Iraq

[Jake]

Several scholars have been arguing for years that the USA and Iran have very good reason to be allies with one another, due in large part to their mutually strong interest in Iraq's stability

[ptatc]

Several scholars have been arguing for years that the USA and Iran have very good reason to be allies with one another, due in large part to their mutually strong interest in Iraq's stability

The enemy of my enemy.............

[southsider2k5]

Several scholars have been arguing for years that the USA and Iran have very good reason to be allies with one another, due in large part to their mutually strong interest in Iraq's stability

 

Not until they drop their nuclear program.

[Jenksismyhero]

Not until they drop their nuclear program.

 

Yeah, that whole annihilation of an allies thing doesn't help.

[Chisoxfn]

Several scholars have been arguing for years that the USA and Iran have very good reason to be allies with one another, due in large part to their mutually strong interest in Iraq's stability

And said scholars must be rejects. There is zero reason we should be trusting Iran of all countries right now and it is going to end very poorly. This admin is a complete and utter disaster in how it has handled its foreign affairs (and I'll just no comment the domestic affairs). Disgusting. Honest to god, as far as I'm concerned, Obama is one of the worst presidents, if not the very worst, this country has ever seen. But he's cool and on tv and a quasi celebrity and that makes everything okay.

 

Pretty pathetic how the republicans are still so far removed and unable to get a good platform together which would be able to capitalize on this but alas they can't pull their heads out of there asses long enough between tea parties and crazy social conservatives that just blow things up and prevent the chunk of mainstream america you need (and to be frank, minority voters) to get on board with your platform.

[StrangeSox]

And said scholars must be rejects. There is zero reason we should be trusting Iran of all countries right now and it is going to end very poorly. This admin is a complete and utter disaster in how it has handled its foreign affairs (and I'll just no comment the domestic affairs). Disgusting. Honest to god, as far as I'm concerned, Obama is one of the worst presidents, if not the very worst, this country has ever seen. But he's cool and on tv and a quasi celebrity and that makes everything okay.

 

The level of irony of this statement coming in a thread titled "Iraq" is almost too much.

[Chisoxfn]

The level of irony of this statement coming in a thread titled "Iraq" is almost too much.

Take a look at said presidents approval ratings and the general consensus from the public on foreign policies. It isn't just my opinion. And I'm not even discussing Bush who I have said plenty of negative things about on this site but yes, Obama is significantly worse and an utter train wreck. Guy has manipulated and circumvented multiple laws and set our country back. He seems to believe the isolationism is a great concept and what we are doing right now is setting ourselves up for some potential disasters 5-20 years from now. Our reputation around the world has gotten worse during the Obama admin and last I looked, at one point Biden was busy touting Iraq as a big success story for the obama admin (so i don't think they can really point the finger back at Bust when they were busy taking the credit for the position they were in a few years back).

 

What do you want to debate anyway. Is Bush, Carter or Obama the worst president in the history of the US? Either way, Bush is out, so even if you think he is, replacing him with one of the worst presidents in US history doesn't solve problems. He is a complete and utter failure. Again, my opinion but I'm sick of people thinking how cool he is and ignoring his disastrous track record. Oh, he did such a great job for Illinois...oh wait, state is as big a joke as California (if not a bigger joke and that says something given how screwed up California is).

[StrangeSox]

The public generally supported the incredibly stupid and transparently bad idea to go into Iraq in the first place. I'm not sure approval ratings or opinion polls are actually the best way to gauge the effectiveness of foreign policy.

 

edit: you know, that whole "rockstar Obama" thing sort of died out three or four years ago.

Edited June 19, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

Comes back, reads thread, shakes head, writes this post, walks away.

[Chisoxfn]

The public generally supported the incredibly stupid and transparently bad idea to go into Iraq in the first place. I'm not sure approval ratings or opinion polls are actually the best way to gauge the effectiveness of foreign policy.

 

edit: you know, that whole "rockstar Obama" thing sort of died out three or four years ago.

I'll tell you one thing. Never, in my young life, have I heard more democrats unhappy with their leader than I ever have. And I am not touting public opinion to be important, just stating, I'm not alone in my opinion. I won't go into the countless reasons for why I feel the way I do but everything I stated is my opinion and I'm entitled to it and it disgusts me that our media spends so much time talking about stupid reality stars instead of focusing on some pretty key political matters going on. I understand why they don't (ratings) but it still sickens me and by and large Obama is still genuinely well liked (as a person) largely driven by his media persona and ability to rock the pop culture.

