One of the worst Sox losses I've ever witnessed

[LDF]

What if Sale wanted to stay in though? Sale has done everything the Sox have asked him to do when they agreed to leave him in the rotation in terms of being honest about his physical condition. He's earned the right in my view to have a big say as to when he should be left in the game.

 

many pitchers want to stay in.

 

with ref to sale wanting to stay, who is the manager?

[Buehrle>Wood]

This thread makes me laugh. I was out last night so I didnt see the game. I misread the first post and thought Ventura pulled Sale and people were complaining the Sox took their best pitcher out at 108 pitch count.

That's odd. The first post doesn't mention Sale. You're hallucinating. You should probably get that checked out.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

many pitchers want to stay in.

 

with ref to sale wanting to stay, who is the manager?

 

 

EXACTLY.

 

He also said that he didnt need to go on the DL. Had they let him make that decision, he'd probably be rehabilitating from a visit at Dr Andrews' office.

[sin city sox fan]

EXACTLY.

 

He also said that he didnt need to go on the DL. Had they let him make that decision, he'd probably be rehabilitating from a visit at Dr Andrews' office.

 

He also said he felt fine during the 129 pitch outing that sent him to the DL.

 

I'm not big on pitch counts, but Sale should be on one for at least the next 4-6 weeks. 100 pitches and he's done for the night.

 

I know our bullpen can be dangerous, but our future needs to be protected more than the chance of getting a wild card in 2014.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Well he personally installed the hindsight machine on the fundamentals deck. All ya gotta do is walk up to the machine, tell it you're butthurt from grown men losing a game, and then it spits out a more desirable outcome. The bigger the ego the harder it works.

 

But don't ever go up there after a good decision because it'll race you home and crawl into bed with your wife.

 

Can we get one of those installed and placed on soxtalk?? This place would be a lot more enjoyable.

[LDF]

Can we get one of those installed and placed on soxtalk?? This place would be a lot more enjoyable.

 

what is not to enjoy here ...... a good healthy debate on baseball, sox baseball. no one

is going to have the same opinion.

[GreatScott82]

Someone put RV out of his misery, please.

 

The problem with hiring a former-player/fan-favorite is it becomes hard to fire them when the vast majority of the fan base will ignore how terrible of a manager he is and rely solely on 20 year old memories when judging his "performance" to the White Sox.

To be fair, many Sox fans were pretty tough on Robin during the Q & A session at Soxfest this year. I'm sure fans will forever be fond of his playing days, but Sox fans are not blind. In fact, I'm calling it now- if the Sox have another 2nd half collapse and they only win between 70-75 games, Robin will be on the hot seat. If they don't fire him, then Hahn should be on the hot seat for not bringing in a better manager.

 

[Kyyle23]

To be fair, many Sox fans were pretty tough on Robin during the Q & A session at Soxfest this year. I'm sure fans will forever be fond of his playing days, but Sox fans are not blind. In fact, I'm calling it now- if the Sox have another 2nd half collapse and they only win between 70-75 games, Robin will be on the hot seat. If they don't fire him, then Hahn should be on the hot seat for not bringing in a better manager.

 

no, not in a rebuilding/reloading season.

[SCCWS]

To be fair, many Sox fans were pretty tough on Robin during the Q & A session at Soxfest this year. I'm sure fans will forever be fond of his playing days, but Sox fans are not blind. In fact, I'm calling it now- if the Sox have another 2nd half collapse and they only win between 70-75 games, Robin will be on the hot seat. If they don't fire him, then Hahn should be on the hot seat for not bringing in a better manager.

 

 

Well if you go back and look at the Pre-season poll, many fans predicted 70-75 wins. Heck 75 wins is a 12 game improvement over last season.

[MEANS]

Don't know why anybody is surprised at this game, we've been losing every Saturday game all season, we always find a way to lose them, even when comfortably ahead.

