Trade Winds Forum?

[The Ultimate Champion]

I agree that's as of now the Sox don't really have any better options. We had so many holes coming into this year that Hahn (imo) did a masterful job this offseason fillign as many as possible. Eaton and Abreu and Avy (in his very limited run so far in MLB) look like three legit starters and obviously Abreu looks more than that.

 

Now we just have a hole in LF, DH and C.

 

Gillaspie, Abreu, Eaton and Avy has drastically upgraded the position player talent. Good job to Hahn. Hate to say because he did a lot of good but KW's doubling down for the 3rd straight year in 2012 set this team up for disaster. Hahn has righted the ship, soon we'll be sailing again imo.

What are you talking about? The Sox cut payroll and put a bunch of young guys on the roster that year. It was only 2 seasons ago you should be able to remember that.

[chitownsportsfan]

Agreed. But a lot hinges on Garcia...we all know that. And there's as many knowledgeable opinions on how good he will be in the future as there are believers in Marcus Semien, Gordon Beckham or Conor Gillaspie.

 

If we are approaching 2015 as close to an "all in/we're back" year from a marketing perspective, there's going to be an immediate pressure on him to produce. It's not going to be like 2006 where they can afford to carry a struggling Garcia for 2-3 months because we're already having to replace a Top 30 MLB OPS in Adam Dunn.

 

Yep, luckily Avi is unlikely to hit much less than 270, even if his slash line is like 270/300/380 it won't LOOK awful to the casual fan.

 

I'm high on Avi, I think he's a helluva talent and it was crushing when I found out he was injured for the year. He's a 2 WAR player right now IMO and could peak out at 5-6 if he puts it all together.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Also Hahn may hvae very well dumped Reed for nothing just like Kenny dumped Santos for nothing. Kenny had Teahen, Hahn had Keppinger, salarywise pretty much the same. Kenny didn't trade a couple vets when it was time, Hahn let Floyd and Crain get hurt, got basically nothing out of Thornton, etc.

 

Hahn isn't some savior or anything. He's been aggressive but the biggest moves he's made were 2 extensions to players who already got her on KW's watch and a free agent signing out of Cuba. The Peavy deal we will have to wait on.

[chitownsportsfan]

What are you talking about? The Sox cut payroll and put a bunch of young guys on the roster that year. It was only 2 seasons ago you should be able to remember that.

 

Sorry, let me rephrase: it was a half assed rebuild. Letting Mark walk and trading Quentin were half measures. In hindsight it would have been much better to strike while the iron was hot on Konerko and Rios. God, looking at the wiki for that season is depressing.

[chitownsportsfan]

Also Hahn may hvae very well dumped Reed for nothing just like Kenny dumped Santos for nothing. Kenny had Teahen, Hahn had Keppinger, salarywise pretty much the same. Kenny didn't trade a couple vets when it was time, Hahn let Floyd and Crain get hurt, got basically nothing out of Thornton, etc.

 

Hahn isn't some savior or anything. He's been aggressive but the biggest moves he's made were 2 extensions to players who already got her on KW's watch and a free agent signing out of Cuba. The Peavy deal we will have to wait on.

 

Look at the roster in 2013 and then look at it again in 2014. In 12 months, Hahn took a moribund, aging team that was 30+ games under .500 and brought in enough talent (and young, cheap talent at that) to turn them essentially from awful to mediocre. That's a pretty damn good job.

 

If his only mistakes are trading a 1 WAR "closer" for a top 100 prospect that didn't pan out and Keppinger -- then that's pretty damn good.

[Kyyle23]

Also Hahn may hvae very well dumped Reed for nothing just like Kenny dumped Santos for nothing. Kenny had Teahen, Hahn had Keppinger, salarywise pretty much the same. Kenny didn't trade a couple vets when it was time, Hahn let Floyd and Crain get hurt, got basically nothing out of Thornton, etc.

 

Hahn isn't some savior or anything. He's been aggressive but the biggest moves he's made were 2 extensions to players who already got her on KW's watch and a free agent signing out of Cuba. The Peavy deal we will have to wait on.

 

I agree they should have moved Floyd, but he didnt let Crain get hurt. The guy came out of spring training twice with shoulder issues related to a shoulder surgery he had a while ago. Thornton was at the end of the rope, he was having trouble getting lefties out anymore. It wasnt like both of those players were at their peak and the package wasnt desirable.

