CrimsonWeltall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 03:35 PM) What nonsense. (1) Atheism is a religion just as much as Christianity is a religion. I hate how Dawkins, et al., always refuse to see that. They don't refuse to see it. It's simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 05:44 PM) Good thing he violated the school's No Weapons policy, eh? Pepper spray is against the weapons policy? I'd think that pepper spray or mace would be fairly commonly possessed on college campuses, particularly by female students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 11:51 AM) They don't refuse to see it. It's simply not true. So it's not a subset of people who have specific beliefs about the nature and existence of humanity? It doesn't fit the traditional definition involving the worship to God or the supernatural, but it fits pretty squarely with the more modern definition: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 05:56 PM) So it's not a subset of people who have specific beliefs about the nature and existence of humanity? Not any more than people who don't believe in ghosts, or those who don't believe in aliens. It's a negative definition that tells us nothing about what those people do believe. They could be naturalists, or spiritualists, or Buddhists, or follow some sort of Pantheism, or Animism. Basically anything if it doesn't involve a god. QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 05:56 PM) It doesn't fit the traditional definition involving the worship to God or the supernatural, but it fits pretty squarely with the more modern definition: That's an absurdly broad definition that would include things like supporting gun rights, being strongly pro-choice, or being a White Sox fanatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith I think the definition is a part of the problem. Everybody has some system of beliefs, but in both atheism as well as in deistic belief systems, there are large degrees of variance to which people hold to them with ardor and faith. There are atheists who don't believe in the existence of God but don't spend any time dwelling on or discussing the issue. Then there are atheists who join atheist groups and make it a point to argue with every single deist they know. The latter group are definitely part of a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 12:03 PM) Not any more than people who don't believe in ghosts, or those who don't believe in aliens. It's a negative definition that tells us nothing about what those people do believe. They could be naturalists, or spiritualists, or Buddhists, or follow some sort of Pantheism, or Animism. Basically anything if it doesn't involve a god. That's an absurdly broad definition that would include things like supporting gun rights, being strongly pro-choice, or being a White Sox fanatic. Not really, it's still within the realm of the origin/purpose/existence of humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 12:04 PM) I think the definition is a part of the problem. Everybody has some system of beliefs, but in both atheism as well as in deistic belief systems, there are large degrees of variance to which people hold to them with ardor and faith. There are atheists who don't believe in the existence of God but don't spend any time dwelling on or discussing the issue. Then there are atheists who join atheist groups and make it a point to argue with every single deist they know. The latter group are definitely part of a religion. Right, like Dawkins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 06:15 PM) Not really, it's still within the realm of the origin/purpose/existence of humanity. Atheism doesn't say a thing about any of those 3 issues. Self-described atheists *tend* to defer to science on the issue of humanity's origins, but science is not a religion either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 11:51 AM) They don't refuse to see it. It's simply not true. well Dawkins and the New Atheist movement do tend to approach their atheism with a sort of zealotry that's just a mirror image of the religious fundamentalism they typically broke away from. edit: but #notallatheists are represented by the Dawkins class. Edited June 9, 2014 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 12:19 PM) Atheism doesn't say a thing about any of those 3 issues. Self-described atheists *tend* to defer to science on the issue of humanity's origins, but science is not a religion either. How is "I don't believe in deities and reject the notion of creative design because science" not a position about the origin/nature/existence of humanity? I think you're being a bit too restrictive here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 12:30 PM) How is "I don't believe in deities and reject the notion of creative design because science" not a position about the origin/nature/existence of humanity? I think you're being a bit too restrictive here. The first part is a statement on religious belief, not religious belief itself exactly. The second it just basic evolutionary science that has been made by atheist and religious scientists alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 11:51 AM) They don't refuse to see it. It's simply not true. LOL, religion is a belief in something, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 05:30 PM) I think you're being a bit too restrictive here. I think your position is far too broad. Simply having a position on human origins or any other aspect of reality does not make something a religion. If you think earthquakes are caused by Thor pounding the ground because he's angry at our lack of warrior spirit, and we need make more sacrifices to him to appease him...that's religious. If you think earthquakes are caused by seismic waves due to various events in the Earth's crust...that's not religious, even if the position concerns the same topic the religious belief does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 12:36 PM) LOL, religion is a belief in something, correct? It's a lot narrower than that. I believe that steak tastes good, but I don't practice the religion of Steakism because of that. I believe that the sun will rise again tomorrow (or really that the earth will continue rotating consistently), but that doesn't mean I pray to a sun god. edit: with a definition that broad, we wouldn't have a thing called "Philosophy" because it'd all just be religion. Edited June 9, 2014 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 05:36 PM) LOL, religion is a belief in something, correct? It's more than that. It's an organized collection of beliefs - a system, covering numerous important aspects about the universe and people. It typically appeals to the supernatural and makes positive claims about reality not known by reason or evidence, but by revelation. Most have moral systems, rituals, and guidelines for human living as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 More or narrower? Religion is a belief in something, and that belief varies from one idea to a structure. Obviously people who follow those beliefs in their daily life think its more important or complex than that, I dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 All religion is a belief, but not all beliefs are a religion. Religion is a subset of the broader set of "beliefs" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Religion is more than a belief in something. I believe in nothing, thats not a religion. I dont follow any system, there arent any rules, there is no structure. There is no way to follow it, its just a conclusion after going over all of the possible ideas that my human brain can comprehend. Could my belief become a religion? Sure if people start to follow it, if there is some sort of structure given to it etc, but just "believing in something" isnt enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Religion is more than a belief in something. I believe in nothing, thats not a religion. I dont follow any system, there arent any rules, there is no structure. There is no way to follow it, its just a conclusion after going over all of the possible ideas that my human brain can comprehend. Could my belief become a religion? Sure if people start to follow it, if there is some sort of structure given to it etc, but just "believing in something" isnt enough. Some people have started following and giving structure to that belief. That's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 The point of what exactly? Just because someone agrees on an idea does not make them part of the same religion. Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 The point of what exactly? Just because someone agrees on an idea does not make them part of the same religion. Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. They all believe different things about them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 03:25 PM) Religion is more than a belief in something. I believe in nothing, thats not a religion. I dont follow any system, there arent any rules, there is no structure. There is no way to follow it, its just a conclusion after going over all of the possible ideas that my human brain can comprehend. Could my belief become a religion? Sure if people start to follow it, if there is some sort of structure given to it etc, but just "believing in something" isnt enough. Why do people have to follow someone's ideas for it to be a religion? One person has to follow an idea or belief and they can call it their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 That's fine but that still doesn't make every belief (or lack thereof) a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 07:41 PM) More or narrower? Religion is a belief in something, and that belief varies from one idea to a structure. Obviously people who follow those beliefs in their daily life think its more important or complex than that, I dont. We were both describing the same thing, despite using words that seem opposed. Everyone holds countless beliefs to varying degrees of certainty. I believe there's some dijon mustard in my fridge. This doesn't constitute a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 9, 2014 -> 03:45 PM) They all believe different things about them though. I dont see what the relevance is. Some people may follow atheism in a religious structure, not sure how that is relevant to anything. The comment was atheism is as much as a religion as Christianity, which is simply not true. By definition I am an atheist, but there is no "religion" that I subscribe to. The reason is that my belief is not immutable. It is my best attempt at an answer today, but it does not define me at all. Its entirely irrelevant to who I am. Its no more important than any of my other ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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