 

0-10 on Saturday

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

On May 26, 2013 the White Sox completed a sweep of the Marlins and subsequently reached 500.

 

Then the following series, the Sox FELL APART at the hands of the Cubs. We all remember that series. The season was all down hill from there. #RoadtoRodon

 

This season is shaping up to be no different. The Sox just swept the Indians and won 2 of 3 from the Dodgers... THENNNN.... we got Robin'd. Could this be a similar falling off point as in 2013?

 

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

no, not in a rebuilding/reloading season.

 

Agreed.

 

And even though I've "defended" Robin, I wouldn't be at all shocked if he's fired if the play as of lately continues. Way I see it is this is his "tie breaker year", he looked good in year 1 and dreadful in year 2.....

 

But then again, I still buy the whole "Managers don't matter" line Hawk threw out there awhile ago.....Like Greg (Ironically) said in the NBA thread, players win games.

[Dick Allen]

For future reference, Chris Sale at 108 pitches, Robin is an idiot if he lets him face the next hitter if the game is on the line, let alone Mike Trout. Soxtalk would rather see Petricka face him. People are acting like the hits he had given up were rockets all over the place.

 

 

If that is how you really feel, one thing is certain. Chris Sale INAA.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Dick Allen

[2nd_city_saint787]

For future reference, Chris Sale at 108 pitches, Robin is an idiot if he lets him face the next hitter if the game is on the line, let alone Mike Trout. Soxtalk would rather see Petricka face him. People are acting like the hits he had given up were rockets all over the place.

 

 

If that is how you really feel, one thing is certain. Chris Sale INAA.

 

Not to mention if Lexi turns the DP like he should have and the ump calls Kendrick out on the check swing like he should have they never would have even been in the situation to lose that game. If we wanna talk in hindsight why aren't we talking about those 2 plays? Sale was absolutely still pitching well enough to stay in that ball game.

[Eminor3rd]

For future reference, Chris Sale at 108 pitches, Robin is an idiot if he lets him face the next hitter if the game is on the line, let alone Mike Trout. Soxtalk would rather see Petricka face him. People are acting like the hits he had given up were rockets all over the place.

 

 

If that is how you really feel, one thing is certain. Chris Sale INAA.

 

I didn't see the game, but this is what it sounds like to me. I'm confused.

 

Ventura allows Sale to face Trout at 108 pitches Hahn should be on the hotseat if he doesn't fire Ventura immediately.

 

I've looked over the thread but I'm failing to see the fireable offense.

[iamshack]

I didn't see the game, but this is what it sounds like to me. I'm confused.

 

Ventura allows Sale to face Trout at 108 pitches Hahn should be on the hotseat if he doesn't fire Ventura immediately.

 

I've looked over the thread but I'm failing to see the fireable offense.

I don't think a lot of people are upset he faced Trout. I think people are upset because he gave up two hits in the 7th, and then a few more to start the 8th. 95% of managers would have pulled him then before things got out of hand. Instead, Robin leaves him out there. The next batter hits a ground ball in the hole that Alexei did his patented slide to get to, and I don't know what you guys are thinking, because there is no chance he was going to turn two, but he certainly should have gotten one out there.

 

So then Robin is probably thinking ok, they are not hitting the ball hard off him, and he still is coming with good velocity, I'll let him get out of this jam because he probably has a better chance than one of my bullpen guys...the next guy proceeds to hit the hole between 1st and second and we have bases loaded, but still with a 5-1 lead. Except...Mike Trout is coming up, followed by Pujols. Who do I bring in? If I had to get Mike Trout out with the bases loaded, who would I want to face him? Well, I guess my best, Chris Sale...so I'll leave him in again...

 

Obviously it is easy to criticize Robin here because of the end result...but the bottom line is, Chris doesn't have to throw 100 pitches every time out. He was starting to get touched up a bit, and after the double to lead it off, then the base hit by the next batter...just get him out of there. There was absolutely no need whatsoever to leave him in coming off a recent injury in a high leverage situation there. This isn't a division rival. This isn't late August or September in a huge game. This is June 7th in a rebuilding year and you are jeopardizing your most important piece of the puzzle.