 

Floyd, they sat on him for 2 seasons too long

[The Ultimate Champion]

I agree they should have moved Floyd, but he didnt let Crain get hurt. The guy came out of spring training twice with shoulder issues related to a shoulder surgery he had a while ago. Thornton was at the end of the rope, he was having trouble getting lefties out anymore. It wasnt like both of those players were at their peak and the package wasnt desirable.

 

Floyd, they sat on him for 2 seasons too long

I agree, but if we're judging everything in hindsight here re: KW but ignoring any of the "misses" or potential misses by Hahn, that's not exactly a fair comparison.

 

As has been stated 4,324,124 times already on this board, of all the prospects Kenny traded, who are we really missing? Gio. One. Oh wow. When you trade unproven prospects for proven MLB players you're going to win those deals more often than not, and when you're the one trading the proven MLB producers for prospects, like Hahn is now, chances are most of the players you acquire aren't going to become what you thought they would be. That's just the nature of the game. Hahn's made some moves that will look very bad very soon, and he'll make more bad moves too, but once we're a contender again he'll start making better moves, and then just like with Kenny, the majority of this board will hate him for it and call for his head.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Look at the roster in 2013 and then look at it again in 2014. In 12 months, Hahn took a moribund, aging team that was 30+ games under .500 and brought in enough talent (and young, cheap talent at that) to turn them essentially from awful to mediocre. That's a pretty damn good job.

 

If his only mistakes are trading a 1 WAR "closer" for a top 100 prospect that didn't pan out and Keppinger -- then that's pretty damn good.

Ha.

 

2013 had Viciedo and Gillaspie on it, as well as Sale and Quintana. Webb made his debut, so did Johnson who blew up in our faces but was considered part of this youthful revolution. Nate Jones was being groomed for the closers role, Petricka also debuted last year, our biggest trade acquisition came in July in the form of Avisail Garcia, etc. The 2014 team was pretty much already there in 2013.

 

Hahn traded for Eaton, Davidson, and brought in Abreu. Kenny would have signed Abreu himself and probably would have been interested in Eaton as well, with all that "football mentality" and "Chicago toughness" Erstadian bulls***. Hahn made 3 big moves, one of which failed, one which has been okay, and the other turned out great - but let's not act as though Kenny would have shunned Abreu or that the Astros, Red Sox, and several other teams weren't also throwing lots of money at him.

 

So yeah Hahn really did not do what you say he did. The extensions, the signing of Abreu, and personnel changes mainly bringing in Steverson, that's all Hahn.

 

Also I am not sure why you put the word closer in quotes, as if Reed doesn't actually perform well enough to do that job. He's not elite, but you don't have to be elite to have value to a team.

[Melissa1334]

not trade related, but what do you guys think about getting melky for lf in the offseason since hes a free agent? lefty, has speed, great arm. dont know how good his defense is. trade viciedo or dh him

[witesoxfan]

Ha.

 

2013 had Viciedo and Gillaspie on it, as well as Sale and Quintana. Webb made his debut, so did Johnson who blew up in our faces but was considered part of this youthful revolution. Nate Jones was being groomed for the closers role, Petricka also debuted last year, our biggest trade acquisition came in July in the form of Avisail Garcia, etc. The 2014 team was pretty much already there in 2013.

 

Hahn traded for Eaton, Davidson, and brought in Abreu. Kenny would have signed Abreu himself and probably would have been interested in Eaton as well, with all that "football mentality" and "Chicago toughness" Erstadian bulls***. Hahn made 3 big moves, one of which failed, one which has been okay, and the other turned out great - but let's not act as though Kenny would have shunned Abreu or that the Astros, Red Sox, and several other teams weren't also throwing lots of money at him.

 

So yeah Hahn really did not do what you say he did. The extensions, the signing of Abreu, and personnel changes mainly bringing in Steverson, that's all Hahn.

 

Also I am not sure why you put the word closer in quotes, as if Reed doesn't actually perform well enough to do that job. He's not elite, but you don't have to be elite to have value to a team.

 

Compare the team from Opening Day last year to the current personnel in the organization and tell me how much of that Williams would have done. I'd give you Abreu and that's about it.

[iamshack]

Compare the team from Opening Day last year to the current personnel in the organization and tell me how much of that Williams would have done. I'd give you Abreu and that's about it.

