2014-2015 NBA thread

[Jenksismyhero]

The 3 years before Thibs, Deng missed 19, 33, and 12 games. Then Thibs arrived. Deng then missed 0, 12, and 9 games the next 3 years (prior to being traded).

 

He got more minutes and missed fewer games. I have no idea what other conclusion you could draw.

 

He missed 28 his 2nd season with Thibs, not 12. And the 33, IIRC, was due to a broken leg, can't really help that. It just seemed to me, with Thibs, he was always playing with some nagging injury. The wrist he played through half a season.

 

edit: ok strike that, you're right. That was the lockout year.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

Turning a mediocre talent team into a top regular season is improving the team. He doesn't have to win a title with a crappy team for it to mean that he gets a team to overachieve.

 

I give credit to Thibs for that. I also give GarPax credit for that. Thibs was obviously an improvement over VD. No question. I just think the "overachiever" angle is a little overplayed at this point. Losing your MVP/superstar is rough and they maintained some consistency without him. Kudos to Thibs. But it's not like they really OVERachieved. I say they achieved, given what they had and the s***ty state of the East. Should they have beat the Nets in round 1? Probably not. But it's not like the Nets were the 1 seed or a true contender either.

[Jenksismyhero]

So you are saying there are coaches out there that would have had a championship with the Bulls at least once the last 5 years?

 

When is the last time the Bulls have been healthy on opening night?

 

No, but I think a lot of coaches would have won 50 something games and reached the playoffs with the same roster.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

He missed 28 his 2nd season with Thibs, not 12. And the 33, IIRC, was due to a broken leg, can't really help that. It just seemed to me, with Thibs, he was always playing with some nagging injury. The wrist he played through half a season.

 

edit: ok strike that, you're right. That was the lockout year.

You're not allowed to do a "Can't really help that" while complaining about things like Jimmy Butler's injury, where he was in the middle of a normal game, a competitive game against a solid opponent, a normal screen was set, and he jammed his elbow. There's literally nothing that can be done to help that. You can't prevent a guy from being screened. You can't bench guys in normal games so they don't get hurt.

[shysocks]

Of the playoff series the Bulls have lost under Thibs, which should they have won with their roster at the time, and how much would it have mattered had they won?

Edited March 10, 2015 by shysocks

[Jenksismyhero]

You're not allowed to do a "Can't really help that" while complaining about things like Jimmy Butler's injury, where he was in the middle of a normal game, a competitive game against a solid opponent, a normal screen was set, and he jammed his elbow. There's literally nothing that can be done to help that. You can't prevent a guy from being screened. You can't bench guys in normal games so they don't get hurt.

 

I don't disagree, and i'm not blaming Thibs for acute injuries like that.

 

But come on, this team hasn't been fully healthy since 2010. That's either some extremely, unlikely bad luck, or it's due to the style of play/amount of play, which is on Thibs. I think it's a combination of both.

[Jenksismyhero]

Of the playoff series the Bulls have lost under Thibs, which should they have won with their roster at the time, and how much would it have mattered had they won?

 

2010-2011 they achieved their ceiling and lost to a better team.

 

Based on roster alone they should have beaten the 76ers in 2011-2012 for sure. But obviously there's a huge emotional component to losing Rose in the first game.

 

In 2012-2013, beating the Nets was probably a slight over achievement. But nothing earth shattering. Neither team was very good

 

2013-2014 they totally ran out of gas and lost to a better, younger, more energetic and athletic Wizards.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

2010-2011 they achieved their ceiling and lost to a better team.

 

Based on roster alone they should have beaten the 76ers in 2011-2012 for sure. But obviously there's a huge emotional component to losing Rose in the first game.

 

In 2012-2013, beating the Nets was probably a slight over achievement. But nothing earth shattering. Neither team was very good

 

2013-2014 they totally ran out of gas and lost to a better, younger, more energetic and athletic Wizards.

2011-2012 they also lost Noah.

