Mea Culpa thread

[witesoxfan]

Well you and I were two of the biggest supporters of Marcus being the starter at 2b all season. Granted I do think he'd be fine as the season went on if he were getting regular ab's but so far Gordon has been better.

 

Yeah, I'm not ready to "mea culpa" on Semien yet. He needs to be playing every day though. I still think he could be a really good starter at some point down the road. I just hope it's not with the Rays or Pirates.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I give Hahn a lot more credit for pulling the trigger than Paddy.

 

Anyone could see Abreu's talent. It's finding undervalued guys like Alexei Ramirez and Tadahito Iguchi that's MUCH more difficult.

 

 

Plus, I'm still not over Nestor Molina and disappointed that we put any faith in him, Zach Stewart or Jeff Marquez ever amounting to anything.

 

Keenyn Walker, too. We only know that name because he was the first player drafted that particular year.

 

 

Bucket, who has been pretty plugged in over the years, is telling you that Paddy was instrumental in signing Abreu. Why don't you believe that? Paddy also was believed to be the driving force in signing Micker Adolfo. Paddy wasn't in the organization for Zach Stewart I didn't think and where did Jeff Marquez come from related to this topic? Marquez came from the Yanks for Swisher.

[harfman77]

Bucket, who has been pretty plugged in over the years, is telling you that Paddy was instrumental in signing Abreu. Why don't you believe that? Paddy also was believed to be the driving force in signing Micker Adolfo. Paddy wasn't in the organization for Zach Stewart I didn't think and where did Jeff Marquez come from related to this topic? Marquez came from the Yanks for Swisher.

 

To be fair, Abreu wasn't really a find. There were articles written before he defected citing him as the greatest hitter in the world. I think the hope for Paddy was that he would bring more success in the July 2 market, which as you mention he did with helping to land Adolfo last season. It also appears that the Sox are in pretty good position with a couple more kids this year, so it appears that Paddy is paying off now, though the fruits of his labor won't be seen for 3-4 years.

[caulfield12]

Bucket, who has been pretty plugged in over the years, is telling you that Paddy was instrumental in signing Abreu. Why don't you believe that? Paddy also was believed to be the driving force in signing Micker Adolfo. Paddy wasn't in the organization for Zach Stewart I didn't think and where did Jeff Marquez come from related to this topic? Marquez came from the Yanks for Swisher.

 

 

In the end, he went to the highest bidder, did he not?

 

I can just as easily credit Alexei and Dayan Viciedo for using their influence (which they used).

 

Adolfo's a million miles away from Chicago. We need 3-5 of them every international signing period for those efforts to bear fruition.

 

 

As far as Marquez and Walker, I was just listing players who we were hyped into believing in by the press/Sox p.r.

[southsider2k5]

Some dude named Abreu

 

Isn't Webb also a result of Paddy?

[harfman77]

In the end, he went to the highest bidder, did he not?

 

I can just as easily credit Alexei and Dayan Viciedo for using their influence (which they used).

 

Adolfo's a million miles away from Chicago. We need 3-5 of them every international signing period for those efforts to bear fruition.

 

 

As far as Marquez and Walker, I was just listing players who we were hyped into believing in by the press/Sox p.r.

 

Given the spending restraints, you cannot sign 3-5 of them. You can go all in on a guy like Adolfo and then take fliers on some other guys or you can add 3-4 guys that are more mid-range prospects in the market, which appears to be the approach this season.

[Y2Jimmy0]

In the end, he went to the highest bidder, did he not?

 

I can just as easily credit Alexei and Dayan Viciedo for using their influence (which they used).

 

Adolfo's a million miles away from Chicago. We need 3-5 of them every international signing period for those efforts to bear fruition.

 

 

As far as Marquez and Walker, I was just listing players who we were hyped into believing in by the press/Sox p.r.

 

 

Haha okay. You could actually come up with a pretty long list of guys hyped by the Sox that ended up being not very good.

[caulfield12]

Given the spending restraints, you cannot sign 3-5 of them. You can go all in on a guy like Adolfo and then take fliers on some other guys or you can add 3-4 guys that are more mid-range prospects in the market, which appears to be the approach this season.

 

Well, yeah, one top ten guy...or a couple of guys near the back end of the top ten....then 2-3-4 guys you spend $300-600,000 on.

 

Lottery tickets. Albeit a lot more expensive. And maybe a 5-10% shot on paying off.

Edited May 28, 2014 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

I really thought Trayce would take a step forward.

[Dick Allen]

If the White Sox needed Paddy to tell them Abreu was a ballplayer, they need to scrap the entire minor league deal. They would be beyond clueless. Phil Rogers had been hyping Abreu for several years.

[Balta1701]

If the White Sox needed Paddy to tell them Abreu was a ballplayer, they need to scrap the entire minor league deal. They would be beyond clueless. Phil Rogers had been hyping Abreu for several years.

