Orphans at our door

[Texsox]

Lately the immigration issue that is receiving the most attention here on the border are the thousands of unaccompanied children that are arriving. I keep hearing some people say, send them back, but back where? These kids don't know where they are at or where they came from. How desperate are parents to send their pre-teen children thousands of miles, on a chance for a better life?

 

We've seen refuge camps in other countries filled with people being displaced by famine, violence, and all sorts of evil. Maybe that's the solution. We sign blank checks to the Halliburtons of the world to solve problems half way across the globe, yet we reject children who have come thousands of miles asking for help? Why aren't celebrities lining up to adopt these kids?

[Jenksismyhero]

Frankly I think it's appalling that the government has basically taken a look the other way approach. It's sad that these kids have s***ty lives, but it's not our responsibility to take them in and care for them. We have enough of our own problems to deal with that aren't even being addressed. Why add to the list?

[Jenksismyhero]

Half of Detroit can't pay their water bills, but yep, let's add hundreds of thousands of refugees on the public dollar. Brilliant policy.

 

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/06/23/nea...pay-their-bill/

[Soxbadger]

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

 

It is our responsibility as Americans to take care of all of those who seek shelter here. I wont forget that over 100 years ago my family were the poor ones seeking a chance in a world where they wouldnt be murdered for their views. I will do my best to ensure that all who want it, get a similar chance.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Soxbadger

[Jenksismyhero]

If they came here without any expectation of government aid I might be with you. But we're just adding more problems to a list of existing problems. It's moronic policy.

[StrangeSox]

I think they're coming here with expectation of escaping violence and abuse, not to get some of that sweet, sweet welfare money.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think they're coming here with expectation of escaping violence and abuse, not to get some of that sweet, sweet welfare money.

 

Probably true but they're still getting it. They're causing issues at border towns, especially at medical clinics.

 

Again, half of Detroit is probably worse off. But that's ok? Let's save the children of Mexico first?

[EvilMonkey]

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

 

It is our responsibility as Americans to take care of all of those who seek shelter here. I wont forget that over 100 years ago my family were the poor ones seeking a chance in a world where they wouldnt be murdered for their views. I will do my best to ensure that all who want it, get a similar chance.

I would wager that your family also had a desire to become Americans, and not with a hyphen. They desired to learn English, to fit in, to succeed. You are fooling yourselves if you think these kids are here seeking merely refuge from violence, although there are sure to be some that fit that category. They are here for the promised goods that they think are there for the taking. Taking from you, me and anyone else that pays taxes. It is a very Christian thing, a very noble thing, to desire to help. But at some point the help becomes a detriment to your own survival and/or well being. Sure, easy to SAY "well you can do without the latest iPhone to help some poor kids". But when it comes to actually DOING that? People seem to want to use 'tax dollars' to help, conveniently forgetting that those also come from your pocket.

 

[StrangeSox]

I would wager that your family also had a desire to become Americans, and not with a hyphen. They desired to learn English, to fit in, to succeed. You are fooling yourselves if you think these kids are here seeking merely refuge from violence, although there are sure to be some that fit that category. They are here for the promised goods that they think are there for the taking. Taking from you, me and anyone else that pays taxes.

This is obviously true.

[Jenksismyhero]

I would wager that your family also had a desire to become Americans, and not with a hyphen. They desired to learn English, to fit in, to succeed. You are fooling yourselves if you think these kids are here seeking merely refuge from violence, although there are sure to be some that fit that category. They are here for the promised goods that they think are there for the taking. Taking from you, me and anyone else that pays taxes. It is a very Christian thing, a very noble thing, to desire to help. But at some point the help becomes a detriment to your own survival and/or well being. Sure, easy to SAY "well you can do without the latest iPhone to help some poor kids". But when it comes to actually DOING that? People seem to want to use 'tax dollars' to help, conveniently forgetting that those also come from your pocket.

 

Specifically the middle class pocket. And then we b**** and whine that the middle class is no longer the best in the world. And we wonder why.

[Soxbadger]

I would wager that your family also had a desire to become Americans, and not with a hyphen. They desired to learn English, to fit in, to succeed. You are fooling yourselves if you think these kids are here seeking merely refuge from violence, although there are sure to be some that fit that category. They are here for the promised goods that they think are there for the taking. Taking from you, me and anyone else that pays taxes. It is a very Christian thing, a very noble thing, to desire to help. But at some point the help becomes a detriment to your own survival and/or well being. Sure, easy to SAY "well you can do without the latest iPhone to help some poor kids". But when it comes to actually DOING that? People seem to want to use 'tax dollars' to help, conveniently forgetting that those also come from your pocket.