[southsider2k5]

I give credit to Thibs for that. I also give GarPax credit for that. Thibs was obviously an improvement over VD. No question. I just think the "overachiever" angle is a little overplayed at this point. Losing your MVP/superstar is rough and they maintained some consistency without him. Kudos to Thibs. But it's not like they really OVERachieved. I say they achieved, given what they had and the s***ty state of the East. Should they have beat the Nets in round 1? Probably not. But it's not like the Nets were the 1 seed or a true contender either.

 

That is total crap. Explain to me how GarPax were able to turn Jimmy Butler into an all-star? Or able to turn a steady stream of mediocre PG's into useful players on an NBA roster? Or turning Taj Gibson into a guy who would start on a lot of teams?

 

Getting 10 more wins out of a team then most anyone else would is the very definition of over-achieving. From a pure talent standpoint, without a healthy Derrick Rose, this is a mediocre talent team. It is a .500 team, or worse in the modern NBA.

[Balta1701]

I don't disagree, and i'm not blaming Thibs for acute injuries like that.

 

But come on, this team hasn't been fully healthy since 2010. That's either some extremely, unlikely bad luck, or it's due to the style of play/amount of play, which is on Thibs. I think it's a combination of both.

Unless you're willing to say that Derrick Rose's injuries are on Thibs, then I'm going to go with bad luck. You could make a case that he pushed Noah too hard through the Plantar Fasciitis, but at the same time they also thought they were going for a title that year and he didn't seem to show any ill effects in following seasons. Beyond that, basically every key player has been healthier under Thibs than previously or their injuries have been things like what happened to Butler just now.

 

So will you stand up and say that Thibs overworked Rose or are you going to ignore the question like the last time I posed it. Would Derrick Rose be a much healthier player under a different coach?

[shysocks]

2010-2011 they achieved their ceiling and lost to a better team.

 

Based on roster alone they should have beaten the 76ers in 2011-2012 for sure. But obviously there's a huge emotional component to losing Rose in the first game.

 

In 2012-2013, beating the Nets was probably a slight over achievement. But nothing earth shattering. Neither team was very good

 

2013-2014 they totally ran out of gas and lost to a better, younger, more energetic and athletic Wizards.

Exactly. I would argue that no coach could have won those series. Just because Thibs isn't a miracle worker doesn't mean he hasn't maxed out his teams' potential.

[Jenksismyhero]

That is total crap. Explain to me how GarPax were able to turn Jimmy Butler into an all-star? Or able to turn a steady stream of mediocre PG's into useful players on an NBA roster? Or turning Taj Gibson into a guy who would start on a lot of teams?

 

Getting 10 more wins out of a team then most anyone else would is the very definition of over-achieving. From a pure talent standpoint, without a healthy Derrick Rose, this is a mediocre talent team. It is a .500 team, or worse in the modern NBA.

 

They signed them? They drafted them? The Bulls have put together a pretty good roster during Thibs' run. He's had a lot of parts to play with.

 

And I think the bolded is crap, especially this year. Noah is an All-Star/All-NBA player. Not every team has one of those. This year they have Pau. They've had the best 6 man in the game for multiple season in Taj. They've had solid 3-4 guys like Deng and Dunleavy.

 

Thibs grinds out more wins than your typical coach would. Fine, i'll grant you that. But those extra 5-10 wins don't mean dick at the end of the day.

[Jenksismyhero]

Unless you're willing to say that Derrick Rose's injuries are on Thibs, then I'm going to go with bad luck. You could make a case that he pushed Noah too hard through the Plantar Fasciitis, but at the same time they also thought they were going for a title that year and he didn't seem to show any ill effects in following seasons. Beyond that, basically every key player has been healthier under Thibs than previously or their injuries have been things like what happened to Butler just now.

 

So will you stand up and say that Thibs overworked Rose or are you going to ignore the question like the last time I posed it. Would Derrick Rose be a much healthier player under a different coach?