Now that's really not fair. Doubtful they would have made the same moves, but KW would have been making moves as well.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Compare the team from Opening Day last year to the current personnel in the organization and tell me how much of that Williams would have done. I'd give you Abreu and that's about it.

More bulls*** from wite, as usual.

 

As iamshack said, he would have been making moves as well.

 

And go ahead and compare the rosters, it's pretty much Kenny Williams era stuff, including Sale, Quintana, Viciedo, Reed, Alexei, Danks, Floyd, etc. but also Dunn. Main difference was Gillaspie/Keppinger at 3B. Since then Hahn has made 3 significant trades (Reed, Peavy, Santiago) and one significant signing. He's brought in relievers and other stuff via FA and the waiver wire mainly, mostly the exact type of player KW would have gone after, big arms, ceiling, sinkerballers, etc.

 

You're just full of bulls*** though. Compare what Kenny did after the 2007 season and you tell me what Hahn would have done. Kenny signed Alexei, traded Chris Carter for Quentin who was on his way to an MVP before the wrist injury, he had acquired both Gavin Floyd and John Danks the year before via trade, traded for Nick Swisher which didn't work out but was a big move at the time, etc. So what does Hahn do there, you tell me?

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

BTW I'm not trying to turn this into a rip Hahn thread, Hahn has done a good job and his drafts look good so far as well. But to give him a free pass on everything and try to argue that KW was a bad GM... it shows complete lack of knowledge. Really, nothing less than that. If you think Kenny was a bad GM who made bad moves and prevented us from contending then either you weren't paying attention or you just don't know baseball. The 2004 deadline through the offseason was the most exicting offseason in Sox history, just a massive amount of heavy lifting. Kenny hit it out of the park after 2005, bringing in Thome, Vazquez, loading the bench, etc. but the bullpen imploded and that team just underachieved despite winning 90 games in what was the best division in baseball. His 2007 pen blew up too and he patched that temporarily with one good signing in Dotel and a bad one in Linebrink, but he made a lot of other moves too. And his 2011 "all in" team was loaded on paper but garbage on the field. He tried. But he wasn't able to fire Walker, to fire Ozzie, he was apparently overruled or asked to give in re: the brilliant Mark Kotsay DH experiment, etc.

 

Kenny was a very good GM & if Hahn is equally as good we will be in a good spot. Hahn right now is in a different mode (rebuilding) and playing under the different rules of the new CBA. They're not the same thing, but Hahn like KW is going to make both good moves and bad moves. The more he trades unproven prospects for MLB proven players like Kenny the better he will be. The main advantage with Hahn will be the farm system, with the new CBA providing a huge new way of boosting spending and also with the Wilder scandal in the rearview mirror it's another big boost for him.

[bmags]

I agree with all of that, but man, the Dave Wilder era is such a black eye. That's something I just can't shake.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I can't ever totally crush Ken Williams. He helped bring us our first title since the 1910s. Ya he wasn't great but could've been worse

[caulfield12]

not trade related, but what do you guys think about getting melky for lf in the offseason since hes a free agent? lefty, has speed, great arm. dont know how good his defense is. trade viciedo or dh him

 

Beware the free agent coming off a contract drive season...and regression to mean.

[GreenSox]

The more he trades unproven prospects for MLB proven players like Kenny the better he will be.

How many of those trades of prospects for veterans actually benefited the Sox? The Garcia trade, when the top 5 prospect in baseball turned out to be crap. Which other trade of prospects for veterans (usually declining veterans) actually helped significantly? Williams did pretty well DESPITE his love of declining veterans....not because of it.

 

The "For Sale" sign should be brightly lit and blinking for most of the veterans on this team.

Edited June 20, 2014 by GreenSox

[The Ultimate Champion]

How many of those trades of prospects for veterans actually benefited the Sox? The Garcia trade, when the top 5 prospect in baseball turned out to be crap. Which other trade of prospects for veterans (usually declining veterans) actually helped significantly? Williams did pretty well DESPITE his love of declining veterans....not because of it.

 

The "For Sale" sign should be brightly lit and blinking for most of the veterans on this team.

