Paulino removed from Rehab assignment

[cabiness42]

You make it salary/WAR, and you have a deal, since that's the entire point of anybody's argument anyway.

 

If we really want to make it fair, it's the salary/WAR of Jimenez vs the salary/WAR of Noesi + the salary/WAR of the second round draft pick.

[witesoxfan]

If we really want to make it fair, it's the salary/WAR of Jimenez vs the salary/WAR of Noesi + the salary/WAR of the second round draft pick.

 

or salary/WAR of Noesi + anybody else who starts for minimum salary at the back end of the rotation for the White Sox

 

But yes, that point is also valid.

Edited May 30, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Dick Allen]

You make it salary/WAR, and you have a deal, since that's the entire point of anybody's argument anyway.

 

You know what, even that's a silly agreement, since if Noesi bombs, the Sox can just DFA him, whereas if Jimenez bombs, the Orioles are stuck.

 

Nope, you know what, forget you and Jimenez. I can't believe you're still this hung up on him.

Considering you were using ERA to rank relief pitchers of all things and never even mentioned salary when telling us Addison Reed was really a middle reliever, I am shocked now ERA doesn't mean anything.

 

And why are so many people hung up on salary? Are you an heir to JR? You have often stuck up for Adam Dunn. He probably has about as bad of a salary/WAR as any player who has actually played the last 4 season.

 

All I know is you did say this team would have nowhere near the record it has without Adam Dunn.

 

Thus far in 2014

Jimenez salary $11,250,000 WAR 0.8

Dunn salary $15,000,000 WAR 0.4

 

 

Edited May 30, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

If we really want to make it fair, it's the salary/WAR of Jimenez vs the salary/WAR of Noesi + the salary/WAR of the second round draft pick.

 

Or if we REALLY want to make it fair, it's the salary/WAR of Jimenez over the lifetime of the deal vs. salary/WAR of the sum of the 5th starters the Sox use + the salary/WAR of the second round pick this year, with an asterisk for concessions made for the value attained if the second round pick is traded or other picks are signed overslot as a result of the bonus pool money attributed to the second round pick.

 

Our collective point, of course, being that this argument is so much more complex than Hector Noesi's ERA in 2014, and everyone knows it.

[Eminor3rd]

Considering you were using ERA to rank relief pitchers of all things and never even mentioned salary when telling us Addison Reed was really a middle reliever, I am shocked now ERA doesn't mean anything.

 

And why are so many people hung up on salary? Are you an heir to JR? You have often stuck up for Adam Dunn. He probably has about as bad of a salary/WAR as any player who has actually played the last 4 season.

 

No one said ERA is meaningless. But it would be a pretty dumb numerator if you were including salary, wouldn't it?

 

You're operating on a bad premise that money is unlimited. The fact that 4/50 will not, by itself, cripple the Sox financially does not change the fact that it still represents $50m of a finite total payroll that will not go somewhere else.

 

[Dick Allen]

Or if we REALLY want to make it fair, it's the salary/WAR of Jimenez over the lifetime of the deal vs. salary/WAR of the sum of the 5th starters the Sox use + the salary/WAR of the second round pick this year, with an asterisk for concessions made for the value attained if the second round pick is traded or other picks are signed overslot as a result of the bonus pool money attributed to the second round pick.

 

Our collective point, of course, being that this argument is so much more complex than Hector Noesi's ERA in 2014, and everyone knows it.

My wager proposition was with Balta because of the Jimenez/Noesi ERA issue.

 

For some people who think Jimenez sucks and always will, you guys sure do seem nervous he might wind up with a decent ERA.

[cabiness42]

Considering you were using ERA to rank relief pitchers of all things and never even mentioned salary when telling us Addison Reed was really a middle reliever, I am shocked now ERA doesn't mean anything.

 

And why are so many people hung up on salary? Are you an heir to JR? You have often stuck up for Adam Dunn. He probably has about as bad of a salary/WAR as any player who has actually played the last 4 season.

 

All I know is you did say this team would have nowhere near the record it has without Adam Dunn.

 

Thus far in 2014

Jimenez salary $11,250,000 WAR 0.8

Dunn salary $15,000,000 WAR 0.4

 

I don't know who "stuck up" for Adam Dunn. I'm as much of a fan of Dunn as anybody, and I freely admit he hasn't lived up to his contract. If anything, he's the poster child for why signing Jimenez would have been a bad idea. I do know that a lot of people "stuck up" for Dunn by saying that the Sox shouldn't just release him, because $15M/0.4 WAR is better than $15M/0.0 WAR, but that's just because the $15M was already spent.

[witesoxfan]

Considering you were using ERA to rank relief pitchers of all things and never even mentioned salary when telling us Addison Reed was really a middle reliever, I am shocked now ERA doesn't mean anything.

 

And why are so many people hung up on salary? Are you an heir to JR? You have often stuck up for Adam Dunn. He probably has about as bad of a salary/WAR as any player who has actually played the last 4 season.

 

All I know is you did say this team would have nowhere near the record it has without Adam Dunn.