[Chisoxfn]

Comes back, reads thread, shakes head, writes this post, walks away.

Do you not thing what is going on in Iraq right now to be newsworthy / important?

[Balta1701]

Do you not thing what is going on in Iraq right now to be newsworthy / important?

Comment directed at the landslide of people who utterly failed to learn anything from how Iraq has already gone.

[Jake]

Iraq is a success story for the Obama administration. The only way we could have prevented this from happening is staying there and staying there was a terrible choice. The threat to the US from what is going on in Iraq/Syria is absolutely minute. Let them work out their differences while trying to wield diplomatic and economic influence to deter human rights abuses. The only way we can lower our international standing is getting into everyone else's business again.

 

As far as approval ratings, etc. let's look at it this way. It's 2014 and POTUS has 42/54 approve/disapprove. 38/53 on foreign policy.

 

At this time in Bush's presidency (Mid-2006), he was rocking a 35/60 approve/disapprove. Bush's approval on foreign policy was even worse than that.

 

As far as our standing around the world, there are polls on this topic. In the Middle East, it's pretty mixed. There aren't many changes at all between Bush's presidency in the current one. Generally speaking, approval hasn't gone up with BO in office, but disapproval has gone down modestly. We've lost standing in Egypt (30% positive impression to 16% from 2007 to 2013 - hard to know what to make of that considering they've gone through multiple regimes in that time). We've gone up and down with Jordan who doesn't like us anyway (fluctuated between 15% and 25% approval, both high and low during BO regime). No change in Lebanon. Big boost in Turkey, but they still don't like us (9% to 21%).

 

"Confidence in US president" has doubled or tripled in almost every single Middle Eastern country with adequate data. Huge increases in almost every single country in the world with the data to make comparisons.

 

Canada jumped from 55% positive perception to 68% positive between 2007-2009. At 64 now. Argentina was 16% positive in 2007, 38% in 2009, 42% today. Chile was 55% in 2007, 68% today. Mexico was 56% in 2007 (47% in 2008) and 69% in 2009, 66% today. Britain was 51% in 2007, 69% in 2009, 58% today. Czechs 45% in 2007, 58% today. France 39% in 2007, 75% in 2009, 64% today. Germany 30% in 2007, 64% in 2009, 53% today. Italy 53% in 2007, 76% today. Poland 61% in 2007, 67% in 2009, 67% today. Russia 41% in 2007, 44% in 2009, 51% today. Spain 34% in 2007, 58% in 2009, 62% today. China 34% in 2007, 47% in 2009, 40% today. Indonesia 29% in 2007, 63% in 2009, 61% today. Pakistan - someone likes us less! From 15% to 16% to 11% (big drop after the whole OBL deal). South Korea 58% in 2007, 78% in 2009, 78% today.

 

I just don't see the idea that Americans like the President or his foreign policy less than his predecessor or that foreigners look upon the USA or its president in a lesser light in any data. That seems like a belief you hold and it's false.

[gatnom]

The only mistake was going to Iraq initially. No matter what happened next, it was going to go poorly.

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

The only mistake was going to Iraq initially. No matter what happened next, it was going to go poorly.

 

The entire post-invasion plan (or lack thereof) was pretty awful. De-Ba'athification and the dismantling of the Iraqi military were really poor decisions. I don't think you can overstate just how horribly that whole process was managed.

[Balta1701]

The entire post-invasion plan (or lack thereof) was pretty awful. De-Ba'athification and the dismantling of the Iraqi military were really poor decisions. I don't think you can overstate just how horribly that whole process was managed.

I don't think that if everything had been done perfectly as described on gold tablets handed down from an omnipotent deity that it would have turned out much better than this. When you hit a hornet's next with a baseball bat it doesn't matter whether the bat is wooden or aluminum, the results are likely to involve stinging.

[bmags]

I don't think that if everything had been done perfectly as described on gold tablets handed down from an omnipotent deity that it would have turned out much better than this. When you hit a hornet's next with a baseball bat it doesn't matter whether the bat is wooden or aluminum, the results are likely to involve stinging.

 

This is how I feel. When you see what has happened from the Arab Spring, and how much effort and violence occurs as the countries try and govern, which of those convinces any American of "Well if the US was involved it would be a well-established secure democracy!".