Lots of those deals did, but if by "benefitted" you mean "helped us win the WS" then no, most transactions over the course of this franchise's history didn't work. But prospects went for Javy Vazquez who did well here with Javy being typical Javy, prospects were involved in bringing Thome here, prospects were used for David Wells and Bartolo Colon which worked to some degree, Wells mainly for influencing Buehrle. Most of these deals ended up going in our favor even if they did really "work" as we wanted them to. Peavy was another example, he didn't really "work" here and missed a lot of time here, and the deal with Boston came after we had extended his contract to stay. But that was still another move that went in our favor.

 

And when it comes to moves that hurt us, well, most of these moves seem to have hurt the other team as well. The first Swisher deal is really the one exception. But while we missed the boat on Nestor Molina, the Jays got a hurt guy who is out of options and has to be paid to be ineffective, and the same thing goes for moves like Danny Richar for Aaron Cunningham, both failed, and so on.

 

Anyone who thinks Kenny was an average GM or less is wrong, and he can feel free to go to hell, but first he can stop off here at Baseball-Reference to view the trade history of Kenny Williams just to see how wrong he is first.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Now that's really not fair. Doubtful they would have made the same moves, but KW would have been making moves as well.

 

I compare 2007 to 2013, and while some of the moves in the offseason would have been similar, history tells me Williams would have been more aggressive about getting a winner on the field in 2014 rather than looking towards the future.

 

More bulls*** from wite, as usual.

 

As iamshack said, he would have been making moves as well.

 

And go ahead and compare the rosters, it's pretty much Kenny Williams era stuff, including Sale, Quintana, Viciedo, Reed, Alexei, Danks, Floyd, etc. but also Dunn. Main difference was Gillaspie/Keppinger at 3B. Since then Hahn has made 3 significant trades (Reed, Peavy, Santiago) and one significant signing. He's brought in relievers and other stuff via FA and the waiver wire mainly, mostly the exact type of player KW would have gone after, big arms, ceiling, sinkerballers, etc.

 

You're just full of bulls*** though. Compare what Kenny did after the 2007 season and you tell me what Hahn would have done. Kenny signed Alexei, traded Chris Carter for Quentin who was on his way to an MVP before the wrist injury, he had acquired both Gavin Floyd and John Danks the year before via trade, traded for Nick Swisher which didn't work out but was a big move at the time, etc. So what does Hahn do there, you tell me?

 

Since I mentioned it above without even reading this, I think Hahn would have traded Dye, Pierzynski, and whoever else rather than signing them to extensions. He may have still acquired Quentin, maybe not. Maybe not. It's pretty impossible to tell.

 

My problem with this scenario you're presenting is that you're ignoring history and precedent. You think Kenny Williams, after being gambler Kenny always trying to put a team that can win the division rather than struggle for a few seasons and put together a solid group of players, would have made the same international signings and the trades to look towards the future that Hahn did? I call bulls*** on that, buddy.

 

(I loved Kenny Williams and everything he did and continues to do, but if you think he and Hahn would have had this same vision towards the future, you're motherf***ing crazy)

[The Ultimate Champion]

I compare 2007 to 2013, and while some of the moves in the offseason would have been similar, history tells me Williams would have been more aggressive about getting a winner on the field in 2014 rather than looking towards the future.

 

 

 

Since I mentioned it above without even reading this, I think Hahn would have traded Dye, Pierzynski, and whoever else rather than signing them to extensions. He may have still acquired Quentin, maybe not. Maybe not. It's pretty impossible to tell.

 

My problem with this scenario you're presenting is that you're ignoring history and precedent. You think Kenny Williams, after being gambler Kenny always trying to put a team that can win the division rather than struggle for a few seasons and put together a solid group of players, would have made the same international signings and the trades to look towards the future that Hahn did? I call bulls*** on that, buddy.

 

(I loved Kenny Williams and everything he did and continues to do, but if you think he and Hahn would have had this same vision towards the future, you're motherf***ing crazy)

Take your own advice.

 

KW went to Jerry Reinsdorf every offseason and asked what he wanted to do. JR never wanted to do a full rebuild again, remembering what happened here last time. Good for him, good for us. Kenny put talent on the field that didn't win, oh well, that's baseball.