 

Thus far in 2014

Jimenez salary $11,250,000 WAR 0.8

Dunn salary $15,000,000 WAR 0.4

 

I'm concerned about salary because it affects what my favorite baseball team can commit to players moving forward. Why WOULDN'T you be concerned about salary? Would you be just a-ok paying Albert Pujols $25 million a year right now?

 

Either way, stay on topic. You believe that Ubaldo Jimenez, at $12.5 million per year on average, is a better investment than spending no money to try and find a 4th and 5th starter. That's the bet I'm making BUDDY.

 

Also, Adam Dunn didn't cost a draft pick this year so take that rubber hose and shove it up your nose.

[witesoxfan]

I don't know who "stuck up" for Adam Dunn. I'm as much of a fan of Dunn as anybody, and I freely admit he hasn't lived up to his contract. If anything, he's the poster child for why signing Jimenez would have been a bad idea. I do know that a lot of people "stuck up" for Dunn by saying that the Sox shouldn't just release him, because $15M/0.4 WAR is better than $15M/0.0 WAR, but that's just because the $15M was already spent.

 

I made one statement saying the Sox would not be anywhere near where they are if it weren't for Adam Dunn. Nevermind that he's been awesome offensively, Dick Allen is going to die fighting for Ubaldo Jimenez's right to party.

[Eminor3rd]

My wager proposition was with Balta because of the Jimenez/Noesi ERA issue.

 

For some people who think Jimenez sucks and always will, you guys sure do seem nervous he might wind up with a decent ERA.

 

No one is nervous, we just aren't interested in how you're insisting on ignoring the entire argument solely for the sake of finding one pointless piece of data you can be right about. Everyone's opposition to signing Jimenez was always about way, way, way more than whatever his ERA is this year, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[Dick Allen]

I'm concerned about salary because it affects what my favorite baseball team can commit to players moving forward. Why WOULDN'T you be concerned about salary? Would you be just a-ok paying Albert Pujols $25 million a year right now?

 

Either way, stay on topic. You believe that Ubaldo Jimenez, at $12.5 million per year on average, is a better investment than spending no money to try and find a 4th and 5th starter. That's the bet I'm making BUDDY.

 

Also, Adam Dunn didn't cost a draft pick this year so take that rubber hose and shove it up your nose.

Then why weren't you concerned about the $2 million they would be blowing on Paulino? Isn't that money that could have been spent elsewhere BUDDY? Gregor Polanco was signed for $175k.

 

There is plenty of money, and not a lot of future committments.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

Also, if not supporting the idea of DFA'ing Adam Dunn and eating $15-30m in salary apparently = "sticking up for Adam Dunn," you're really grasping hard for an analog to Ubaldo.

[Eminor3rd]

Then why weren't you concerned about the $2 million they would be blowing on Paulino? Isn't that money that could have been spent elsewhere BUDDY? Gregor Polanco was signed for $175k.

 

There is plenty of money, and not a lot of future committments.

 

Seriously? You don't understand why I'm less concerned about $2m than I am about $50m and a draft pick?

[Dick Allen]

No one is nervous, we just aren't interested in how you're insisting on ignoring the entire argument solely for the sake of finding one pointless piece of data you can be right about. Everyone's opposition to signing Jimenez was always about way, way, way more than whatever his ERA is this year, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I don't ignore the argument. I have stated it many times. You just like to ignore it. The argument is 4 years and $50 million and a second round pick is IMO going to be cheaper than what it will cost for a similar pitcher next offseason as prices rarely go down and the compensation becomes a 1st rounder. You have responded to my position several times. Why are you saying I am ignoring it? Please. This is silly. We will see where Jimenez is at when the season ends. IMO he would have helped the White Sox this year and in the future. Then by all means call me a fool. I couldn't care less.

[harfman77]

My wager proposition was with Balta because of the Jimenez/Noesi ERA issue.

 

For some people who think Jimenez sucks and always will, you guys sure do seem nervous he might wind up with a decent ERA.

 

I don't think Jimenez sucks, but I definitely don't think he was worth the contract that he got from Orioles to the Sox.

 

The Sox need to continue to load up on prospects and that means taking fliers on guys like Paulino, Cleto, Belly, and Noesi and converting them into prospects or slotting them into the five year plan. In Noesi's case, he was a guy the Sox were rumored to want back in the Swisher deal that the Yankees wouldn't give up, so perhaps they have seen something in him that makes them think he can be a long term piece.

 

The Sox also need to preserve their payroll flexibility so that they can add payroll in a trade when they are ready to make their run. There are still at least one gap on the roster in the rotation and others at OF and DH next season. If the Sox can build the system up to the point they have a chance to make a run at Stanton, you want to make sure that you have the payroll capability to extend him long term.

 

Last season the Sox underperformed, I think this season they have played above their heads, but that will likely catch up with guys like Gillaspie, Abreu, and Eaton that have little MLB experience and TFlow will eventually come back to the player that he is. I think the Sox probably end up at least 5-6 games out of the WC by the time July 31 rolls around. There are too many gaps and question marks on this roster to think that a mid-rotation starter would have put them into WS contention.

[Dick Allen]

Seriously? You don't understand why I'm less concerned about $2m than I am about $50m and a draft pick?