 

He overworks all of his players, including Rose. Does that directly lead to injuries such as Rose's ACL tear, or Butler's elbow injury? No.

 

And you're basing health on games played, which doesn't mean much if they're playing through injuries they shouldn't be playing through.

[Jenksismyhero]

Exactly. I would argue that no coach could have won those series. Just because Thibs isn't a miracle worker doesn't mean he hasn't maxed out his teams' potential.

 

I'm not arguing that he doesn't max out the potential. But maxing out their potential doesn't mean his teams are vastly overachieving. I think they achieve what they're capable of in a pretty s***ty conference with 1 or 2 really good teams: they get to the playoffs and then lose. At best you could argue that he overachieved by beating the Nets. Everything else is up to expectations for the most part.

 

Without Rose and a different coach, are you (and SS2k5) suggesting they shouldn't have gotten to the playoffs at all?

[Balta1701]

He overworks all of his players, including Rose. Does that directly lead to injuries such as Rose's ACL tear, or Butler's elbow injury? No.

 

And you're basing health on games played, which doesn't mean much if they're playing through injuries they shouldn't be playing through.

If playing through injuries means that the players: don't lose time on the court in the next season, don't lose effectiveness (shown by the fact that they keep reaching the playoffs despite Rose's injuries), and max out their performance while the Bulls have them under contract...I'm ok with all of that.

 

If you're not going to say that Rose's injuries are on Thibs you lose. You're not showing me any downside whatsoever.

[Jenksismyhero]

If playing through injuries means that the players: don't lose time on the court in the next season, don't lose effectiveness (shown by the fact that they keep reaching the playoffs despite Rose's injuries), and max out their performance while the Bulls have them under contract...I'm ok with all of that.

 

If you're not going to say that Rose's injuries are on Thibs you lose. You're not showing me any downside whatsoever.

 

We'll see in a year or two if guys like Noah and Butler can maintain their level of play I guess.

 

At the end of the day, you're right, this doesn't mean much because they're not winning without a semi-healthy Rose. They can either achieve what they can and get to the playoffs and lose, or they can be hurt from overplay and get to the playoffs and lose.

[southsider2k5]

They signed them? They drafted them? The Bulls have put together a pretty good roster during Thibs' run. He's had a lot of parts to play with.

 

And I think the bolded is crap, especially this year. Noah is an All-Star/All-NBA player. Not every team has one of those. This year they have Pau. They've had the best 6 man in the game for multiple season in Taj. They've had solid 3-4 guys like Deng and Dunleavy.

 

Thibs grinds out more wins than your typical coach would. Fine, i'll grant you that. But those extra 5-10 wins don't mean dick at the end of the day.

 

Seriously, if Jimmy Butler was all star material, he wouldn't have been drafted #29. Do you honestly believe if he gets drafted by say Michael Jordan and Charlotte, that he is still turned into an all-star? If the answer is no, the answer is coaching did it.

 

And look at those names... Pau is having his best season in years and years. Noah is another one of Thibs classic overachievers. Taj is another Butler who turned into something WAY higher than anyone expected he could be when he was drafted.

[southsider2k5]

I'm not arguing that he doesn't max out the potential. But maxing out their potential doesn't mean his teams are vastly overachieving. I think they achieve what they're capable of in a pretty s***ty conference with 1 or 2 really good teams: they get to the playoffs and then lose. At best you could argue that he overachieved by beating the Nets. Everything else is up to expectations for the most part.

Without Rose and a different coach, are you (and SS2k5) suggesting they shouldn't have gotten to the playoffs at all?

 

Unless we are talking about someone like Popp, no the Bulls aren't getting the playoffs with that squad. They were left for dead by everyone.

[bmags]

We'll see in a year or two if guys like Noah and Butler can maintain their level of play I guess.

 

At the end of the day, you're right, this doesn't mean much because they're not winning without a semi-healthy Rose. They can either achieve what they can and get to the playoffs and lose, or they can be hurt from overplay and get to the playoffs and lose.