 

Rick Hahn would have done the exact same f***ing thing. If Jerry wants to go for it, Hahn will make moves toward that direction. You seem to have this idea that KW was all about acquiring and extending vets while Hahn is all about young players. This is not a realistic view of that situation. Hahn has been in charge 2 years and those 2 years have coincided with a Sox-style, not Cubs/Royals/Pirates/Tigers of yore/etc. style rebuild. As soon as this s*** is over Hahn is going to be making the same kinds of moves Kenny made. Maybe this will be as soon as this offseason. Maybe the 2015 deadline. But it's coming soon.

 

Also the "gambler" stuff applies TO EVERY SINGLE GENERAL MANAGER IN BASEBALL including Hahn. You're obviously not paying attention.

 

Tell me, why in the world would Rick Hahn trade his closer for his third baseman of the future when he ALREADY DID THAT 9 months earlier in a much smaller deal involving Jeff Soptic? Why did he do that? Because he had no f***ing idea that Connor was going to continue to take big steps forward and that Davidson was going to take a big step backwards. This is how baseball works. Hahn will "gamble" just as much as KW ever did because there are no certainties.

 

Hawk last night was talking about how nobody knows this game, and it's true. The moment you think you know this game you're just being egotistical. Hahn doesn't know what will become of any of these prospects any more than KW does, and when Hahn makes moves to make this team a winner again, just like Kenny Williams, he will be 100% unable to tell if the RP he just signed is going to be more of a Lindstrom or a Downs, a Linebrink or a Dotel, etc. and big contract he hands out he's not going to know if it'll be more of a Buehrle extension than a Danks, more of a Jermaine Dye FA signing than a Dunn, etc. You don't know.

 

What's important is that for the most part Kenny Williams made good moves on paper at the right times, coinciding with the wishes and perferred direction of the Chairman. This is all equally true under Hahn and will remain that way forever, no matter who is the owner and who is the GM. A good GM takes a clear direction and makes generally good baseball decisions behind it, and if you want to blame KW for going for it, blame Jerry Reinsdorf as well, and blame yourself also for desiring a higher quality product in the first place. It's very easy to crap on some of the post-2008 Sox teams which was the last year we made the playoffs, but Jerry wanted to win and Kenny put talent out there. Didn't work, oh well, that's baseball. That's every f***ing year for a good number of teams in the league.

 

And also I like turtles.

[witesoxfan]

tl;dr

 

Pretty much everything you're suggesting is conjecture and speculation. There's no point in arguing it anymore.

[The Ultimate Champion]

tl;dr

 

Pretty much everything you're suggesting is conjecture and speculation. There's no point in arguing it anymore.

You don't read anything, you just pick out points of a post and then make weak, easily refuted arguments against them. Then, once refuted, rather than come to an agreement on something you either pick out a new point and start the same process over, or you just ignore it and try again later in another topic.

 

Next time I go out hunting for walleye I'm going to come find you, kidnap you, fill your stomach with that Crappensteiner, put you out on the water and then turn you upside down and use electrical tape to secure you to the boat. And I'll do that because you are a human trolling motor, and so I will put you to your greatest use, but for once it'll be for my own benefit, and that's because I like to live the High Life.

[knightni]

You don't read anything, you just pick out points of a post and then make weak, easily refuted arguments against them. Then, once refuted, rather than come to an agreement on something you either pick out a new point and start the same process over, or you just ignore it and try again later in another topic.

 

I ain't paying a quarter for a lemon.

[caulfield12]

This thread has just gone awry.

 

As far as David Wells helping Buehrle significantly, it's possible...but Sirotka was also a left-hander who came into his own in 1999 and 2000 and was the leader of that pitching staff, in many ways. I'm sure he also had a positive influence on Buehrle.

[ptatc]

(I loved Kenny Williams and everything he did and continues to do, but if you think he and Hahn would have had this same vision towards the future, you're motherf***ing crazy)

I think Hahn and KW are very similar and would do very similar things. KW always said that there was a time when the Sox were going to have to re-tool and start trading veterans for prospects. However, with what he deemed the core players still doing well he was sticking to the "go for it" plan until the organization felt iut was time to switch philosophies.

 

I don't think it is a coincidence that once the organization decide to "go in a different direction" that KW stepped aside for Hahn. KW did his time and didn't want to go through the "re-tooling" process. He went back to what he always said he liked the most' scouting.

 

I have no doubt that if KW had stayed the GM that he would be on a similar path as Hahn. Maybe not the exact same moves but a similar philosophy. Remember who the primary scout for the big players is for Hahn, KW.