 

I like that you think immigrants take away from the pie. Immigrants increase the pie for all Americans. Its one of the most basic capitalist ideas.

 

Now granted, you may not be a capitalist, but if you believe in a truly free market economy, you can not believe in the restriction of labor.

 

But I am a capitalist, so I believe that we should let immigrants in.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's the most capitalist idea to flood the market and make the cost of doing business more expensive for everyone? Really?

 

And where does welfare play in to your "truly free market economy?"

Edited June 23, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Soxbadger]

It's the most capitalist idea to flood the market and make the cost of doing business more expensive for everyone? Really?

 

And where does welfare play in to your "truly free market economy?"

 

Cost of doing business more expensive?

 

Increased supply = lower cost.

 

And legal immigration is more important than welfare. I personally think that there is a very large economic benefit to have welfare, but if the rich want to see what happens if we get rid of it, I can also play that game.

[Jenksismyhero]

Cost of doing business more expensive?

 

Increased supply = lower cost.

 

And legal immigration is more important than welfare. I personally think that there is a very large economic benefit to have welfare, but if the rich want to see what happens if we get rid of it, I can also play that game.

 

More welfare recipients = more welfare benefits = more taxes needed to pay for the increase = increased cost of doing business to pay the taxes.

 

I'd like to see some data that illegal immigrants become a net job producer. I find that incredibly illogical. It's pretty tough to open a business when you're an illegal alien. Or hell, maybe not given how this country has been the last decade about immigration. s***, we probably provide government grants for it.

 

Or are you saying that more supply means more cheap labor, which again just screws people already here. Great, now all the poor Americans b****ing about not being paid $30/hr at McDonalds are out of work because immigrants are happy to make $7.50/hr.

 

How does that system help anyone?

 

[Texsox]

You do realize we're talking about young children.

 

Jenks, you decide what happens to that 8 year old that shows up without anyone, what do you do? Send them where exactly? How do they get there?

[Soxbadger]

Jenks,

 

It would take a lot of time and effort to explain while lower wage workers actually would increase the wages for regular so I will try and explain the most simplistic terms:

 

Or are you saying that more supply means more cheap labor, which again just screws people already here. Great, now all the poor Americans b****ing about not being paid $30/hr at McDonalds are out of work because immigrants are happy to make $7.50/hr.

 

The entire idea of free market is that if someone will work for $7.50 a business should be able to hire them. The problem is once you start creating artificial floors you decrease the demand for labor. If I have to pay workers $7.50 an hour, I can hire 4 workers instead of 1 at $30. Economics suggest that is the appropriate business model, unless the 1 worker is worth 4x the other workers.

 

It doesnt screw anyone. If you are worth $30 an hour, you will make your $30. But if you are not as good as someone who will take 25% of your wage, why are you deserving of more? That breaks the entire system and the result is manufacturers/etc moving to other markets where the cost of labor is cheaper.

 

I didnt read the whole paper, but this Cato article has some of the reasoning behind why most people are backwards on immigration:

 

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/file...pdf/tbp-032.pdf

 

 

 

[Texsox]

Interestingly Texas, with the most immigrants weathered the Great Recession better than most states.

 

The lowest tax brackets actually receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes. When someone who is here illegally without a SS number works that job they do not apply for those benefits, do not file a tax return. When someone legal or who has a social security number works that job, they grab all those benefits. It is actually cheaper tax wise for an illegal to work the job than someone here legally. Which is why politicians haven't offered any meaningful solutions.

 

Plus, our agriculture industry, already hurting, will close down. We already import more than half of our food. Do we want to be in a position that we can't feed ourselves with our own agriculture program?

 

We need a guest worker program that allows workers to come or stay here with limited benefits, basically like the bracero program during WW2.

[Texsox]

More welfare recipients = more welfare benefits = more taxes needed to pay for the increase = increased cost of doing business to pay the taxes.

 

I'd like to see some data that illegal immigrants become a net job producer. I find that incredibly illogical. It's pretty tough to open a business when you're an illegal alien. Or hell, maybe not given how this country has been the last decade about immigration. s***, we probably provide government grants for it.

 

Or are you saying that more supply means more cheap labor, which again just screws people already here. Great, now all the poor Americans b****ing about not being paid $30/hr at McDonalds are out of work because immigrants are happy to make $7.50/hr.