 

Noah is almost 30. if in a couple of years he falls off that sounds like most centers ever.

[Balta1701]

We'll see in a year or two if guys like Noah and Butler can maintain their level of play I guess.

 

At the end of the day, you're right, this doesn't mean much because they're not winning without a semi-healthy Rose. They can either achieve what they can and get to the playoffs and lose, or they can be hurt from overplay and get to the playoffs and lose.

Deng maintained his level of play throughout his entire stint with the Bulls. Noah had the Plantar Fascia issue but came back from that and was #5 in the MVP voting last year. He started off slowly this year with the knee injury but has come on since. I struggle to imagine anyone possibly getting more out of these guys during their contracts than what we got out of them.

 

Noah's contract ends after next season, so if he breaks down starting in 2016 and he's on another team...I'll promise to feel bad for him.

[shysocks]

I'm not arguing that he doesn't max out the potential. But maxing out their potential doesn't mean his teams are vastly overachieving. I think they achieve what they're capable of in a pretty s***ty conference with 1 or 2 really good teams: they get to the playoffs and then lose. At best you could argue that he overachieved by beating the Nets. Everything else is up to expectations for the most part.

 

Without Rose and a different coach, are you (and SS2k5) suggesting they shouldn't have gotten to the playoffs at all?

I equate maxing out and overachieving, but that's semantics. To the bolded, what action should it come down to? I know you're not suggesting it, but let's say we fire Thibs. We replace him with who? Some schlub who's not as good? Somebody who also would not have won in the playoffs against long odds? What's the point? People clamor for change for its own sake without considering what the alternative might look like.

 

To the last question, what I'm suggesting is that they'd win fewer regular season games with a different coach. Under various circumstances, that would mean missing the playoffs. For one, after Deng was traded last year, I bet that team crumbles under 95% of head coaches.

[Jenksismyhero]

Seriously, if Jimmy Butler was all star material, he wouldn't have been drafted #29. Do you honestly believe if he gets drafted by say Michael Jordan and Charlotte, that he is still turned into an all-star? If the answer is no, the answer is coaching did it.

 

And look at those names... Pau is having his best season in years and years. Noah is another one of Thibs classic overachievers. Taj is another Butler who turned into something WAY higher than anyone expected he could be when he was drafted.

 

So the front office gets no credit whatsoever for putting together pretty good teams year after year?

[Jenksismyhero]

Unless we are talking about someone like Popp, no the Bulls aren't getting the playoffs with that squad. They were left for dead by everyone.

 

Oh bulls***. They could have sneezed and gotten into the playoffs in the East.

[Jenksismyhero]

I equate maxing out and overachieving, but that's semantics. To the bolded, what action should it come down to? I know you're not suggesting it, but let's say we fire Thibs. We replace him with who? Some schlub who's not as good? Somebody who also would not have won in the playoffs against long odds? What's the point? People clamor for change for its own sake without considering what the alternative might look like.

 

To the last question, what I'm suggesting is that they'd win fewer regular season games with a different coach. Under various circumstances, that would mean missing the playoffs. For one, after Deng was traded last year, I bet that team crumbles under 95% of head coaches.

 

I'm with you, all I'm saying is Thibs could stand to learn a little as well. He's the old man stuck in his old ways. To me, that's been a detriment on occasion to the team. Would it have changed anything given Rose's health? No, they weren't winning titles anyway. But that doesn't mean going forward it shouldn't be a concern of the front office.

[Dick Allen]

I'm with you, all I'm saying is Thibs could stand to learn a little as well. He's the old man stuck in his old ways. To me, that's been a detriment on occasion to the team. Would it have changed anything given Rose's health? No, they weren't winning titles anyway. But that doesn't mean going forward it shouldn't be a concern of the front office.

The Bulls are always going to be fighting their coaches. It's in their DNA. They ran Phil Jackson out of town, and they will do the same thing to the guy who takes over for Thibs. Maybe Gar or Pax should coach the team. Show everyone how it's done.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Dick Allen