Wasn't it also Phil Rogers who spent a couple years hyping Salvador Sanchez?

[Dick Allen]

Wasn't it also Phil Rogers who spent a couple years hyping Salvador Sanchez?

Probably. Rogers was a pawn in the Dave Wilder scam. Wilder had his ear and would hype these basically fake propects which in turn Phil would buy and sell to the rest of the BA team. I read a long piece on the Wilder scandal, and how much he used and abused Phil Rogers.

 

But back to Abreu. He was no secret. Giving Paddy credit for the Sox signing him, is kind of like giving the Cleveland GM credit for finding Lebron.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Probably. Rogers was a pawn in the Dave Wilder scam. Wilder had his ear and would hype these basically fake propects which in turn Phil would buy and sell to the rest of the BA team. I read a long piece on the Wilder scandal, and how much he used and abused Phil Rogers.

 

But back to Abreu. He was no secret. Giving Paddy credit for the Sox signing him, is kind of like giving the Cleveland GM credit for finding Lebron.

 

That only goes so far. The guy signed a $68 million contract (which was the top bid by all accounts). That is no where near what the guy is worth, meaning that there was a decent level of uncertainty regarding Abreu, otherwise there would have been a 1 in front of that contract.

[Dick Allen]

That only goes so far. The guy signed a $68 million contract (which was the top bid by all accounts). That is no where near what the guy is worth, meaning that there was a decent level of uncertainty regarding Abreu, otherwise there would have been a 1 in front of that contract.

That wasn't Paddy. KW was saying he recommeded a 4 year $40 million offer and JR was the one who upped it.

 

Abreu has made the next Cuban sensation a lot of money.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

That wasn't Paddy. KW was saying he recommeded a 4 year $40 million offer and JR was the one who upped it.

 

Abreu has made the next Cuban sensation a lot of money.

 

Someone looked at Abreu LONG before KW ever went there. No organization sends their VP out to look at a guy first.

[Dick Allen]

Someone looked at Abreu LONG before KW ever went there. No organization sends their VP out to look at a guy first.

Many teams had their top people at his showcase.

He had been scouted before and had been well known for quite some time. He played in the WBC. If you are saying the White Sox would not have been in on Abreu without Marco Paddy, while you may be complimenting Paddy, you are dissing the rest of the baseball operation beyond comprehension.

[Eminor3rd]

The Sox didn't know anything anyone else didn't know regarding Abreu, they were just in the best position to sign him. No one needed him more, and teams that could outspend them already had long-term 1B solutions.

[southsider2k5]

Many teams had their top people at his showcase.

He had been scouted before and had been well known for quite some time. He played in the WBC. If you are saying the White Sox would not have been in on Abreu without Marco Paddy, while you may be complimenting Paddy, you are dissing the rest of the baseball operation beyond comprehension.

 

Ignoring everything you are saying I said, and repeating what I actually said was that someone from the White Sox scouted Jose Abreu LONG before they put Kenny Williams on a plane to the DR to see him.

 

I also said that if it was such a slam dunk when it came to Abreu, he would have signed a MUCH larger contract than $68 million.

 

What you made up doesn't actually prove or disprove either of those two statements. Honestly, most of that post means nothing.

[Dick Allen]

Ignoring everything you are saying I said, and repeating what I actually said was that someone from the White Sox scouted Jose Abreu LONG before they put Kenny Williams on a plane to the DR to see him.

 

I also said that if it was such a slam dunk when it came to Abreu, he would have signed a MUCH larger contract than $68 million.

 

What you made up doesn't actually prove or disprove either of those two statements. Honestly, most of that post means nothing.

Isn't $68 million the biggest contract the White Sox have ever handed out? I would think that means he's considered a slam dunk. I think every team offering him 8 figures for 5 or 6 years thought he would be really successful. And of course he was scouted by the White Sox. He was scouted by every team

There was a concern about his bat speed, and they had the perfect storm where teams who really drive prices up like the Yankees and Dodgers and Cubs and Red Sox pretty much had 1B and DH filled up.

 

From the article inside his showcase where KW stated he went to look at him hoping he didn't like him, :

 

"If it hadn't been for those concerns, which have since proved largely unfounded, he would probably have been in the Tanaka nine-figure range," said an executive of one club that liked Abreu but determined it could not afford to bid on him. "From the video I saw, he reminded me a lot of Miggy Cabrera. Which now makes me wonder: If Cabrera was in Cuba putting up stupid numbers at his current age and in his current, somewhat slowed-down physical condition, what would scouts have thought of him? Interesting thought experiment."