 

How does that system help anyone?

 

You need a SS# to apply for benefits. So the American you hire at a low wage job applies for the benefits, the undocumented worker, does not. The illegal worker buys food, pays rent, buys clothes, etc. without receiving additional government benefits like SS, unemployment, child care, college tuition, etc. There is ample evidence that business owners prefer to pay legal workers and not risk getting caught. But, there are not enough workers to accept the worst jobs in our economy. Citizens do not want to follow the crops as migrants. They don't want to scrape dishes and mow lawns. Thankfully, our education system is creating workers that do not need to work these lowest level jobs. Instead we need to import workers to do that. The problem is our immigration program is not set up for $7.50 / hour jobs. Instead we can bring in $80,000 per year software engineers and doctors.

[EvilMonkey]

I like that you think immigrants take away from the pie. Immigrants increase the pie for all Americans. Its one of the most basic capitalist ideas.

 

Now granted, you may not be a capitalist, but if you believe in a truly free market economy, you can not believe in the restriction of labor.

 

But I am a capitalist, so I believe that we should let immigrants in.

I think ILLEGAL immigrants take away from the pie. I have zero problems with legal immigration and even a guest worker program if it can be implemented correctly. Flooding us with illegals, whether they be 8, 38 or 88 does this country no good at all.

[Texsox]

I think ILLEGAL immigrants take away from the pie. I have zero problems with legal immigration and even a guest worker program if it can be implemented correctly. Flooding us with illegals, whether they be 8, 38 or 88 does this country no good at all.

 

It does Alpha, which is why we haven't changed anything, ever.

 

No Social Security number and you do not receive all those benefits. It is better for the national budget to have a no public benefit person work those low income jobs than someone who has be given a public education valued at $$$$ and will continue to collect more benefits than they will even contribute to.

 

Better (tax wise) for someone to sneak in, work the job, then go home.

[EvilMonkey]

You need a SS# to apply for benefits. So the American you hire at a low wage job applies for the benefits, the undocumented worker, does not. The illegal worker buys food, pays rent, buys clothes, etc. without receiving additional government benefits like SS, unemployment, child care, college tuition, etc. There is ample evidence that business owners prefer to pay legal workers and not risk getting caught. But, there are not enough workers to accept the worst jobs in our economy. Citizens do not want to follow the crops as migrants. They don't want to scrape dishes and mow lawns. Thankfully, our education system is creating workers that do not need to work these lowest level jobs. Instead we need to import workers to do that. The problem is our immigration program is not set up for $7.50 / hour jobs. Instead we can bring in $80,000 per year software engineers and doctors.

Are you just ignoring the massive ID fraud that occurs with illegals?

[Texsox]

Alpha, as a business owner, would you pay $100,000 (public education in the US) to train someone to wash dishes? And then offer them school reimbursement, retirement, etc? Or would you rather hire someone without any training, train them for $100 and have them leave when they are through washing the dishes and never pay them again?

 

That's why we have this issue. (the rest is just politics)

[Texsox]

Are you just ignoring the massive ID fraud that occurs with illegals?

 

No.

[ptatc]

Jenks,

 

It would take a lot of time and effort to explain while lower wage workers actually would increase the wages for regular so I will try and explain the most simplistic terms:

 

 

 

The entire idea of free market is that if someone will work for $7.50 a business should be able to hire them. The problem is once you start creating artificial floors you decrease the demand for labor. If I have to pay workers $7.50 an hour, I can hire 4 workers instead of 1 at $30. Economics suggest that is the appropriate business model, unless the 1 worker is worth 4x the other workers.

 

It doesnt screw anyone. If you are worth $30 an hour, you will make your $30. But if you are not as good as someone who will take 25% of your wage, why are you deserving of more? That breaks the entire system and the result is manufacturers/etc moving to other markets where the cost of labor is cheaper.

 

I didnt read the whole paper, but this Cato article has some of the reasoning behind why most people are backwards on immigration:

 

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/file...pdf/tbp-032.pdf

This would be true if the people were coming here to work. In the example here, I believe al lor most of them are children under the working age. These are not workers thus will not add much to the economy but will take from it.

[Texsox]

This would be true if the people were coming here to work. In the example here, I believe al lor most of them are children under the working age. These are not workers thus will not add much to the economy but will take from it.

 

And just like our debate here, the children are caught up in this problem. I don't think Alpha would turn away an 8 year old on his doorstep asking for help. But it is easy to say no to a faceless illegal out to screw America.