What is the price point where your concern about money kicks in?

 

I think it's pretty much assured at this point the $2 million is sunk for Paulino.

Jimenez has a 0.8 WAR and is still pitching.

 

[Balta1701]

I don't ignore the argument. I have stated it many times. You just like to ignore it. The argument is 4 years and $50 million and a second round pick is IMO going to be cheaper than what it will cost for a similar pitcher next offseason as prices rarely go down and the compensation becomes a 1st rounder. You have responded to my position several times. Why are you saying I am ignoring it? Please. This is silly. We will see where Jimenez is at when the season ends. IMO he would have helped the White Sox this year and in the future. Then by all means call me a fool. I couldn't care less.

And the last time this argument was made, I went back 5+ years looking at the kinds of contracts similar middling level pitchers got in the offseason. There were people like him getting contracts on the order of 3-5 years, $12 million a year every offseason since about 2005-2006. The only way to think there's a lot of inflation in those deals is to think that Ubaldo Jiminez is a whole lot worse than say, Jeff Suppan, who got 4/$40 from the Brewers at age 32 in 2006, or Carlos Silva, who signed 4/$48 in 2007 at age 35.

 

Those deals happen all the time for right around that same number. If there's inflation, then that means Ubaldo Jiminez

[cabiness42]

I don't ignore the argument. I have stated it many times. You just like to ignore it. The argument is 4 years and $50 million and a second round pick is IMO going to be cheaper than what it will cost for a similar pitcher next offseason as prices rarely go down and the compensation becomes a 1st rounder. You have responded to my position several times. Why are you saying I am ignoring it? Please. This is silly. We will see where Jimenez is at when the season ends. IMO he would have helped the White Sox this year and in the future. Then by all means call me a fool. I couldn't care less.

 

That's true, 4/$50M is cheaper than what it will cost for a similar pitcher next season, which is why next year it would be a really, really bad idea to do it, whereas this year it was only a really bad idea to do it.

 

[witesoxfan]

Then why weren't you concerned about the $2 million they would be blowing on Paulino? Isn't that money that could have been spent elsewhere BUDDY? Gregor Polanco was signed for $175k.

 

There is plenty of money, and not a lot of future committments.

 

To the first portion, it's $1.75 million towards the payroll this year and a $250K buyout. That is not expensive in terms of MLB payroll whatsoever, and with a guy that averages 94 with the fastball, I have no problem with that price. I posted the link to the initial signing and no one had any problem with it then either.

 

If you're asking me why I prefer a $2 million committment over a $50 million commitment PLUS giving up a draft pick, then figure that one out yourself.

Edited May 30, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Dick Allen]

To the first portion, it's $1.75 million towards the payroll this year and a $250K buyout. That is not expensive in terms of MLB payroll whatsoever, and with a guy that averages 94 with the fastball, I have no problem with that price. I posted the link to the initial signing and no one had any problem with it then either.

 

If you're asking me why I prefer a $2 million committment over a $50 million commitment PLUS giving up a draft pick, then figure that one out yourself.

I didn't ask you why you prefer. I asked why you wouldn't be concerned about blowing $2 million which is what it amounts to, unless they want to bring him back next season and blow some more.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

I didn't ask you why you prefer. I asked why you wouldn't be concerned about blowing $2 million which is what it amounts to, unless they want to bring him back next season and blow some more.

 

Because $2 million with the risk/reward measured out as good starting pitcher and/or potential trade bait versus 2.5% of the payroll, as a fan, is worth it to me.

 

Why is a $50 million contract over 4 years while also giving up a draft pick for a 30 year old mediocre starting pitcher worth it for you? Seems like a very counter productive thing for a rebuilding/retooling thing to do. (Obviously, the rational Rick Hahn agreed with me, which is why it's even MORE ridiculous that you're still arguing this point, but whatever)

Edited May 30, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Dick Allen]

Because $2 million with the risk/reward measured out as good starting pitcher and/or potential trade bait versus 2.5% of the payroll, as a fan, is worth it to me.

 

Why is a $50 million contract over 4 years while also giving up a draft pick for a 30 year old mediocre starting pitcher worth it for you? Seems like a very counter productive thing for a rebuilding/retooling thing to do. (Obviously, the rational Rick Hahn agreed with me, which is why it's even MORE ridiculous that you're still arguing this point, but whatever)

That is the price of pitching these days and Jimenez I believed and still do, would be the Sox 3rd best starter.

 

That is my argument, and always has been. You don't agree. Time will eventually tell us who was correct. I really hope I am wrong and they wind up better off in the rotation.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

That is the price of pitching these days and Jimenez I believed and still do, would be the Sox 3rd best starter.

 

That is my argument, and always has been. You don't agree. Time will eventually tell us who was correct. I really hope I am wrong and they wind up better off in the rotation.

 

Then let's end it there.

[LittleHurt05]

Then let's end it there.

 

Finally. Now to the important question: Would you have rather signed Felipe Paulino or Ervin Santana?

[witesoxfan]

Finally. Now to the important question: Would you have rather signed Felipe Paulino or Ervin Santana?

 

Trick question. Obviously, the answer is Matt Garza.