[caulfield12]

I didn't see the game, but this is what it sounds like to me. I'm confused.

 

Ventura allows Sale to face Trout at 108 pitches Hahn should be on the hotseat if he doesn't fire Ventura immediately.

 

I've looked over the thread but I'm failing to see the fireable offense.

 

 

It was using Petricka over Putnam as well...that didn't make any sense to use your fourth best reliever. Granted, we can understand why he wouldn't choose to go with Downs against Hamilton, so part of this is Hahn's fault since if he keeps trotting Downs out there to get his brains bashed in, he'll also get criticized.

 

I think it has to do with the fact that the situation was deteriorating so quickly...and yes, a lot of that wasn't Chris Sale's doing, the only hard-hit ball of the inning was Trout's, and it wasn't a horrible pitch or even particularly bad location.

 

It was just the circumstances BEFORE the homer, particularly not getting the call against Kendrick as well as the missed out at 2B on Ianetta...which were both clearly leading to frustration with Chris (not unlike what happens with Quintana before a big inning ensues, normally related to defensive miscues around him).

[Dick Allen]

It was using Petricka over Putnam as well...that didn't make any sense to use your fourth best reliever. Granted, we can understand why he wouldn't choose to go with Downs against Hamilton, so part of this is Hahn's fault since if he keeps trotting Downs out there to get his brains bashed in, he'll also get criticized.

 

I think it has to do with the fact that the situation was deteriorating so quickly...and yes, a lot of that wasn't Chris Sale's doing, the only hard-hit ball of the inning was Trout's, and it wasn't a horrible pitch or even particularly bad location.

 

It was just the circumstances BEFORE the homer, particularly not getting the call against Kendrick as well as the missed out at 2B on Ianetta...which were both clearly leading to frustration with Chris (not unlike what happens with Quintana before a big inning ensues, normally related to defensive miscues around him).

LMAO

 

Petricka had a 1.42 ERA coming into that game. And everything else you describe is reason to keep Sale in.

[caulfield12]

LMAO

 

Petricka had a 1.42 ERA coming into that game. And everything else you describe is reason to keep Sale in.

 

 

ERA's aren't the be-all, end-all when judging relievers.

 

What happened to more advanced statistics???

 

Because Maikel Cleto has been used in similar situations this season and the same rationale was used for it...but his ERA is so low!!! The eyeball test, WHIP, anything would tell you he was right on the edge of a cliff nearly every single time out, other than one really nice inning against the heart of the Rockies' order in COL.

 

Lefties vs. Petricka

14/50 .280 and .662 OPS

 

Lefties vs. Putnam

7/38 .184 and .533 OPS

 

In what world is it a better idea to use a hard throwing righty rookie than a more experienced veteran who uses finesse and movement to get outs against Josh Hamilton?

 

LMAO

We should make Petricka the closer over Belisario based on your logic, since their ERA's aren't even comparable!!!

Edited June 9, 2014 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

ERA's aren't the be-all, end-all when judging relievers.

 

What happened to more advanced statistics???

Because Maikel Cleto has been used in similar situations this season and the same rationale was used for it...but his ERA is so low!!! The eyeball test, WHIP, anything would tell you he was right on the edge of a cliff nearly every single time out, other than one really nice inning against the heart of the Rockies' order in COL.

 

Good question, what are they? Why should it have been Putnam instead of Petricka?

[Eminor3rd]

I don't think a lot of people are upset he faced Trout. I think people are upset because he gave up two hits in the 7th, and then a few more to start the 8th. 95% of managers would have pulled him then before things got out of hand. Instead, Robin leaves him out there. The next batter hits a ground ball in the hole that Alexei did his patented slide to get to, and I don't know what you guys are thinking, because there is no chance he was going to turn two, but he certainly should have gotten one out there.

