sox had the basic pieces together for a Stanton trade right now, and the Marlins said "the last piece we need in the deal is Tyler Danish," do you think anybody in their right mind in that front office is going to say "No, we can't give him because he might help us out any time between 2017 and 2019"? Of course they'd include him.

 

That pick is incredibly valuable whether it's a high school or college prospect.

 

Beyond that, the compensation is not the end all, be all. It's the perceived value of the talent acquired. No matter what happens, I strongly doubt the difference between making the playoffs and not this season is going to be determined by Jimenez/Santana. In the coming years, I also doubt that would be the difference, but it's something they can approach at that point with other mid rotation starters. However, at this point, the team was just not close enough to competing. Because of the age of those two, it can be reasonably expected that their performance will continue to worsen over the life of that contract, which means their added value decreases as well and they are more easily replaced by a player like Hector Noesi, or, in the case of Ervin Santana, have absolutely nothing to show for him following this year anyways. Had the Sox theoretically needed to give up a 2nd round pick to sign either Abreu or Tanaka, nobody would have been THAT upset. It was always about giving money to a diminishing product and, to this point, we have seen that play out as predicted.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

The scout I read was quoted as saying the draft was stronger than last year, but not that great and high school heavy. Maybe Jason Parks is correct and the Sox will get a star with the second round pick and I will be the biggest fool ever to walk the face of the earth.

 

I thought they should surrender the second round pick. Signing those players in the future will cost a 1st rounder.

 

Yeah, draft pick comp is going to be pretty interesting going forward. There's a ton of reason to believe it'll be reworked significantly in the next CBA, but considering all the onus for change will come from the Player's Association, I'd be shocked if the cost didn't end up being LESS to the signing team in order to avoid stripping leverage from the free agents.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the next iteration will keep the comp pick for the QO team but remove the lost pick from the signing team.

 

Who knows though.

[witesoxfan]

Yeah, draft pick comp is going to be pretty interesting going forward. There's a ton of reason to believe it'll be reworked significantly in the next CBA, but considering all the onus for change will come from the Player's Association, I'd be shocked if the cost didn't end up being LESS to the signing team in order to avoid stripping leverage from the free agents.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say the next iteration will keep the comp pick for the QO team but remove the lost pick from the signing team.

 

Who knows though.

 

I think either that or giving different levels of QO (say a $14 million for a 1st/2nd, $10 mill for a 3rd or 4th, $6 mill for a 7th, something like that).

[caulfield12]

Rock/Bucket, etc.

 

Did anyone hear of the White Sox looking at the 2nd tier of FA starters (Tim Hudson, Kazmir, Phil Hughes, Feldman, Haren, Josh Johnson) in a serious way?

 

Nolasco was discussed a bit, I know...at least around here.

[T R U]

It was a gamble. Suggesting it was anything else is ludicrous. Maybe they should have signed Ubaldo.

 

You're both right and wrong. Signing anyone is technically a "gamble". Signing Paulino wasn't a "Were going to sign this guy, send him to Charlotte, and maybe hit lighting in a bottle." gamble. He was a "This guy is a part of our major league rotation." gamble. Yuck.

[Dick Allen]

Rock/Bucket, etc.

 

Did anyone hear of the White Sox looking at the 2nd tier of FA starters (Tim Hudson, Kazmir, Phil Hughes, Feldman, Haren, Josh Johnson) in a serious way?

 

Nolasco was discussed a bit, I know...at least around here.

I read the Sox were definitely talking to Josh Johnson. Dodged a bullet there.

[witesoxfan]

You're both right and wrong. Signing anyone is technically a "gamble". Signing Paulino wasn't a "Were going to sign this guy, send him to Charlotte, and maybe hit lighting in a bottle." gamble. He was a "This guy is a part of our major league rotation." gamble. Yuck.

 

Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you. Paulino has good stuff, but he showed absolutely no command of it whatsoever. Sometimes you get guys like that and something snaps and they turn into good pitchers. That wasn't the case for Paulino.

[Eminor3rd]

You're both right and wrong. Signing anyone is technically a "gamble". Signing Paulino wasn't a "Were going to sign this guy, send him to Charlotte, and maybe hit lighting in a bottle." gamble. He was a "This guy is a part of our major league rotation." gamble. Yuck.

 

I don't think that's true. I think they signed Paulino to be the former, and then failed to put together enough depth to avoid him being in the rotation. That's where the criticism belongs, IMO.

[witesoxfan]

FWIW, hindsight is everything. I mention it a lot, but here's the thread

 

Sox sign Felipe Paulino

[T R U]

I don't think that's true. I think they signed Paulino to be the former, and then failed to put together enough depth to avoid him being in the rotation. That's where the criticism belongs, IMO.

 

Maybe, but can that be confirmed? You think they liked Paulino over Reinzo as 5th starter? That would have to be true if the intention was for Paulino to be in Charlotte but it didnt work out that way.

[Eminor3rd]

Maybe, but can that be confirmed? You think they liked Paulino over Reinzo as 5th starter? That would have to be true if the intention was for Paulino to be in Charlotte but it didnt work out that way.

 

Nah, can't confirm it, but given that it happened so early in the offseason, I think it's a fairly safe bet that they didn't think, "okay, that's it. No more need for pitching."

[witesoxfan]

They were in on Tanaka until the end and believed they had a competitive offer (which I'm sure they did). They absolutely were looking for more pitching.