 

Here is another interesting thought experiment: Now that Abreu already seems a bargain a month into his six-year deal, what kind of contract might the next decorated Cuban escapee command? Rick Hahn, the White Sox' general manager, puts the bull market for Cuban hitters into some perspective. "We signed Alexei Ramirez in '08 for 4.25 [million dollars]," Hahn pointed out. "We signed Dayan Viciedo a year later for 10. In 2012, [Jorge] Soler goes to the Cubs for 30, and then Puig goes for 42 right away. Now Abreu. The escalation was so quick in this market for this type of player. Contracts went up 15-fold almost since '08. There is something about Jose having not played in the States that ultimately made people shy away, and you completely get that. In retrospect, thus far, it looks like it's going to be a sound deal. But you still had that unknown."

 

 

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/.../#ixzz332cAOlu2

Edited May 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Isn't $68 million the biggest contract the White Sox have ever handed out? I would think that means he's considered a slam dunk. I think every team offering him 8 figures for 5 or 6 years thought he would be really successful. And of course he was scouted by the White Sox. He was scouted by every team

There was a concern about his bat speed, and they had the perfect storm where teams who really drive prices up like the Yankees and Dodgers and Cubs and Red Sox pretty much had 1B and DH filled up.

 

From the article inside his showcase where KW stated he went to look at him hoping he didn't like him, :

"If it hadn't been for those concerns, which have since proved largely unfounded, he would probably have been in the Tanaka nine-figure range," said an executive of one club that liked Abreu but determined it could not afford to bid on him. "From the video I saw, he reminded me a lot of Miggy Cabrera. Which now makes me wonder: If Cabrera was in Cuba putting up stupid numbers at his current age and in his current, somewhat slowed-down physical condition, what would scouts have thought of him? Interesting thought experiment."

 

Here is another interesting thought experiment: Now that Abreu already seems a bargain a month into his six-year deal, what kind of contract might the next decorated Cuban escapee command? Rick Hahn, the White Sox' general manager, puts the bull market for Cuban hitters into some perspective. "We signed Alexei Ramirez in '08 for 4.25 [million dollars]," Hahn pointed out. "We signed Dayan Viciedo a year later for 10. In 2012, [Jorge] Soler goes to the Cubs for 30, and then Puig goes for 42 right away. Now Abreu. The escalation was so quick in this market for this type of player. Contracts went up 15-fold almost since '08. There is something about Jose having not played in the States that ultimately made people shy away, and you completely get that. In retrospect, thus far, it looks like it's going to be a sound deal. But you still had that unknown."

 

 

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/.../#ixzz332cAOlu2

 

So like I said, there were obviously questions, or else his contract would have been much bigger.

 

[Dick Allen]

So like I said, there were obviously questions, or else his contract would have been much bigger.

He was a slam dunk if there ever was one for the White Sox considering their lack of prospects and aging 1B/DH guys.

 

Normally teams don't hand out $68 million contracts, the biggest in team history, to guys they don't feel are sure things. And I was talking about Paddy's impact on the signing, which IMO was limited at best. He joined the team in December 2011. The Sox knew about Abreu well before then.

 

And even KW pointed out the bidding was all JR.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

This post, to me, looks like you made a statement:

 

Isn't $68 million the biggest contract the White Sox have ever handed out? I would think that means he's considered a slam dunk. I think every team offering him 8 figures for 5 or 6 years thought he would be really successful.

 

...and then went out and found evidence directly to the contrary:

 

"We signed Alexei Ramirez in '08 for 4.25 [million dollars]," Hahn pointed out. "We signed Dayan Viciedo a year later for 10. In 2012, [Jorge] Soler goes to the Cubs for 30, and then Puig goes for 42 right away. Now Abreu. The escalation was so quick in this market for this type of player. Contracts went up 15-fold almost since '08. There is something about Jose having not played in the States that ultimately made people shy away, and you completely get that. In retrospect, thus far, it looks like it's going to be a sound deal. But you still had that unknown."

 

Am I reading this wrong?

[southsider2k5]

He was a slam dunk if there ever was one for the White Sox considering their lack of prospects and aging 1B/DH guys.

 

Normally teams don't hand out $68 million contracts, the biggest in team history, to guys they don't feel are sure things. And I was talking about Paddy's impact on the signing, which IMO was limited at best. He joined the team in December 2011. The Sox knew about Abreu well before then.

 

And even KW pointed out the bidding was all JR.

 

You are telling me that if Texas though that Abreu was going to be THIS good, they wouldn't have bid $100 million, or more, on him, instead of sending Kinsler to Detroit for an older more expensive superstar?

 

Colorado wouldn't have thrown an extra $10 million at him him instead of wondering if Morneau could rechannel his inner 2009?

 

Houston wouldn't have thrown an extra $25 million at him to kick their rebuild into overdrive?

 

The Red Sox wouldn't have punched in a few more bucks to get him, after bidding seriously on him?

[NorthSideSox72]

Oh goodie, another thread derailed and ruined by a pedantic argument. Awesome.

 

[royoung]

Oh goodie, another thread derailed and ruined by a pedantic argument. Awesome.

 

Gee golly whiz I was so wrong on Tim Anderson turning into Honus Wagner reincarnated!