 

So then Robin is probably thinking ok, they are not hitting the ball hard off him, and he still is coming with good velocity, I'll let him get out of this jam because he probably has a better chance than one of my bullpen guys...the next guy proceeds to hit the hole between 1st and second and we have bases loaded, but still with a 5-1 lead. Except...Mike Trout is coming up, followed by Pujols. Who do I bring in? If I had to get Mike Trout out with the bases loaded, who would I want to face him? Well, I guess my best, Chris Sale...so I'll leave him in again...

 

Obviously it is easy to criticize Robin here because of the end result...but the bottom line is, Chris doesn't have to throw 100 pitches every time out. He was starting to get touched up a bit, and after the double to lead it off, then the base hit by the next batter...just get him out of there. There was absolutely no need whatsoever to leave him in coming off a recent injury in a high leverage situation there. This isn't a division rival. This isn't late August or September in a huge game. This is June 7th in a rebuilding year and you are jeopardizing your most important piece of the puzzle.

 

Gotcha, thanks for the summary.

[caulfield12]

Good question, what are they? Why should it have been Putnam instead of Petricka?

 

 

Answered.

 

And the typical response will be "small sample size," which will lead to a discussion that goes around and around and around.

 

If Petricka's really our 2nd best reliever, then he would be the one used every single time in the 8th inning to get the ball to Belisario.

 

(Note, yes, there are exceptions...where you use your BEST reliever in almost any situation between the 5th and 8th to get outs in key leverage situations, but that's not how Ventura uses his bullpen...and going by that argument, Webb still has a lot more dynamic stuff than Petricka...or are we now arguing that Petricka's surpassed Webb as well as the best relief pitcher on the team in high leverage situations?)

[caulfield12]

Gotcha, thanks for the summary.

 

 

Yes, the key point other than the fact that Ventura 1) believed that Sale was his best choice there despite the unique circumstances of the end of the 7th and the start of the 8th, after the 1 hitter up until that point...2) shouldn't have been over-riden by the fact that Chris Sale probably convinced Ventura to let him face Mike Trout when he was only 3-4 starts removed from a serious injury DLing and 3) the season, as we've been told over and over is basically meaningless, so why push one of the two most important assets to the brink in a high leverage situation where he's throwing a ton of pitches there at max effort (especially reaching back for every ounce of FB left against Trout) when you have relievers who have been doing the job for the last 6 weeks or so?

Edited June 9, 2014 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Answered.

 

And the typical response will be "small sample size," which will lead to a discussion that goes around and around and around.

If Petricka's really our 2nd best reliever, then he would be the one used every single time in the 8th inning to get the ball to Belisario.

 

(Note, yes, there are exceptions...where you use your BEST reliever in almost any situation between the 5th and 8th to get outs in key leverage situations, but that's not how Ventura uses his bullpen...and going by that argument, Webb still has a lot more dynamic stuff than Petricka...or are we now arguing that Petricka's surpassed Webb as well as the best relief pitcher on the team in high leverage situations?)

 

What a terrible non response after asserting that Petricka was our 4th best reliever. The carousel continues because of you. You just dismissed eye test and ERA because of advanced statistics, and in the very next post afterwards you basically are citing eye test. Good job

[caulfield12]

What a terrible non response after asserting that Petricka was our 4th best reliever. The carousel continues because of you

 

 

Just like your non-response about any area of managing that Ventura would be considered among/st the Top 5-10 in the game at ???

 

I gave statistical reinforcement for my answer, and covered both bases of argument.

 

More than anything, gut/intuition/logic said Putnam was better to use against Hamilton than Petricka.

 

Besides, how can I cite eye test when I've never actually WATCHED/SEEN Petricka or Putnam pitch this entire season?????

Edited June 9, 2014 by caulfield12